Leo What Difference Does it Make if Reality is Imaginary or Not?

[Derek White]

@Serotoninluv Excellently put ?.

What about visualization? Can’t we visualize and achieve goals in the physical world? What are your views on visualization and changing ‘reality’ through visualization?

@Lento I see a lot of people here like you are misunderstanding spirituality as being about beliefs and stories. *cough @Bill W *cough. You could use them to get solace and balance for a short time. They are pleasurable but cause almost all your problems. It’s a serious mistake on their part. I am not saying this to offend people, just telling them where their wrong and misunderstood Leo. 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Derek White

[Rinne]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, which is why I said serious training of consciousness is necessary.

Not if you imagine it not to be ?

[Lento]

@Serotoninluv

You are talking about the absolute, which is the same absolute whether you view it through your paradigm or any other paradigm. It is the thing that makes all paradigms even possible. What you said does not really change anything, because it's just your way of viewing reality, not reality itself. I could view reality in terms of duality, and I would be totally right as well, but you'd disagree. You guys are skeptic intellectuals who've spent most of their lives doubting and probably never had the chance to experience what it's like to truly believe. And for the sake of objectivity, you shouldn't talk about what you have no experience of. You probably never had the chance to live life from the pre-rational perspective, yet you are liberal with taking a stance on how it is, which contradicts your current paradigm. What I'm trying to do here is to view both paradigms objectively from the meta perspective. I've been through stage Blue for about 8 years, and I know what it means to believe. The belief can be so strong to the point where it can replace reality, and I mean that literally. Like in your case, your way of viewing the world probably seems to you like how the world actually is. BUT NO, NEVER. It is never what you think it is, but it might seem so to you, because you have an identity that you don't want to let go of for multiple reasons, one of them would be because you've invested a lot of time putting in practice to get to where you are at right now, and another reason would be because that's how you used to view the world for a huge part of your life. You've fundamentally grown up in a highly rational environment, whether it was religious or not. The problem with paradigms is that there isn't a clear-cut point between them. Naturally, religions these days have a lot of hidden rational metaphysics. I've worked through those personally. I've lived religion both from stage Blue and Orange, at least these are the ones I remember.

I'm not denying that the lower stages lack nuance, or that they're not more integrated than the higher ones. I'm not even defending the lower stages. But I thought our aim with Spiral Dynamics is to become Spiral Wizards and to be able to go back and use whatever we find useful from the lower stages so that we can become more integrated. I really am disappointed with Leo defending his position as it is the absolute truth. It's really obvious how that is clearly a delusion. Stop assuming that I don't know what you're pointing to, because I know it can't be pointed to. Right now, you, Leo, and many others here seem to be attached to your story of detachment. That's fine by me, I don't care. I'm trying to point out that there's something beyond that. You're simply viewing religion (duality) from your perspective (non-duality), that's why it seems contracted to you. But they both are just mental contrusts. Remember, you can't escape metaphysics. Religion doesn't feel contracted or limiting to those who practice it. Or, at least to those who truly believe in it. The identification they have goes full-circle to become transcendence, but they probably won't use these labels. They might even become enlightened without them even knowing what the term "enlightenment" points to, that is if they even got the chance to learn about it conceptually.

And no, there is no such thing as "awareness". Awareness literally doesn't exist AT ALL. It's just a pointer, but like I said, you're not aware of how you're creating your beliefs, maybe not generally speaking, but just in this specific context. You're conflating the finger for the moon. I'm not saying that you're wrong, you're free to do or believe whatever you want. I'm just pointing out a possibility that I've learned from my personal experience. We could go around debating back and forth for days and we still wouldn't get anywhere. You now have two choices, either confirm what I'm saying through your direct experience, or take my word for it for granted. Or maybe we're on the same page but simply using different languages (and that's basically the whole point of what I'm saying!). Reality is really amazing! Because, since Truth is Nothing, it can become anything!

15 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

If you take construction to it's terminal end, there is One construction and all separation collapses such that Full deconstruction = Full construction. . . Nothing = Everything. 

Well said. That's ultimately what I'm trying to say.

One last thing that I want to say is that when a religious person (dualistic) gets to have a non-dual experience i.e. transcendence or ego-death or whatever you want to call it, they don't necessarily have to agree with you on how to describe it, even though it might be the exact same experience as yours. They might feel One with God, but never describe it that way. Those people who got thrown in pots of boiling water, they certainly were living from a non-dual state. They, as egos, literally stopped existing. I'm using your paradigm to describe their experience, but they don't necessarily have to use your dictionary. They died before their bodies did. Notice, though, that I'm not saying that non-duality is the absolute truth. Because in saying that, I would be denying duality, which I don't. It's paradoxical, but you get the point, I suppose.

(pardon the language).

@Bill W Feel free to discuss more here or in private.

@Derek White Open your mind up. There's a lot more beyond your current paradigm.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Lento

[Forestluv]

@Lento Nice projection. If its working for you, thats great. 

[Lento]

@Serotoninluv ?

I was in a rush for me to be careful with how I articulate my thoughts. You ignored everything I said and merely focused on the projection part. Thanks man!

Edited January 3, 2020 by Lento

[Forestluv]

@Lento It appears you have it figured out and said how it is. There is nothing for me to say. Enjoy the sandcastle while it lasts. 

[Nahm]

21 hours ago, SQAAD said:

Leo Why Does it Matter if Reality is Imaginary or not?  Isn't this just a word game??

It matters because you’re creating it already. It only matters as (if) it matters.....to you. 

Let's say someone tortures me to death. Even if that is imaginary or not it doesn't make any difference to my suffering and pain.If i starve to death it doesn't make any difference to me if it is imaginary or real.

This thought was chosen. It matters...because what if you’d chosen a thought about what you want? That thought would lead to more of what you want. I don’t think the thought you chose, is in the direction of what you want, and therefore, it doesn’t feel good. 

And since  Real=Imaginary i don't really see any way that this understanding could change my life.

“ It “ doesn’t / couldn’t / wouldn’t......but YOU...in the choosing of better feeling thoughts....will. 

Who cares if the suffering is imaginary when it feels real and causes me all this pain?

You do. You care. If you didn’t care, you wouldn’t refer to it as “suffering”. 

Any responses from anyone are highly appreciated.

Create a dream board. Fill it with everything you can come up with that you want. Small things, big things, etc. Anything which you want.

Because there is no separation, and because it is all imagination - and because you are loved now, exactly as you are by reality itself - what you are wanting, what you have expressed you want - reality is already becoming it. This makes it easy to notice thoughts which are not in alignment with the receiving of what you want, which is coming - those thoughts stand out like a sore thumb - as they don’t feel good. Because you are wanting, what you are wanting - whatever that uniquely is for you - you are inclined to let thought which don’t feel good about it - go. 

Every choice you’ve ever made has led to this. To you reading these words right now. No one dropped you off here, no one is forcing you. You are reading this right now, because you chose to. You can use that power of choosing, to create the life you want. 

 

[Richard Alpert]

21 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Suffering sits deeper than belief.

When the suffering gets strong enough, all your pretty beliefs will fly out the window. Then only consciousness can prevail. And even that will flag and wane for most people. Only training of consciousness can overcome that.

One of the grandfathers of nonduality killed himself when the suffering got deep enough.

He´s beliefs literally flew out of the window when he was really suffering.

[Lento]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Lento It appears you have it figured out and said how it is.

I might be wrong. It's working right now for me, but I can't predict the future. I've spent quite some time practising spirituality, so I'm not speaking from below. However, that's not the point.

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Lento Enjoy the sandcastle while it lasts. 

This is the point that I was trying to make. You guys insist that my construct is a sandcastle without acknowledging the possibility of you having built a sandcastle in another form. How do you know that you describing my beliefs as sandcastles is not itself just another sandcastle? You see? You just take it for granted and say that it's the absolute truth. At this point, we can agree to have different absolute truths, but again, that's not what I'm trying to say. The OP was asking about the importance of imagination and you were presenting arguments for why my post does not hold water. I was trying to clarify, and I hope I did. I, at the very least, hope that what I said would help anyone at all. I'm not here to argue, I was just trying to help. And sorry about the projection thing, it takes a lot of time for me to choose suitable phrases. When I'm in a rush, I just say whatever comes to mind first. To be more precise, it wasn't a projection, but rather some assumptions. Take care man.

20 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

One of the grandfathers of nonduality killed himself when the suffering got deep enough.

His beliefs literally flew out of the window when he was really suffering.

Very interesting! Kind of proves my point. Can you name that master?

[Richard Alpert]

12 minutes ago, Lento said:

I might be wrong. It's working right now for me, but I can't predict the future. I've spent quite some time practising spirituality, so I'm not speaking from below. However, that's not the point.

This is the point that I was trying to make. You guys insist that my construct is a sandcastle without acknowledging the possibility of you having built a sandcastle in another form. How do you know that you describing my beliefs as sandcastles is not itself just another sandcastle? You see? You just take it for granted and say that it's the absolute truth. At this point, we can agree to have different absolute truths, but again, that's not what I'm trying to say. The OP was asking about the importance of imagination and you were presenting arguments for why my post does not hold water. I was trying to clarify, and I hope I did. I, at the very least, hope that what I said would help anyone at all. I'm not here to argue, I was just trying to help. And sorry about the projection thing, it takes a lot of time for me to choose suitable phrases. When I'm in a rush, I just say whatever comes to mind first. To be more precise, it wasn't a projection, but rather some assumptions. Take care man.

Very interesting! Kind of proves my point. Can you name that master?

you will find it on google.

i think there at least one other nondual teacher who has killed himself.

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Richard Alpert

[purerogue]

There is path specially for belief, or rather  people who want to worship god, or any deity really, it can probably go out of such norms and can be nation , or whatever. 

Extremely powerful, unfortunately probably most dangerous too, as your psyche gets so much engraved into believing this , that it is extremely difficult to get out of it afterwards.

Edited January 3, 2020 by purerogue

[Lento]

@Richard Alpert I couldn't find him.

@purerogue

What I'm saying is that this so-called "free-from-beliefs-path" works the same way that other path of belief works, the only difference is the one who's taking it.

On another note:

On 02/01/2020 at 8:22 PM, Leo Gura said:

The topics we deal with here are inherently dangerous and could not be otherwise since they involve undoing and transcending survival.

Spirituality is very dangerous to the ego-mind. These dangers are not merely perceptual, they are also "actual", in the sense of physical danger. You can't do serious spiritual work and also complain, "But this can be dangerous". Of course! If it wasn't dangerous it wouldn't be worth doing. The whole point is that its dangerous and therefore rarely done well.

This works requires enormous nuance, care, and intelligence. These are structural meta-qualities which cannot ever be codified in the form of content. Which means, no matter how many times a teacher says to be nuanced, careful, and intelligent, it will not help someone who is sloppy, careless, and ignorant. You cannot make a person intelligent by telling them to be intelligent. If things were so easy we wouldn't be here struggling with consciousness.

The danger of the work is exactly what makes it so appealing. There are stakes. Much like life. Otherwise it would just be armchair philosophy with no transformative power. Changing your life comes at a cost. You might change it for the worse.

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Lento

[purerogue]

4 minutes ago, Lento said:

@Richard Alpert I couldn't find him.

@purerogue

What I'm saying is that this so-called "free-from-beliefs-path" works the same way that other path of belief works, the only difference is the one who's taking it.

On another note:

 

Not really, you see freedom from beliefs will get you past beliefs,where belief will keep you stuck

The point is that you must droop all beliefs at certain point and drooping beliefs that are engraved in your mind so strongly will be no easy task at all. 

Other then that I have nothing against this path itself, I just see to many people who get consumed by their own worshiping object. 

[Richard Alpert]

10 minutes ago, Lento said:

@Richard Alpert I couldn't find him.

@purerogue

What I'm saying is that this so-called "free-from-beliefs-path" works the same way that other path of belief works, the only difference is the one who's taking it.

On another note:

 

https://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/suicide_and_awakened_behaviour230

Note the circle jerk by Rubert Spira.

 

[Forestluv]

@Lento All constructs are sandcastles, including everything I construct. 

[Derek White]

@Lento At my current understanding I don't understand anything you're saying. Maybe you're right Idk. 

Beliefs are thoughts aren't they? And reality is not thoughts so beliefs are irrelevant. 

I think Bhakti yoga is to elevate your emotions through devotions. You can do it on idols, but also on anything in else. 

@Serotoninluv Thanks for visualization comment.

[Inliytened1]

@Derek White you're on the right track - you seem to be open minded and not clinging to any beliefs nor taking these teachings as a belief.  Those are some of the biggest traps and obstacles in this work.   Seems like you get it man.  

[DLH]

“Thoughts” are electromagnetic energy units that are created in the formlessness beyond time. When a lot of them come together they form ideas and then beliefs that originate in Formlessness and burst into Form.  When they enter through the veil of formlessness into the physical, they create your reality in the physical world.  You further strengthen your reality, ideas, and beliefs using your imagination and emotions.  Consciousness’, Beingness, and Reality are far more complex then just the black and white discussions I am seeing here in these forums of Duality and non-Duality.  Most of you are only seeing the tree, and not the Forest that’s in front of you….

Just sharing some “Thoughts and Beliefs”  

Respectfully….

Edited January 4, 2020 by DLH

[Inliytened1]

@DLH nicely said.  But they are nothing before bursting into form.  They exist as nothing.  Nothing includes everything as raw potential

Electromagnetic energy and all of that is form.  It is imaginary.  The kicker is everything is still nothing.

[Shin]

4 hours ago, Richard Alpert said:

https://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/suicide_and_awakened_behaviour230

Note the circle jerk by Rubert Spira.

 

Watch your language in front of my screen master.

What did he do to deserve such hate ?