Was Plotinus ( Roman Philosopher ) Enlightened ?

[charles1]

I've been reading recently about Plotinus, and there seems to be so much of Non-Duality in his old teachings that I wondered if anybody could help me better understand this strange philosopher, that uses Platon's work but add some mysticism to it.  What did he really brought to the table ? 

For example, he talked at length about a  "superior principle" that fill all the things with its light, but not in a Christian perspective. 

But, he creates a hierarchy of "hypostasis"  within what Leo may simply call God by different names ( The First/The One  ;  Being/ Essence ;  Intelligence/ Unique Spirit  and finally, the forth hypostasis : Matter )  Why ? What does it mean ?  ( I have translated those terms from french, they may not be accurate in a Latin to English translation ) Is it of of any usefulness ? 

According to Porphyry, a student of his, Plotinus has said that he reached "complete unification" 4 times, and that it was an extremely difficult and rare state to provoque. It is a pretty good description of an awakening and the first one I encounter within ancient philosopher. 

Is his teaching an accurate form of non-duality ?  

Do you know any enlightened philosopher ? ( considered as a philosopher today  ) 

 

[Apparition of Jack]

Leo has spoken about Plotinus before, and has described him as a "Western Zen master." As much as it's accurate to say that someone can be "enlightened," I would 100% say that Plotinus was enlightened. What's even cooler is that his teachings have pervaded Western thought for the last 1800 years, we've just collectively forgotten how to recognise it. Figures like Meister Eckhart, John Scotus Eriugena and Georg W. Hegel were all influenced by him. Non-Duality is a deeply Western teaching, if you know how to spot it.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Apparition of Jack

[Leo Gura]

Of course

[ActualizedDavid]

This guy is iluminated too

[V-8]

6 hours ago, charles1 said:

I've been reading recently about Plotinus, and there seems to be so much of Non-Duality in his old teachings....

 

 

The crux is,...non-duality is NOT enlightenment.   Yes,...Turquoise and Coral has much similarity with neo-advaita, but it is way beyond that paradigm.   Turquoise and Coral not only have recognized non-duality, but also non-One,...whereas neo-advaitists are fixated on Oneness and BrahmaLand constructs.

“He who thinks of mind in terms of One or Many casts away the light and enters delusion” - Saraha

 

Plotinus was from an Age where Thymos was superior to Psyche,...where Socrates correctly stated,  "The senses do not grasp reality in any way"

 

Ne0-Advaitists are Sentient Beings,...and can only evolve to Spiritual Beings by Letting Go of their non-dual beliefs which for them is as an opiate that brings a feeling of complete unity in separation.   99.9% of feelings are in the head, the psyche, not the thymos.

"The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...."  Jigme Lingpa

 

[LfcCharlie4]

@Nahm @Leo Gura @VeganAwake @Jkhv1 @Haumea2018 I’m interested to hear your guys thoughts on the statement “Non-Duality isn’t enlightenment” 

as well as the many many other quotes this guy has said, I genuinely am intrigued to hear others opinions, as I might be being biased  

(And anyone else, I genuinely can’t remember many usernames to tag, preferably those with awakening experiences/ awakenings) 

Edited December 29, 2019 by LfcCharlie4

[Nahm]

8 hours ago, charles1 said:

The First/The One  ;  Being/ Essence ;  Intelligence/ Unique Spirit  and finally, the forth hypostasis : Matter

Sounds like the more typical progression of realizing who one really is, the truest nature of Self, that ‘self’ is actually Self, and that all matter is too. 

@LfcCharlie4 Explanations are relative. Fun though. Those two words are synonymous, or not. The only contingency, difference, or distinction ultimately, is that there isn’t any. Neither are “it”. Linguistically speaking, if nonduality means “not two”...then you could put any word you want after it, and it is “not that”.

[Inliytened1]

32 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@Nahm @Leo Gura @VeganAwake @Jkhv1 @Haumea2018 I’m interested to hear your guys thoughts on the statement “Non-Duality isn’t enlightenment” 

as well as the many many other quotes this guy has said, I genuinely am intrigued to hear others opinions, as I might be being biased  

(And anyone else, I genuinely can’t remember many usernames to tag, preferably those with awakening experiences/ awakenings) 

He's just parroting others.  But basically to me it means that an understanding of non-duality is still concept, not actuality.  And actuality / Being is the Absolute.  

[LfcCharlie4]

@Inliytened1 @Inliytened1 Yeah all beliefs and concepts need to be dropped I 100% agree. 

However, he feels everyone is a Neo-Advaitan ?

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

I’m interested to hear your guys thoughts on the statement “Non-Duality isn’t enlightenment” 

It's silly hairsplitting.

Enlightenment is oneness. Nonduality is oneness.

Oneness is an absolute which includes manyness within it. True Oneness does not create a division between oneness and manyness, nor does it preclude such a division from being made by those minds who wish to make it. In other words, relativity. If you look at the world looking for oneness, you will see it. If you look at the world looking for manyness, you will see it. Because your mind creates the world you see.

[LfcCharlie4]

@Leo Gura

Leo coming in clutchhhhhhh,

 this guy has also told me the Absolute DOESNT include anything relative at all, when in fact “duality” is merely an expression of The Self, and EVERYTHING is the absolute. 
 

 

[Bill W]

@LfcCharlie4 Charlie you been really helpful for me but speaking from an observer it doesn't flatter you that you are going after this guy so much. The V8 dude. You even trying to get others into threads to get involved in your corner. I don't see him doing that. I'm just saying that it reads a bit obsessive from an outsider looking in that you are so zoned in on him. I know there are things he says you find baffling but so what? Live and let live man. If he's being out of order the mods will sort it mate. I'm just giving feedback how it looks. I've noticed so others might have as well mate.

[LfcCharlie4]

@Bill W yeah I get how it looks.

it wasn’t to “gang up” as such, more to see if I was missing something/ being blind as he’s made some bold claims towards me, and I’m of course biased to my teachers and awakenings, as well as my own direct experience, I’ve gone about it wrong but I was more asking whether I am completely wrong and missing something. 
 

im sorry if it came across that way and that is far from my intention at all. 

just being told your awakening experiences are complete BS, you’re at stage blue and that your teachers are complete shit doesn’t always sit too well with me, also being told if I eventually become a teacher using what worked for me I will get bad karma didn’t sit well with me either, also using Jed McKenna to disprove masters like Ramana didn’t make sense. 
 

also, being told I’m being mind fucked and the happiness and peace That is now stablaized, is only temporary and illusory and that it is all neo-Advaita dogma, similar to traditional religion, these are not small claims, therefore, of course I’m going to investigate whether I am genuinely missing something here, see where I’m coming from more so? 
 

I am genuinely intrigued to see if I’m missing something or being too harsh, but from the 5+ people I’ve contacted regarding it it seems like I wasn’t.

sorry again if it seems like that, at the end of the day he’s questioning the whole foundation of this forum regarding non-duality and modern teachers (including Leo) therefore I wanted to be thorough in my discussions, maybe I’ve come across too strong who knows. 
 

it was not to do with corners but to genuinely ask perspective from a range of people on here, as my perspective is 1 perspective, and as I said will of course have forms of self bias, Leo, Nahm etc have had different paths to awakening hence me asking them to see if I am genuinely wrong. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by LfcCharlie4

[Bill W]

@LfcCharlie4 I was half cringing when I typed that to you Charlie as it felt like "friendly fire" Lol. Yeh, I know you come from a good place with your content on here. I just saw a little bit of "recruiting" activity in your content with getting others involved, but like you said, you wanted a second opinion. I'm sure V8 is big enough and ugly enough to handle himself and I've never interacted with him, but if he was a vulnerable person he might have felt victimised, but he never asked me to be his guardian angel anyway lol.  I'm trying not to get involved in anything on here that doesn't concern me, as it's a distraction, but as you know, old habits can die hard! Anyway, carry on, nothing to see here 

[LfcCharlie4]

@Bill W  LOL, don't worry mate, I'm only responding as I've been discussing privately with him recently and to be honest, I've had some chats with a few people about it and he comes across very strange, let's put it like that. Certain things he said didn't sit well with me, but I didn't know if that was because I was being naive or if he was using his knowledge and age to act superior, to be honest I still don't know and am not really bothered. 

What I do know, is this year has been incredibly transformations in terms of my direct experience of reality and level of awareness so to speak (language always fails here), so to have my direct experience be called a mindfuck and 'Neo-Advaita Dogma' didn't sit well with me, hence asking 'other awakened beings' as I know their paths are VERY different from mine  

It is likely due to the limitations of language but I just didn't believe certain things said were true such as the first 6 SD stages are all pointless and bullshit, the absolute doesn't include anything relative (lol), meditation is completely pointless, Transmissions are BS, basically any relative activity except this work is childs play, My direct experiences aren't that. 

Obviously these are huge claims to make to someone, so I wondered if I was being unfair that's all  

I just remember being a seeker and if I would've read stuff like that a year ago it would've played on my mind and made me spiral into non stop overthinking, so certain info can be very dangerous when certain people read it, I'm lucky now I have the ability to actually think for myself, and use my own experience as my vantage point, instead of mere concepts and books etc, but not everyone can yet, as I couldn't just 9 months ago. 

[Inliytened1]

3 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

 

 this guy has also told me the Absolute DOESNT include anything relative at all, 
 

 

Yes non-duality contains duality within it.  Duality and non-duality is itself a duality that must collapse.  So if he stated that, it is inaccurate.   Just like what he said about meditation.  You are right in being wary of someone who had admitted he is not awake regurgitating quotes of others.  Inaccuracies , even with the best of intentions, do need to be pointed out when spotted, for the benefit of all. 

It seemed to me his quote non-duality is not enlightenment (i don't remember if it was a direct quote from someone) was talking with abstract wording of the relative vs the Absolute but who knows.  Ultimately they are one though.  

  

 

[charles1]

18 hours ago, Apparition of Jack said:

 Figures like Meister Eckhart, John Scotus Eriugena and Georg W. Hegel were all influenced by him. Non-Duality is a deeply Western teaching, if you know how to spot it.

Yep, Meister Eckhart is pretty amazing too. 

I didn't noticed it in Hegel however, but I admit I haven't read him a lot ( it's hard ! ) .  When you know the fame and the inheritance of Hegel, I ask how is it possible we talk so little about mysticism in modern culture ?  Why his successors didn't work as much in ontology as he did ?  In other words, why is modern philosophy, general public teachings of philosophy exempted of mysticism ? 

Edited December 30, 2019 by charles1

[Leo Gura]

51 minutes ago, charles1 said:

In other word, why is modern philosophy, general public teachings of philosophy exempted of mysticism ?

Because the religion of science has take over the entire domain of truth-seeking and defined itself as anti-mystical.

You can't teach someone what reality is when he insists that reality is material.

Science has sold its soul to the devil of pragmatism.

[VeganAwake]

This guy is much more awake than bologna octopus

 

[Haumea2018]

Full enlightenment is a paradoxical state, so of course one label doesn't do it justice, but the point is not to have an accurate map but to embody the state.

You can have a "more" accurate label of "nonduality with duality" or as Ramaji says "transcendental duality" (i.e. attempting to capture the paradox) but it's still just a label, a map.

Until you experience the state, it means little.

So of course, non-duality is a relative label, i.e. compared to the empirical ego, "body-bounded-me vs. the rest of creation" mundane duality, it is an experience of non-duality.  All labels are dualistic by nature, since you can append a minus/not symbol to any label.

So you can put a "not" in front of whatever map tries to capture the paradox.

You know you've arrived at full enlightenment when you begin to experience what can best be described as a "paradoxical, total-let-go state."

So, take labels for what they are: they are not transcendental and universal absolutes, but rather useful tools for certain contexts.

Yes - ALL labels, including critiques of labels with attempts at "better" labels.

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Haumea2018