Enlightenment - or cognate - query - moment of clarity?

[Jackthelad]

So I have a rather simple question, and I am assuming nothing. Like Peter Ralston says, I'm attempting to forget everything I have heard about the concept of enlightenment.

This is hard as I have read a few books on it and seen almost all Leo's videos on it, as well as other people's teachings. Regardless, I have had 3 experiences in 3-4 years where I have felt this same sensation. Each time I have become quite alarmed at the intensity and I've make a decision each time to not surrender, although I'd not use those words at the time it's just I stop it from progressing further, within seconds, certainly less than 10. Each time it has come to me in waking hours, not in meditation, not seeking in any way.

The sensation is basically where I feel a dissolution between all the forms of the world, and I actually feel, completely, absolutely, that there is nothing here. I mean I feel like I am in this endless void, this happens even thought I'm still seeing whatever is in front of me. I see the emptiness in everything. how everything is empty. Last night I was looking out late, around 4am, at some water glistening, with shallow rushes coming up and just breaking  through the surface - about half a foot or so on average - and the water was only around 2-3 foot deep in a closed harbour. The effect of seeing this kind of tripped me out a bit, and I suddenly saw or maybe more accurately understood that I was looking into nothing, which extended and including the sky, and the buildings in the background, that there is nothing, and I am nothing.  There is no me.  

This feeling didn't give me any elation, it kind of terrified me. I guess it lasted around 3-4 seconds, maybe a touch longer, and the best way I could describe it is that I shunned it, or turned away from it, because it truly unnerved me, like I was seeing something that was always there, but for some reason was not apparent before.

This is akin to the feelings I had the last two times previously, where I felt similar feelings about the formlessness and void, although I would say that each experience had it's own unique quality. And the other two times I don't believe I was as certain that there was no "me" as seemed last night. The terror was about the same, though. The one thing that was universal in each experience was my discomfort at the magnitude of the feeling, my turning away from what felt like a surrender (you could use the word "dissolve" here as well) and a sense of awe immediately after which lasted a few minutes, but not as long as the first time which affected me for days. But it was a weird and wonderful reminder. 

Incidentally, I have not been trying to have any experiences, and meditate infrequently if I do at all, practice no real self-enquiry, and am currently without any goal of attaining enlightenment or whatever that means anyway. 

As I said, I'm trying to not go back to what I've heard and forget everything I know about all this, so I'm open to the fact that I know nothing, but perhaps someone could offer a perspective in a non-judgmental way? If it makes sense? Has anyone felt something akin to this and particularly the discomfort and turning away from it when you seen it? 

I don't read these forums too often and have kind of fell off the horse a bit with my personal development, or perhaps I'm just at a stage that isn't focused on spirituality, right now I'm more interested in reprogramming my subconscious, maybe the kind of videos Leo did a few years ago.  It's kind of interesting that I am having these experiences, whatever they are, randomly and without any obvious prompt.

Should I let go if/when it happens again, and why is it so terrifying? What could the consequences be? 

This is what I'm musing on anyway! Any perspectives are welcomed and I appreciate you taking the time to read this.

Happy 2020!

 

 

[Flowerfaeiry]

Hmm maybe dont get too caught up in analyzing the feelings 

[purerogue]

It is nothing unusual and this will come as my opinion as always  

It all depends from state you access, just as everything can feel completely empty, cold, you can enter in state where everything will feel alive and swarming, it is still all in realms of mind, that I am sure of, unfortunately saying more on this matter would be pure speculation from my side , so I will rather keep it at that. 

About consequence part,  it is one of paths on how you can enter non-dual state, if you have not had one, to witch consequences can be serious ego backlash if you are not mentally strong enough, getting to non-dual state from this path is way more difficult for ego to deal with. 

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by purerogue

[WelcometoReality]

7 hours ago, Jackthelad said:

Should I let go if/when it happens again, and why is it so terrifying? What could the consequences be? 

These experiences you've had are glimpses into Truth. Ask yourself if you really want the whole Truth, if you do the portal is through the fear.

[Jackthelad]

8 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

These experiences you've had are glimpses into Truth. Ask yourself if you really want the whole Truth, if you do the portal is through the fear.

Thanks for responding. I guess that's all I wanted to hear. I am actually far more pragmatic and concerned about pursuing this way of life, as I've come to realise it usually causes as much distress and hardship as whatever there is to understand comes with huge and permanent consequences. A recent video of Leo's alerted me to this, and some of Jed McKenna's work as well. Clearly this is not the way for most people. The flip side of this is, of course, my interest in spirituality is alive and kicking again! Like, where the hell did this thing come from... kind of amazing it can hit you seemingly out of nowhere.

Anyway just wanted to share my experiences and hear if it made sense to people. Appreciate the response I guess I don't really know what I am looking for but just wanted to talk to someone about it!

Edited January 2, 2020 by Jackthelad

[Jackthelad]

9 hours ago, purerogue said:

It is nothing unusual and this will come as my opinion as always  

It all depends from state you access, just as everything can feel completely empty, cold, you can enter in state where everything will feel alive and swarming, it is still all in realms of mind, that I am sure of, unfortunately saying more on this matter would be pure speculation from my side , so I will rather keep it at that. 

About consequence part,  it is one of paths on how you can enter non-dual state, if you have not had one, to witch consequences can be serious ego backlash if you are not mentally strong enough, getting to non-dual state from this path is way more difficult for ego to deal with. 

 

Thanks, I don't fully understand everything you mean here but I appreciate the time you took to answer. The idea of ego backlash makes sense.

 

Edit: On a reread I think I get most if not all of what you are saying!

Edited January 2, 2020 by Jackthelad

[Nahm]

@Jackthelad

Do you want to be right and feel bad, or be wrong and feel great?

[Jackthelad]

@Nahm Well living in this world it seems the smart move is to be wrong and feel great, because it's so much easier to function. However, of course I am curious about the truth and would rather not live in bullshit, it seems like a bit of a catch 22. The other concern I have is that I do stand-up comedy and I've always wondered would awakening help or hinder this? My hunch is that stand up is a very egoic-based, with an entirely egoic audience, so not sure how it would work. Although maybe more spiritual comedy might become more normal as more and more people awaken... but I have no idea what that would even look like, Russel Brand is the only one that comes to mind who has had a clear awakening experience.

So...I don't have a genuine answer to your question. As of now I am moving towards staying with what's familiar, although the obviousness of the lie is becoming more apparent.

May I ask, because I'm genuinely curious... have you surrendered and if so, what have the consequences been?

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, Jackthelad said:

the smart move is to be wrong and feel great

Very wise. I’d apply that to the experiences you mentioned when they arise. And I didn’t mean to imply there is a ‘right & wrong’. Careful believing any arising thoughts about that feeling, and differentiate the thoughts about it, from the actual feeling. 

“Before enlightenment, chopping wood & carrying water, after enlightenment, chopping wood & carrying water”. - The Buddha.

For some enlightenment is a very life changing experience, for others it happens in passing, very uneventfully. The depths / degrees of awakening are immeasurable and infinite. “Everything changes & nothing changes” is hard to explain. I think you’re comedy would be just fine, though you might have a couple months of readjusting. I for one, would love a nondual / duality based comic. 

4 hours ago, Jackthelad said:

May I ask, because I'm genuinely curious... have you surrendered and if so, what have the consequences been?

It’s always safe to surrender, there’s no consequences. 
If you mean what are the consequences of awakening sufficiently, I would say Love & Truth. It’s smart to create a life worth awakening to first...and it’s always a good day to awaken. 

[WelcometoReality]

18 hours ago, Jackthelad said:

I've come to realise it usually causes as much distress and hardship as whatever there is to understand comes with huge and permanent consequences.

The mind will create consquenses and hardship or it won't and it'll be as easy as slipping on a banana peel.

The bottom line is you don't know what it will be like so why make any assumptions about ut.

Edited January 3, 2020 by WelcometoReality

[Jackthelad]

20 hours ago, Nahm said:

Very wise. I’d apply that to the experiences you mentioned when they arise. And I didn’t mean to imply there is a ‘right & wrong’. Careful believing any arising thoughts about that feeling, and differentiate the thoughts about it, from the actual feeling. 

“Before enlightenment, chopping wood & carrying water, after enlightenment, chopping wood & carrying water”. - The Buddha.

For some enlightenment is a very life changing experience, for others it happens in passing, very uneventfully. The depths / degrees of awakening are immeasurable and infinite. “Everything changes & nothing changes” is hard to explain. I think you’re comedy would be just fine, though you might have a couple months of readjusting. I for one, would love a nondual / duality based comic. 

It’s always safe to surrender, there’s no consequences. 
If you mean what are the consequences of awakening sufficiently, I would say Love & Truth. It’s smart to create a life worth awakening to first...and it’s always a good day to awaken. 

@NahmThanks for taking the time to read and reply. You know I have had some luck with not trying to achieve anything in terms of spirituality, I may just try to continue to put my focus focus on Being and just let whatever happens unfold. Or not. I'm getting into concentration practice and just being still more, so let's see what doing that brings without putting any expectation on it. I would be surprised if I don't continue to have these experiences, and perhaps the next time I won't resist anything. I guess it felt like I was going "into" something else, even though the something was nothing... ah it's not easy or even necessary to explain. You know yourself!

My ego is still running the show, but perhaps the cracks are beginning to show. It is not going to give up without a fight, it seems! 

Your last point is most interesting to me, creating a life worth awakening to... I'll be pondering this for a long time... it really resonated with me. Thanks for that!

I have found that not seeking seems to be a good way for me to go, so I won't stress about any of this - I feel I may awaken in time. Pursuing stillness of quiet within seems a natural and non-attached way to go. I'm enjoying the journey even if it's slower or less focused than other's.

 

 

[Jackthelad]

8 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

The mind will create consquenses and hardship or it won't and it'll be as easy as slipping on a banana peel.

The bottom line is you don't know what it will be like so why make any assumptions about ut.

I suppose I've watched Leo go from championing enlightenment, to more recently saying almost noone should want it, as it doesn't serve them in the lives they are living. I have no idea where I lay on this spectrum, or if it's true - let's be honest we all need to figure it out for ourselves - but from what I've read and understood spirituality and awakening can be a big issue for people who are not ready for it, and not something to be taken lightly.

Still, you are right about not making assumptions, I can't know and there's no point in overthinking it.

Thanks for the answers. I'm glad to have had the experience as it has woken me up again (non-literally; reminded me) about what is true and what is delusion. 

I still can't understand how there is something, but actually nothing! And in those moments it's not even a question, you just understand... 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Jackthelad

[Nahm]

@Jackthelad ???

[purerogue]

Practice you are doing is great if you are really serious about wanting to dive deeper,won't be easy though, but it is proper way if you want to see huge results. 

But stay away from it if you want to take it slow, from all things I have done it is probably most powerful one and can get you further then you can handle very fast.

There are to many people who do not understand what they are  getting them self into, they say they want, but when they starting to get it they break and ask for way out. 

I can't stress enough how much people underestimate what they are getting them self into. 

 

[WelcometoReality]

17 hours ago, Jackthelad said:

I still can't understand how there is something, but actually nothing! And in those moments it's not even a question, you just understand... 

?

[Jackthelad]

12 hours ago, purerogue said:

Practice you are doing is great if you are really serious about wanting to dive deeper,won't be easy though, but it is proper way if you want to see huge results. 

But stay away from it if you want to take it slow, from all things I have done it is probably most powerful one and can get you further then you can handle very fast.

There are to many people who do not understand what they are  getting them self into, they say they want, but when they starting to get it they break and ask for way out. 

I can't stress enough how much people underestimate what they are getting them self into. 

 

I'm not really doing any practice to speak of, unsure what you mean here.

You sound like you are speaking from experience, what has your experience been?

[purerogue]

On 1/4/2020 at 6:41 PM, Jackthelad said:

I'm not really doing any practice to speak of, unsure what you mean here.

You sound like you are speaking from experience, what has your experience been?

I misunderstood you.

I have had many experiences, has been fun!