Everyone Is Selfish.

[Orange]

On 08/02/2016 at 1:08 PM, sergeyrar said:

Sure they want !!!!!

They want everyone to be like them!

They want all people to be influenced by their believes.

Imagine how powerful would they  feel, if all people on the planet would be transformed thanks to them.

I don't think it has anything to do with power...because power is an ego thing, and they seem to have very little of it, if at all. I was going to say maybe they want everyone to be influenced because it would make a more peaceful planet but that is also ego perhaps..

 

So maybe it just comes down to what Leo said above: love..?

Edited October 3, 2016 by Orange

[ajasatya]

one can only talk about his own direct experience. quit thinking that you're talking about "others". you talk about your own selfishness.

i had a huge ego and it made me suffer.

now i practice zen and teach the dhamma as a zen teacher for free (the job i get money from is in the university). "coincidentally", everyone that's coming into my personal life is genuinely selfless, including my girlfriend, who is a sincere seeker too.

why did i quote "coincidentally"? these things you will understand later on by yourself. for now you just need to practice humility, that's all.

[Key Elements]

Interesting topic...I don't see survival as being selfish. It's just something automatic. Like, "Oh no, what do I do to get my next meal?" All living beings do that, even without a second thought. Is a bird really being selfish? What about ants? No, it's just nature. We humans are too.

Then, if you manage to get some surplus in lifestyle, like supporting your family, you could donate clothes or money or whatever, and even volunteer. Why is that labelled "selfish"? Most ppl don't want to see homelessness and wonder why there are the homeless. I think working hard is not selfish cause you won't be a burden on society.

Then, if you decide to become an entrepreneur, you get a different type of income called passive income, not earned income, like in a job. This could make you "rich." Bill Gates started an Aids Foundation. Again, why should that be labelled "selfish?" Once upon a time, society didn't have such opportunities like becoming entrepreneurs and starting organizations.

Then, it goes beyond that. Look at the Nobel Peace Prize winners. Some of them just give all the money away to charity after winning this prize. Some of them gave up their lives (they got shot and killed for doing good) and then had this recognition. Some people deserve this recognition but instead got killed for doing good and never got it. You get the point.

That's why I'm not sure if "selfish" is the best word for everyone. 

[kurt]

Nobody is selfless, there are only different degrees of selfishness.  If were performing selfless acts to reduce suffering then were still doing it for ourselves.  That's the difference between dharma and adharma, dharma is just action for the benefit of the total, this includes ones self.

[ajasatya]

@kurt saturday, after a long zazenkai, i had one of the deepest insights i've ever had.

i was asking myself "i've seen the emptiness in myself, but who suffers the consequences of karma?"

then i realized the emptiness in every being. not just those who live right now but also those who are gone and of course those who will still come.

so the words pounded my mind like a flash "no one suffers the consequences of karma!". so suffering is felt by the Universe. the same is with happiness and all other emotions.

helping people being conscious of that gives me infinite joy and gratitude. i help being conscious of the fact that happiness has simply been felt (by nobody, this is the beautiful part). so it doesn't become a matter of selfishness/selflessness. thats why i call it pure selflessness.

[ajasatya]

3 minutes ago, iago iriarte arhatha said:

@kurt saturday, after a long zazenkai, i had one of the deepest insights i've ever had.

i was asking myself "i've seen the emptiness in myself, but who suffers the consequences of karma?"

then i realized the emptiness in every being. not just those who live right now but also those who are gone and of course those who will still come.

so the words pounded my mind like a flash "no one suffers the consequences of karma!". so suffering is felt by the Universe. the same is with happiness and all other emotions.

helping people being conscious of that gives me infinite joy and gratitude. i help being conscious of the fact that happiness has simply been felt (by nobody, this is the beautiful part). so it doesn't become a matter of selfishness/selflessness. thats why i call it pure selflessness.

lol i just noticed how these words sounded like the diamond sutra (http://zen-ua.org/wp-content/uploads/the_diamond_sutra_english.pdf)

[dachickenMind]

Selfish is our nature. It is our low level needs. We can not ignore it when we pursue our happiness. We may hurt each other when we are selfishly trying to achieve our goal. On the high level of our consciousness, we realize we need to find a better way to achieve our success through helping each other . only then, we move the human race forward.

 

[Key Elements]

It's a matter of seeing the cup as half empty or half full. I rather see it as half full taking the other side into consideration. 

[FindingPeace]

Ultimately every motivation we have in life leads to some sort of personal gain. Otherwise we wouldn't take the action. It may be a very subtle gain, but nonetheless there are few, if any, actions that are motivated by a try sense of selflessness. It could be something as simple as getting validation in return (even self-validation) but it's ultimately a 'transaction' of sorts.

This isn't to say that every acts without consideration for others. The term 'selfish' is a sticky one. To me it represents the mere act of 'doing someone for one's own benefit'. But this can be done without any effect on others, or at the expense of others, or at the benefit of others aswel. So there are several ways of being 'selfish', but they aren't all 'bad'. In the end, all of our actions fall in to one of those categories.

14 hours ago, Key Elements said:

.I don't see survival as being selfish.

It isn't when that survival comes at no cost to others but consider when there is a food shortage or a threatening danger. Then survival becomes 'who can get the food first?' or 'who can kill the other?'. Just watch animals of different species in Africa fighting over a single carcase.

[Key Elements]

@FindingPeace

Hmm...that's an interesting way of looking at it. I've never put a label on our automatic system of survival as being "selfish." I'm thinking we can't really help it cause that's the way it is. It's a given, unfortunately. I've always tried to come out of it (like become vegetarian, for example). I just simply see that as suffering and try to head toward peace (if I can). You know, try to head toward a more peaceful lifestyle taking into consideration of others. However, no one does this perfectly. 

[FindingPeace]

25 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

I'm thinking we can't really help it cause that's the way it is. It's a given, unfortunately.

Indeed. And to accept this makes a huge difference to how we perceive ourselves and others. Suddenly I find I cannot ever judge or criticise another person or being ever again. I don't judge this whole selfish/selfless concept. It's a tricky subject and the more you try to look in to it the more you find a tangled web of contradictions and paradoxes. Example being: would the receiver or a selfless act be a selfish person? After all, they are benefiting from someone elses actions. The whole concept of 'selfish' I think is a classic manifestaion of the ego. It's a concept that has a convenient benefit to the ego.

It doesn't trouble me when I consider that (perhaps) every action is self-serving in some way. It's only the way we have been conditioned by society and the way our egos become offended by it that makes the whole thing a 'moral' issue. It isn't. It's life and it's reality. And there's a certain liberation that ensues when we come to accept it.

 

[Lawrence]

On 2/7/2016 at 7:22 PM, Kelly C said:

I find it difficult to accept that we are naturally selfish because it has negative implications, but I think it is also necessary. How can we help the world if we can't help ourselves? !

I think this is true =)

I know from my own experience that I cannot help the world without helping myself first.

Why would I want to help the world if I couldn't help myself?

I would just be contaminating other peoples energy fields if I was "trying" to help them from a place of self inflicted suffering.

I honestly think that are bodies are just vehicles for the universe to experience/express "itself" and we only can control our own experience and no one else's, so it wouldn't be right to call it selfish as we've been created this way.

I think in my opinion, the best way is this...

Help yourself first and then go out of your way to help others because helping others in the world can intensify our happiness and we will also make a major difference to their lives = Win - Win.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Lawrence

[Xpansion]

At the root of human suffering are 3 destructive impulses known In Buddhism as the 3 poisons - greed, hatred and ignorance.  Lobha, dvesha and moha.  Selfishness falls under greed. However it is possible to purify oneself of these poisons and cultivate true  kindness and compassion instead. It takes awareness and lots of practice.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Xpansion

[David1]

@FindingPeace What about a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies? İsn't that a selfless act?

[FindingPeace]

14 hours ago, David1 said:

@FindingPeace What about a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies? İsn't that a selfless act?

That would depend on his motives and whether they are self-serving in some way.

18 hours ago, Xpansion said:

Selfishness falls under greed.

I think there is a huge misunderstanding about what 'selfishness' is.

It is defined as 'lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.'

The problem is that we tend to call any self-serving or self-interested action a 'selfish' action. An action that serves the 'self'.

But not all selfish actions are inherently 'bad' or lacking in consideration for others. If I go and make myself a drink but not offer anyone else one, then I would be called 'selfish'. Yet, I have in no way hurt or taken away anything from another person. Just served my own self-interest. But not at the expense of another. The problem is that we class all self-serving actions as selfish and this creates all sorts of moral problem for people.

Selfishness is not inherently 'greedy'. Nor is it inherently detrimental to others. It depends on the specific action, the motive that led to it and the effect it has on others.

[Bob84]

If helping others would hurt, noone would do it.

Additionaly theres: validation and recognition which could also apply to the above and this msg.

[Guest SC GM]

The more your consciousness rises, the more you will see the selfish acts. It feels like your blinds are coming off and you can detect people's motivations so easily. At the same time, I observe my own ego as well. It's bitter. But I get a bit of relief from this waste land when I surround myself with people who do want to do good i.e. volunteering. However even then, people's motivations are egoistic, giving in order to get back. 

[David1]

6 hours ago, nemonissa said:

The more your consciousness rises, the more you will see the selfish acts. It feels like your blinds are coming off and you can detect people's motivations so easily. At the same time, I observe my own ego as well. It's bitter. But I get a bit of relief from this waste land when I surround myself with people who do want to do good i.e. volunteering. However even then, people's motivations are egoistic, giving in order to get back. 

It's all very tricky. In principle, helping others equals helping yourself. And the other way around too. For example, by helping himself, Bill Gates is able to do so much more for others. What seemed a selfish act at start, can turn to become a real life saver for others down the road. And then there is this...who are you hurting because you help yourself or others? For example, if you buy a homeless guy a pair of shoes, you may be helping him. But are you helping the kid in Bangladesh that manufactured the shoes? Or...the homelsess guy may trade in the shoes for a knife, wich he uses to murder someone. You can never know what chain of events you unleash. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. It basically boils down to Leo's "Rant against morality" video. "Selfishness is bad", thats moralization, judgement. Who knows...it can be bad or good, or better, there is no good or bad. Maybe, instead of creating a 'good life', beauty is a better guide to live your life by.

 

Edited November 3, 2016 by David1