The Power of Traditional Psychotherapy (and Psychiatry)

[SunnyNewDay]

22 hours ago, Commodent said:

It honestly feels too risky advicing someone to get therapy. The psychiatric profession tends to attract really many unhealthy people, moreso than other professions. And if you end up with a bad one, which you probably will, it's very likely to just make things worse. I will rather just recommend the resources above, which I know are good.

What are you basing this assumption on? I disagree. Don't know how you could possibly know whether that is true or not. If anything I've seen a lot of spiritual spheres attracting unwell people (including myself) which has just ended up in spiritual bypassing and mental/emotional problems being passed off as "the dark night." Also lots of unqualified and unethical people giving advice they are not qualified or experienced enough to be giving due to their approach and lack of ethical structure and safety systems around it. At least with therapy there is more of a safety net and it's empirically been seen to improve people to a point. The goal isn't to solve everything in therapy and I think it's good to be doing stuff outside it as well but it is a way that gets people stronger, unstuck and reclaiming some of their power to do more of the healing on their own. It serves a purpose of feeling acknowledged and having someone give a second set of eyes on your art usually leads to much deeper and inspiring creation. 

[SunnyNewDay]

38 minutes ago, Commodent said:

Edit: And also, by taking medication you are just sweeping the problem under your rug. I hope your therapist has made you aware of that.

That's not true at all, the part about working through your trauma while on mood medications, essentially what you're saying. You're just repeating jargon and dogma from psychedelic/spiritual communities. Healing is different for everyone and medications are very helpful for many while facing and going through them.

[SunnyNewDay]

56 minutes ago, Commodent said:

@kag101 @kag101(Pardon the double quote. For some reason I can't remove it on phone)

Again, none of the things you mention are things you can't cultivate within yourself. I know that because I've done so, and I know it has worked the same way for many others. Look up Daniel Mackler on YouTube. He's a former therapist who speaks very favourly of self-therapy.

Remember, a therapist can only really take you up to the point to where they're at. And from that point on, you're on your own. If you don't have the skill to heal yourself, you will only be able to heal as long as there are someone more healed than you. This is a major problem.

Obviously not. I'm saying you shouldn't pick one alternative that is likely to be destructive when there is another one which is almost guaranteed to bring good results and also much more rewarding in the long run.

A psychiatrist can be nice if you find a good one, but it is by no means necessary to heal, like you make it out to be. 

I'd advice you to look up Internal Family Systems. It's a quite efficient approach to self-therapy, I actually read about it first in a trauma recovery book packed with cutting-edge research, "Healing the fragmented selves of trauma survivors" by Janina Fisher.

And yes, my therapist was very good. She did all the things you speak of so fondly, amongst other things.

Edit: And also, by taking medication you are just sweeping the problem under your rug. I hope your therapist has made you aware of that.

I had the same viewpoint at a point in time after having been through therapy several years ago and building up my confidence and doing a lot of self work and spiritual work... then came the explosion of repression from my blind spot with psychedelics and the eventual integration that therapy has basically been a godsend in healing from. be careful swearing off therapy and underplaying the vital role it plays in this work for tackling emotional issues. 

[Commodent]

10 minutes ago, SunnyNewDay said:

What are you basing this assumption on? I disagree. Don't know how you could possibly know whether that is true or not.

@kag101(Sorry, I do not intend to quote you kag, but my phone won't let me remove it.)

Other people familiar with the field, both people I know studying psychology and people in the profession. LOTS of weird people apparently. It makes sense really. People who grew up in a dysfunctional family dynamic where they were their caregivers therapist (which is quite common), as well as people who just want to fix their own problems. Both of them applied to me, and I was tempted to do the same.

20 minutes ago, SunnyNewDay said:

Healing is different for everyone and medications are very helpful for many while facing and going through them.

You're still shoving it under the rug, if only temporarily. That's why I said I hoped she had made him aware of it, so that he doesn't falsely believe it is a permanent solution.

15 minutes ago, SunnyNewDay said:

a coach doesn't win the olympic gold for an athlete yet they play an integral role in helping them realize their greatness.

That's why I recommend resources which I KNOW are good. By recommending people a therapist I am much more likely to set them up for failure.

Dismiss it as self work jargon as much as you like. But for the sake of accuracy I can say that this is not something I have learned from neither Facebook groups nor spiritual communities. Ultimately I don't really care whether someone goes to therapy or not. I just felt like offering some perspective to OPs post, which I thought seemed very one-sided and itself dogmatic. The general attitude in society is that if you struggle mentally you SHOULD get a therapist, but I'm just here saying there is definitely no should. It's a very disempowering thing to believe you need a therapist to heal. And as already mentioned I see a therapist myself sometimes and I have accredited it some value, so I'm really not coming from a place of dogma here. If you have never gone to a therapist then by all means try it and see how it makes you feel.

[SunnyNewDay]

1 hour ago, Commodent said:

Other people familiar with the field, both people I know studying psychology and people in the profession. LOTS of weird people apparently. It makes sense really. People who grew up in a dysfunctional family dynamic where they were their caregivers therapist (which is quite common), as well as people who just want to fix their own problems. Both of them applied to me, and I was tempted to do the same.

doesn't mean people's past un wellness and trauma carries over into their practice. everyone has their own issues. I don't see how you think any one field of study is immune to this or more concentrated in this one. if anything people's breadth of experience in healing themselves aids them in helping others. I have never heard anyone make this claim before that this field attracts unwell people and insinuating that because of this much therapy being given is flawed or not helpful. if anything I've heard people complain about their therapists not having any sort of real life experiences or problems/obstacles they have overcome and coming off naive. 

1 hour ago, Commodent said:

You're still shoving it under the rug, if only temporarily. That's why I said I hoped she had made him aware of it, so that he doesn't falsely believe it is a permanent solution.

This is untrue. You're not shoving anything under the rug by taking medication. It's how you're holistically integrating the medication into your healing process. It isn't about the medicines themselves but how they are used. Stuff comes up while one is seeing a therapist and pharmaceuticals can help allow for this to occur without the person become re traumatized or having their nervous system in a constant state of fear among other things. Just popping a pill and ignoring your problems is a way many shove their problems under a rug and it occurs because the mental health systems just aren't as developed as they could be with an abundance of therapy out there for helping people figure out what they're carrying around.  Some of it also comes down to personal responsibility. It takes courage to look under the rug and that is what therapy addresses. How many people have shoved their issues under the rug and tried to transcend them by taking up a spiritual/meditative/yoga practice or doing a bunch of psychedelics? Seen this apply proportionately in this domain as well. it comes down to how each individual uses the resources they been given, not the resources themselves. 

 

[LoveandPurpose]

4 hours ago, kag101 said:

Thanks! Do you like your therapist?

Keep in mind that It's important to be patient. 

It's not necessarily a fast process. In fact, one of the traps is to try and rush results.

Yes I like my therapist! And thanks for the advice. How do you cultivate patience though?

[Gladius]

From my experience of CPTSD survivor, I'd recommend to look up a good therapist you have chemistry with. I'm in my mid-thirties now and wished I had therapy way before. Earlier in life I tried a couple psychologist and it didn't work. They both looked shocked and confused when they heared my story, and had no idea how to treat it.

This year I gave it one last shot and luckily found someone way more aware. She gave me the right diagnosis within 10 minutes of talking. At the end of the day, the healing came from establishing, for the first time in my life, a healthy honest bond with someone I can be 100% authentic. It's expensive but it's the best investment I've ever made.

Of course you also need to work on your own, though. Good luck.

[Commodent]

7 hours ago, SunnyNewDay said:

if anything people's breadth of experience in healing themselves aids them in helping others.

@SunnyNewDay That's the problem. Very many therapists don't really have experience healing themselves, which makes them incapable of healing others. And if they come across as naive they OBVIOUSLY haven't healed their own issues, as it demonstrates a severe lack of empathy. Believing you are fully healed is also the biggest, and most common, form of denial.

The large presence of unhealthy people in the psychiatric profession is a well-known phenomena. Long quote ahead. 

“It is often said that psychotherapists suffer from an emotional disturbance. My purpose so far has been to clarify the extent to which this assertion can be shown to have a basis in experience. The therapist’s sensibility, empathy, responsiveness, and powerful “antennae” indicate that as a child he probably used to fulfill other people’s needs and to repress his own. Of course, there is the theoretical possibility that a sensitive child could have had parents who did not need to misuse him—parents who saw him as he really was, understood him, and tolerated and respected his feelings. Although such a child would develop a healthy sense of security, one could hardly expect that he would later take up the profession of psychotherapy; that he would cultivate and develop his sensitivity to others to the same extent as those whose parents used them to gratify their own needs; and that he would ever be able to understand sufficiently—without the basis of experience—what it means to “have killed” one’s self. I think that our childhood fate can indeed enable us to practice psychotherapy, but only if we have been given the chance, through our own therapy, to live with the reality of our past and to give up the most flagrant of our illusions. This means tolerating the knowledge that, to avoid losing the “love” of our parents, we were compelled to gratify their unconscious needs at the cost of our own emotional development. It also means being able to experience the resentment and mourning aroused by our parents’ failure to fulfill our primary needs. If we have never consciously lived through this despair and the resulting rage, and have therefore never been able to work through it, we will be in danger of transferring this situation, which then would remain unconscious, onto our patients. It would not be surprising if our unconscious need should find no better way than to make use of a weaker person. Most readily available for exploitation are one’s own children or one’s patients, who at times are as obedient and as dependent on their therapists as children are on their parents. A patient with “antennae” for his therapist’s unconscious will react promptly. If he senses that it is important to his therapist to have patients who soon become autonomous and behave with self-confidence, he will quickly feel himself autonomous and react accordingly. He can do that; he can do anything that is expected of him. But because this autonomy is not genuine, it soon ends in depression. True autonomy is preceded by the experience of being dependent. True liberation can be found only beyond the deep ambivalence of infantile dependence. When he presents material that fits the therapist’s knowledge, concepts, and skills—and therefore also his expectations—the patient satisfies his therapists wish for approval, echo, understanding, and for being taken seriously. In this way the therapist exercises the same sort of unconscious manipulation as that to which he was exposed as a child. A child can never see through unconscious manipulation. It is like the air he breathes; he knows no other, and it appears to him to be the only breathable air. What happens if we don’t recognize the harmful quality of this air, even in adulthood? We will pass this harm on to others, while pretending that we are acting only for their own good. The more insight I gain into the unconscious manipulation of children by their parents, the more urgent it seems to me that we resolve our repression. Not only as parents but also as therapists, we must be willing to face our history. Only after painfully experiencing and accepting our own truth can we be free from the hope that we might still find an understanding, empathic “parent”—perhaps in a patient—who will be at our disposal. This temptation to seek a parent among our patients should not be underestimated; our own parents seldom or never listened to us with such rapt attention as our patients usually do, and they never revealed their inner world to us as clearly and honestly as do our patients at times. Only the never-ending work of mourning can help us from lapsing into the illusion that we have found the parent we once urgently needed—empathic and open, understanding and understandable, honest and available, helpful and loving, feeling, transparent, clear, without unintelligible contradictions. Such a parent was never ours, for a mother can react empathically only to the extent that she has become free of her own childhood; when she denies the vicissitudes of her early life, she wears invisible chains. Children who are intelligent, alert, attentive, sensitive, and completely attuned to the mothers well-being are entirely at her disposal. Transparent, clear, and reliable, they are easy to manipulate as long as their true self (their emotional world) remains in the cellar of the glass house in which they have to live—sometimes until puberty or until they come to therapy, and very often until they have become parents themselves. Robert, now thirty-one, could never be sad or cry as a child, without being aware that he was making his beloved mother unhappy and very unsure of herself. The extremely sensitive child felt himself warded off by his mother, who had been in a concentration camp as a child but had never spoken about it. Not until her son was grown up and could ask her questions did she tell him that she had been one of eighty children who had had to watch their parents going into the gas chambers and that not one child had cried. Because “cheerfulness” was the trait that had saved her life in childhood, her own children’s tears threatened her equilibrium. Throughout his childhood this son had tried to be cheerful. He could express glimpses of his true self and his feelings only in obsessive perversions, which seemed alien, shameful, and incomprehensible to him until he began to grasp their real meaning. One is totally defenseless against this sort of manipulation in childhood. The tragedy is that the parents too have no defense against it, as long as they refuse to face their own history. If the repression stays unresolved, the parents’ childhood tragedy is unconsciously continued on in their children. Another example may illustrate this more clearly. A father who as a child had often been frightened by the anxiety attacks of his periodically schizophrenic mother and was never given an explanation enjoyed telling his beloved small daughter gruesome stories. He always laughed at her fears and afterward comforted her with the words: “But it is only a made-up story. You don’t need to be scared, you are here with me.” In this way he could manipulate his child’s fear and have the feeling of being strong. His conscious wish was to give the child something valuable of which he himself had been deprived, namely protection, comfort, and explanations. But what he unconsciously handed on was his own childhood fear, the expectation of disaster, and the unanswered question (also from his childhood): Why does this person I love frighten me so much? Probably everybody has a more or less concealed inner chamber that she hides even from herself and in which the props of her childhood drama are to be found. Those who will be most affected by the contents of this hidden chamber are her children. When the mother was a child she hardly had a chance to understand what happened; she could only develop symptoms. As an adult in therapy, however, she can resolve these symptoms if she allows herself to feel what they were able to disguise: feelings of horror, indignation, despair, and helpless rage. Can it be an accident that Heinrich Pestalozzi—who was fatherless from his sixth year onward and emotionally neglected despite the presence of his mother and of a nurse—neglected his only son, although he was capable, on the other hand, of giving orphan children genuine warmth and fatherliness? This son was finally considered to be mentally defective, although he had been an intelligent child.* He died at the age of thirty. Both his life and his death caused Pestalozzi much pain and guilt (Ganz, 1966, Lavater-Sloman, 1977). It was also Pestalozzi who is reputed to have said: “You can drive the devil out of your garden but you will find him again in the garden of your son.”

From "The Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller

8 hours ago, SunnyNewDay said:

How many people have shoved their issues under the rug and tried to transcend them by taking up a spiritual/meditative/yoga practice or doing a bunch of psychedelics?

Most people getting into spirituality I think. If you read my post history you will see that I have warned against spiritual bypassing plentiful of times. But truth be told, you don't need a therapist to avoid this. And I do not generally consider this place a healthy place.

Some people might have use of an artificially induced high, but I'd argue that is rarely the case. And you obviously don't need medications to avoid re traumatization.

Even if someone have decided to go see a therapist I would advice them to read "The Tao of Fully Feeling" first. If not they might not be able to recognize a bad one.

I could be talking about this for hours upon hours, but we are obviously set on our positions so I suggest we end it here.

[kag101]

On 30/12/2019 at 7:11 PM, Commodent said:

Again, none of the things you mention are things you can't cultivate within yourself. I know that because I've done so, and I know it has worked the same way for many others. Look up Daniel Mackler on YouTube. He's a former therapist who speaks very favourly of self-therapy.

I disagree.

I know how powerful and therapeutic self-reflection and meditative practices can be. But in many cases - especially when dealing with mental illnesses - those kinds of practices not only aren't enough, but they can even worsen the person's condition.

Therefore, high-quality professional face-to-face help is crucial for a lot of people.

Here's a great article about this topic: https://psychcentral.com/lib/you-cant-fight-depression-alone/

On 30/12/2019 at 7:11 PM, Commodent said:

I'm saying you shouldn't pick one alternative that is likely to be destructive when there is another one which is almost guaranteed to bring good results and also much more rewarding in the long run.

You're right!

For people who are struggling with mental illness, the combo medication + psychotherapy is indeed "almost guaranteed to bring good results and also much more rewarding in the long run."

And, in this case, alternative self-healing techniques are likely to be destructive.

 

On 30/12/2019 at 7:48 PM, SunnyNewDay said:

What are you basing this assumption on? I disagree. Don't know how you could possibly know whether that is true or not. If anything I've seen a lot of spiritual spheres attracting unwell people (including myself) which has just ended up in spiritual bypassing and mental/emotional problems being passed off as "the dark night." Also lots of unqualified and unethical people giving advice they are not qualified or experienced enough to be giving due to their approach and lack of ethical structure and safety systems around it. At least with therapy there is more of a safety net and it's empirically been seen to improve people to a point. The goal isn't to solve everything in therapy and I think it's good to be doing stuff outside it as well but it is a way that gets people stronger, unstuck and reclaiming some of their power to do more of the healing on their own. It serves a purpose of feeling acknowledged and having someone give a second set of eyes on your art usually leads to much deeper and inspiring creation. 

???

 

On 30/12/2019 at 9:50 PM, SunnyNewDay said:

Just popping a pill and ignoring your problems is a way many shove their problems under a rug

Yes, that can happen with some types of medication, particularly controlled substances (e.g., Xanax, oxycodone, Adderall, etc.)

All of these medications can be life-saver for some people. At the same time, because they are so potent and instaneously effective, many people abuse them.

On the other hand, antidepressants (SSRI, SNRIs, TCAs, etc) work differently.

First, the person doesn't get a high out of them. The effects are not instantaneous. The medication takes about 2-4 weeks to start working. So it's not possible to abuse it.

Second, they only work for people who actually have depression. They are similar to antipyretics. If a person who has no fever takes paracetamol, his/her body temperature will not change.

Similarly, if someone who doesn't have depression take antidepressants, their mood will not be uplifted. So, the medication only works for people who are out of balance.

Third, they are also not addictive. Think about using a glass because of myopia. The person is not "dependent" on the glass; he or she needs it in order to function well.

 

On 30/12/2019 at 9:50 PM, SunnyNewDay said:

How many people have shoved their issues under the rug and tried to transcend them by taking up a spiritual/meditative/yoga practice or doing a bunch of psychedelics?

I have certainly done that lol

 

On 30/12/2019 at 10:13 PM, LoveandPurpose said:

Yes I like my therapist! And thanks for the advice. How do you cultivate patience though?

Well, that's a tricky question.

1) Is your therapist graduated in psychology?

2) Have you ever asked if he/she thinks it's a good idea for you to go to a psychiatrist?

If you are seeing some minor result, that is, if you leave each session with new insights, with a sense of relief and hope; then, I believe you're on the right track. So in this case, you need to be patient without wanting to fix everything in your life too quickly. My therapist said once to me, "Don't try to progress 50 years in 5." That's a Portuguese expression, so I am not sure if it makes sense in English.

Leo has a very good episode on this topic:

 

On 31/12/2019 at 6:39 AM, Gladius said:

From my experience of CPTSD survivor, I'd recommend to look up a good therapist you have chemistry with. I'm in my mid-thirties now and wished I had therapy way before. Earlier in life I tried a couple psychologist and it didn't work. They both looked shocked and confused when they heared my story, and had no idea how to treat it.

This year I gave it one last shot and luckily found someone way more aware. She gave me the right diagnosis within 10 minutes of talking. At the end of the day, the healing came from establishing, for the first time in my life, a healthy honest bond with someone I can be 100% authentic. It's expensive but it's the best investment I've ever made.

Wow, awesome!

I even got goosebumps from reading this!

Edited January 3, 2020 by kag101

[Commodent]

34 minutes ago, kag101 said:

I know how powerful and therapeutic self-reflection and meditative practices can be.

Getting in touch with that healing presence within you extends beyond just self-reflection and meditative practices. It's something you cultivate on a minute-to-minute basis, and it's deeply transformational.

This is really what any good therapists helps you get in touch with. This ability to be there for yourself. You think you know what I'm talking about, but it really doesn't seem like you do. Maybe your resources were bad, I don't know.

Crucial for some people, maybe, if they happen to find a good therapist. Otherwise destructive. Similarly, the resources I mentioned offers a good model for how to relate to yourself and your emotions. Which attains the same thing, really, and is sure to have a healing power.

34 minutes ago, kag101 said:

For people who are struggling with mental illness, the combo medication + psychotherapy is indeed "almost guaranteed to bring good results and also much more rewarding in the long run."

No, traditional psychotherapy got a notoriously bad track record. It entirely depends on the therapist's empathic abilities, which is quite hit and miss.

And no, I'm not disregarding the value of meeting other people. As stated, I'm also seeing a therapist sometimes, and I definitely see value in that. I'm simply promoting the ability to be there for yourself, which is really the most important skill one can have IMO. Because, tell me, what do you do when there currently are no therapists in your presence? (Which, I assume, is most of the time).

Edited January 3, 2020 by Commodent

[Dan502]

I had to reach a point where I really needed it before I seriously considered seeing a therapist but once I did, I actually enjoyed it and carried on long after "needing" to.

Being able to talk "honestly without being judged" was a unique and, I feel, potentially, a useful experience. I saw a psychodynamic therapist.

I see the quality of the dialogue in the sessions as a model for human interaction.

I'd find it hard to pin down the details or benefits with any degree of certainty although I could create a speculative list.

It cost an arm and a leg, so to speak; the UK health service tends to prefer CBT or pills to long-term talk therapy for patients with diagnosed conditions let alone those who feel like continuing the sessions without one.

I attended weekly for two years before reaching a point where I felt like I had run out of things to talk about.

Don't expect your friends and family, or really anyone else for that matter, to be supportive. Even some therapists don't believe long-term talk therapy is beneficial.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Dan502

[Nahm]

On 12/30/2019 at 8:13 PM, LoveandPurpose said:

Yes I like my therapist! And thanks for the advice. How do you cultivate patience though?

A simple practice for this which goes a long way...

Play it out...ALL the way out. Whatever it is which seems to take you out of enjoying this moment now, ‘play it out’. The mind thinks it’s ‘got to get somewhere’, to the ‘next thing’, to a ‘future me’...to feel happiness. If what you’re currently doing, we’ll call it “this”...if this seems to be uninteresting, a waste of your time, a means to an end, etc...stop and play it out.   ,,,”ok, when I’m done with this, I’ll then do X. After X, I’ll probably do Y. After Y, I’ll probably then do Z....at one point, I will be dead, and everything I ever did - will be gone. It will have amounted to - literally - nothing.”    Clarity arises, that there’s no “point” - other than being present, enjoying this - the only opportunity that it is possible to enjoy this - right now.  

[kag101]

On 03/01/2020 at 1:23 PM, Commodent said:

You think you know what I'm talking about, but it really doesn't seem like you do

Haha, talk about patronizing!

On 03/01/2020 at 1:23 PM, Commodent said:

Crucial for some people, maybe, if they happen to find a good therapist. Otherwise destructive. Similarly, the resources I mentioned

Your resources can also be destructive! (Depending on the teacher).

On 03/01/2020 at 1:23 PM, Commodent said:

No, traditional psychotherapy got a notoriously bad track record.

Evidence?

On 03/01/2020 at 1:23 PM, Commodent said:

It entirely depends on the therapist's empathic abilities

I highly disagree with that.

Can you justify your claim?  

On 03/01/2020 at 1:23 PM, Commodent said:

I'm not disregarding the value of meeting other people.

Important: A psychotherapist is not "other people" - but a professional who has studied for many years on how to help others solve psychological problems.

On 03/01/2020 at 1:23 PM, Commodent said:

I'm simply promoting the ability to be there for yourself, which is really the most important skill one can have IMO.

If a person has clinical depression it is impossible to be "there for oneself".

Btw - This topic is not just about psychotherapy. It is also about medication.

On 03/01/2020 at 1:23 PM, Commodent said:

Because, tell me, what do you do when there currently are no therapists in your presence?

I live my life to the best of my abilities. 

Then, I talk about what's going on in my weekly session. And insights arise.

 

On 03/01/2020 at 2:45 PM, Dan502 said:

Being able to talk "honestly without being judged

I don't think that's enough for a good psychotherapy session. I have had many therapists who would ALL the time nod their head and say things like "I see", "oh...", "Hmm...", etc.

Venting is not psychotherapy.

A good therapist should know the right time to interrupt. Mine speaks 5% of the time, but she is surgical.

On 03/01/2020 at 2:45 PM, Dan502 said:

Don't expect your friends and family, or really anyone else for that matter, to be supportive. Even some therapists don't believe long-term talk therapy is beneficial.

I definitely do not see myself going to therapy for more than 2 or 3 years.

In my case at least, medication is pivotal in my recovery process. I wouldn't have improved that much if I were still be overwhelmed by the zombieness of depression, and by the discomfort and restlessness of anxiety. My therapy would help a bit, but nothing extraordinary.

After I found the right medication, it's as if psychotherapy is on steroids. Like 10x more effective.

 

On 03/01/2020 at 2:55 PM, Nahm said:

”ok, when I’m done with this, I’ll then do X. After X, I’ll probably do Y. After Y, I’ll probably then do Z....at one point, I will be dead, and everything I ever did - will be gone. It will have amounted to - literally - nothing.”    Clarity arises,

Clarity arises? Lol. Depression would arise in my case haha.

I really don't think this nihilistic approach would help someone who's struggling with mental illness.

Instead of thinking about how everything will eventually be gone forever, I prefer to have a more positive, proactive approach to life. That is, define my life purpose, and fight for it.

Having no defined purpose is not healthy in my opinion. We are not like dogs and cats who can perfectly live a good life just by being safe, loved, and fed. I don't find this is fulfilling. Healthy ambition is really important!

I really like this episode:

 

On 03/01/2020 at 2:55 PM, Nahm said:

that there’s no “point” - other than being present, enjoying this - the only opportunity that it is possible to enjoy this - right now.  

One cannot be present and enjoy the ~Now~ if he or she has, for example, clinical depression.

It's not as if it's possible "cheat" life by accessing ~the Now~ and all one's problems will be solved.

I rathe plan the steps I am going to take to be back on my feet, and to have an awesome life. Seeking professional help was the first step. Then, patience is needed to know that it is a process, and I should not try and rush it.

If my psychology and brain chemistry are okay, I will naturally be in the Now. I will not have to "try" to be present, which is something that has never worked for me...

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by kag101

[Nahm]

35 minutes ago, kag101 said:

Clarity arises? Lol. Depression would arise in my case haha.

I really don't think this nihilistic approach would help someone who's struggling with mental illness.

By cutting my words where you did, you construct an impression of nihilism. By not editing mid sentence, you see that the intention is the opposite from what you’re implying. This is good to notice, for the sake of the depression, in the sense, noticing your perspectives, actions, behaviors, etc, might have something to do with how you’re feeling, right now. 

 

Quote

Instead of thinking about how everything will eventually be gone forever, I prefer to have a more positive, proactive approach to life. That is, define my life purpose, and fight for it.

Sounds good to me

Also notice there, you’ve covered your perspective from yourself, by implying it’s my perspective. When you read the words I wrote as a whole, you can see this. Again, I’m mentioning this with the intention it is beneficial for you to see how you’re recreating the discord (depression). 

 

Quote

Having no defined purpose is not healthy in my opinion. We are not like dogs and cats who can perfectly live a good life just by being safe, loved, and fed. I don't find this is fulfilling. Healthy ambition is really important!

 

For sure...define purpose.  If healthy ambition is important to you, maybe incorporate it into your life purpose. 

Quote

I really like this episode:

 

On 1/3/2020 at 0:55 PM, Nahm said:

that there’s no “point” - other than being present, enjoying this - the only opportunity that it is possible to enjoy this - right now.  

One cannot be present and enjoy the ~Now~ if he or she has, for example, clinical depression.

It's not as if it's possible "cheat" life by accessing ~the Now~ and all one's problems will be solved.

Indeed. Don’t cheat. Inspect, “do the work” so to speak. When a thought doesn’t feel good, listen to the feeling...and inspect the un-truth in the thought or perspective. 

Quote

I rathe plan the steps I am going to take to be back on my feet, and to have an awesome life.

Is it really a duality...a ‘rather’?  They seem the same, as that good feeling there, that planning, is transpiring, now. 

Quote

 

Seeking professional help was the first step. Then, patience is needed to know that it is a process, and I should not try and rush it.

If my psychology and brain chemistry are okay, I will naturally be in the Now. I will not have to "try" to be present, which is something that has never worked for me...

Sounds good to me. Not even sure what it is you’d be rushing. Feeling better, ...maybe? Not sure. Glad to hear you got the help you needed. I’m a big fan of utilizing all resources available. Sounds like you’re doing great. I believe a point will come for you where you get a laugh out of thinking you ever were not-now. ♥️??

[kieranperez]

@kag101

awesome stuff. You sound very similar to me. What kind of psychotherapy are you getting?

Inwould also point out that though, as counter intuitive as it may sound, that even enlightened people can feel very depressed. I actual have a friend I made out in Boulder, CO who has gotten very far in her consciousness work but still suffers from waves of what seemed like depression and even suicidal episodes. What’s important to understand is that these events are applying to a particular person that doesn’t exist. Or to put it more properly, Absolute Truth is true regardless of what is going on. You can still have suicidal moments and in a twisted sense still be totally fine with it all at the same time. In the end it can’t really be explained but it happens.

Personally for me my biggest breaks in my own enlightenments happen during waves of deeps spells of depression. 

[RevoCulture]

@kag101

Thanks sooooooo much for sharing.  Anyone who is suffering and questioning what to do, this is a light, a sign of hope.   Things can get better.

Congrats on your new found sense of life & ability to exist within it in greater comfort.. 

[Commodent]

13 hours ago, kag101 said:

If a person has clinical depression it is impossible to be "there for oneself".

As a person who suffered from chronic depression for over a decade and several bouts of double-depression I can confidently dis-confirm this. Ultimately, the ability to be there for myself was the only thing that worked, and the resources I mentioned was such a game-changer for me. Most other self-help resources out there, however, were not healing. Quite the opposite, really.

It's great that you found something that works for you. It does however seem to me that your dependency on psychotherapy is covering some feeling of lack, judging by how fiercely you are defending it. I could be wrong, but the times I have acted the way you do it has usually been when I was defending some ideology that provided me some false sense of comfort and security at the time. But such clinging to beliefs does in fact make you less secure and stable in the long run, because it's rooted in a lie.

Disagree with the details all you want, that is not what I care about. I am simply making a case for the abundance that is always present within you. If a psychotherapist helps you get in touch with that (instead of serving as a substitute), that's very good. But it's an utter lie that that's the only way.

[Pramit]

Good post OP. Thanks for sharing this. Hope you have the best time of your life now!

On 31/12/2019 at 2:15 AM, kag101 said:

 

She always dances to my tune, so to say, and direct the conversation when needed. She speaks only about 5-10% of the time, but when she opens her mouth, I know it will be something valuable. 

That's very interesting, both her behaviour and your association. 

[kag101]

On 20/01/2020 at 11:19 PM, Nahm said:

Is it really a duality...a ‘rather’?  They seem the same, as that good feeling there, that planning, is transpiring, now. 

I don't agree. The joy of expecting something is nowhere near as good as experiencing the joy of something good happening in the present moment.

I am going to give a very extreme example. Imagine a person who has the flu, and you say: "Oh, don't rush into the future. All you have is the eternal Now. No need to think about your symptoms. Just focus on this exact moment. You see? Your homeostasis is already here, in the Now. No need to go anywhere, no need to do anything."

On 20/01/2020 at 11:19 PM, Nahm said:

I’m a big fan of utilizing all resources available.

I'm a big fan of utilizing the right resources, the ones that have proven-record of getting good results.

On 20/01/2020 at 11:19 PM, Nahm said:

I believe a point will come for you where you get a laugh out of thinking you ever were not-now.

Bleh... I couldn't care less whether I am in the "now" or not, or whether I know that I am "always in the now" or not.

All I care is:

1) Am I feeling happy on a consistent basis?

2) Is my life is heading to the direction that I want?

I tried for many years to live 100% in the "present". I would try so hard that I would, paradoxically, completely get out of touch with it. Now that I have let go of this idea I feel like I am truly living in the here and now.

 

On 21/01/2020 at 1:16 AM, kieranperez said:

awesome stuff. You sound very similar to me. What kind of psychotherapy are you getting?

Thank you!

She has a doctorate on psychology, and she told me she focuses on psychoanalysis.

But, really, the technique per se is not the most important thing. 

That being said, I think it's really important to have a psychotherapist and not just a therapist. In other words, someone who is actually graduated in psychology.

“Know all the theories, master all the techniques, but as you touch a human soul be just another human soul.” --Carl Jung

 

On 21/01/2020 at 1:16 AM, kieranperez said:

What’s important to understand is that these events are applying to a particular person that doesn’t exist. Or to put it more properly, Absolute Truth is true regardless of what is going on.

What exactly do you mean by your claim that "the person doesn't exist"?

Is it that the sense of self is an illusion? Or is it that reality as a whole is not real?

On 21/01/2020 at 1:16 AM, kieranperez said:

You can still have suicidal moments and in a twisted sense still be totally fine with it all at the same time.

I know where you're coming from, but I completely disagree with that.

On 21/01/2020 at 1:16 AM, kieranperez said:

Personally for me my biggest breaks in my own enlightenments happen during waves of deeps spells of depression. 

I got good news for you: it is possible to neutralize those "waves of deep spells of depression". Science has evolved enough to give effective treatment that can balance you out. And the treatment is... wait for it... guess what, psychotherapy and meds.

I myself couldn't be having better results.

Seriously, after my doctor found the right medication & dosage, I feel like a different person. I don't want to give people unrealistic expectations, but my experience has been that, now, I am actually enjoying life. I have the energy to face challenges and engage in meaningful activities and focus on my Life Purpose. And I don't have deep worthless existential crisis anymore.

 

I personally don't like the word "enlightenment", because it seems like a magical thing and very prone to self-delusion.

I prefer to focus on self-actualization.

Call me "stage orange" all you want, but I couldn't care less about "Absolute Truth", I want to take be the master of my life.

It's like being a sailor. Should I let the sea take me to wherever it leads me to? No! Even though I can't control the sea, I can become a good sailor.

The ego (the sailor) is there for a reason. Otherwise, we would accept whatever life -- or as you put it "Absolute Truth" -- does to us, and we would quickly die.

Let's take a depressed person as an example:

"I can't get out of bed. I don't see the point in living. I hate my job. I hate my spouse. I don't feel fulfilled. Sometimes all I want is to disappear and dream forever. But, you what? I am not going to do anything. Everything is perfect as it is."

There's nothing spiritual about passivity; this is actually called spiritual bypassing.

 

On 21/01/2020 at 1:57 AM, RevoCulture said:

Thanks sooooooo much for sharing.  Anyone who is suffering and questioning what to do, this is a light, a sign of hope.   Things can get better.

Congrats on your new found sense of life & ability to exist within it in greater comfort.. 

Thanks a lot, man!

Yes, there is hope. But there must also be right action.

I had to take the first step, and force myself to go to a psychiatrist. The first one was pretty crappy. But I eventually found a good one. If I hadn't taken action, I would very likely still be feeling shitty and zombie-like.

Anyway, thank you very much for the kind words!

 

On 21/01/2020 at 1:35 PM, Commodent said:

As a person who suffered from chronic depression for over a decade and several bouts of double-depression I can confidently dis-confirm this.

I am sorry, but your anecdotal experience doesn't confirm or dis-confirm anything.

To say, one can "snap out" off clinical depression by being there for oneself is nonsense. Some cases of severe depression can make the person not even have the energy to eat or take a shower. So, I ask you: How on Earth could a person in that state of mind could offer emotional support to himself?

On 21/01/2020 at 1:35 PM, Commodent said:

It does however seem to me that your dependency on psychotherapy is covering some feeling of lack, judging by how fiercely you are defending it. I could be wrong, but the times I have acted the way you do it has usually been when I was defending some ideology that provided me some false sense of comfort and security at the time. But such clinging to beliefs does in fact make you less secure and stable in the long run, because it's rooted in a lie.

Bingo! However, read what you wrote here to yourself, but change "psychotherapy" to "your resources". That's my response to you. What you did here was nothing but a projection.

I am not fiercely defending psychotherapy and psychiatry. I am simply describing my experience, and questioning your arguments.

This strategy has worked for me and so it does to millions of people. And the results are not just anecdotal, they were obtained through rigorous guidelines.

On 21/01/2020 at 1:35 PM, Commodent said:

I am simply making a case for the abundance that is always present within you.

No, it is not.

First of all, there is such a thing called chemical imbalance. Therefore, no, the abundance is not always present within me.

I wonder if you'd say to a suicidal person, someone who hasn't had a good day in years, who is suffering from severe panic attacks daily: "Oh... you don't need to seek help. All the resources are already within yourself. You just have to get in touch with it."

 

On 21/01/2020 at 2:31 PM, Pramit said:

Good post OP. Thanks for sharing this. Hope you have the best time of your life now!

Thank you!

Yes, I think this is indeed the best time of my life.

I had glimpses in the past of well-being and wellness, but they never lasted. Depression would soon or later creep in, and would deplete all my vitality.

 

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, kag101 said:

I don't agree. The joy of expecting something is nowhere near as good as experiencing the joy of something good happening in the present moment.

I am going to give a very extreme example. Imagine a person who has the flu, and you say: "Oh, don't rush into the future. All you have is the eternal Now. No need to think about your symptoms. Just focus on this exact moment. You see? Your homeostasis is already here, in the Now. No need to go anywhere, no need to do anything."

Without imposing duality, there is just, Joy.    The flu example implies another duality & I agree with you, it doesn’t make sense.  

1 hour ago, kag101 said:

I'm a big fan of utilizing the right resources, the ones that have proven-record of getting good results.

Your “right” is only that. Psychiatry also has a proven record of not actually helping, and causing side effects and other ‘damages’. Marital counseling has a proven track record of putting the practitioner’s score keeping / reputation (keeping them married) ahead of the well being of the individuals.....is that opinion “right”?  “Using all resources available”....how do you know that there was nothing helpful in a resource you ruled out, without directly experiencing it? That seems to be required to sustain the belief an opinion, is more absolutely, “right”....the very ’thing‘ to be seen through, the suffering of the righteousness. Bombs are dropped on kids, literally, because it’s “the right thing to do” (one person’s opinion).

1 hour ago, kag101 said:

Bleh... I couldn't care less whether I am in the "now" or not, or whether I know that I am "always in the now" or not.

All I care is:

1) Am I feeling happy on a consistent basis?

2) Is my life is heading to the direction that I want?

I tried for many years to live 100% in the "present". I would try so hard that I would, paradoxically, completely get out of touch with it. Now that I have let go of this idea I feel like I am truly living in the here and now.

Sounds like you are at that point, “getting the joke”, already. It is wonderful to hear that you are happy on a consistent basis and that your life is headed in the direction that you want.