About Paul the apostle

[Unjigorjigor]

Peace 

I've been reading these forums for a while and I'm grateful for discovering this community. I think I've grown a lot from it. So thank you all for your contributions. 

I wanted to ask about apostle Paul as I've not seen anything about him here. 

He seems fully convinced that Jesus died for our sins. He says things like "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ who lives in me, and the life that I now I live I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness come by the law then Christ is dead in vain." He also says "As by one man sin came into the world, and death by sin; so death passed onto all men for that all have sinned..." and "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." And one more, "if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." 

Okay so, how could this be? This is also the teaching he died for, and he spread his belief very effectively. When I read his letters, I see that he is wise. I enjoy his first letter to Corinth and seeing how he deals with the issues that come up there. When I ask how could this be I mean, why is insisting on a lamb sacrifice philosophy? Is he simply implanting Judaism into the new movement that began around the man Jesus so as to keep its spirit alive? He was a radical pharisee, and persecuted the church initially until he had a conversion on the road to Damascus. His Jesus isn't the enlightened man who is like the Buddha before him, or Lord Krishna, who ultimately has the same message as these; he makes Jesus our saviour and says a confession with the mouth is for salvation. Salvation from the wrath of God which is his righteous anger against our sin, which we have because of our sinful nature, which we have because of Adam who first sinned. This is not nonduality, which makes me sad, it also implies the fruit was real and literal and that man's condition is fallen until he is redeemed and the Holy Spirit enters him; which is another entity outside of us who must fill us. 

These ideas are well expressed by him and his letters have the tone of sincerity and reason as far as I can tell, but it also puts him at odds with a lot of spirituality from other systems, whereas I find that with almost all other systems nonduality is the principal underlying whatever else is being said. I struggle to imagine that he of all the wise men has it right and therefore it will in fact come down to a judgment day where all that counts is if you gave your life to Lord Jesus and accepted his grace by faith: "for you are saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves it is a gift from God, not of works lest any man should boast." What are your thoughts? 

[Bill W]

20 minutes ago, Unjigorjigor said:

This is not nonduality, which makes me sad

Thanks for your post. I'm very new to the Bible. Me considering myself Christian is a new thing for me.  I've just finished my first book of the bible from start to finish (Gospel of John). The rest of the Bible I only know through various versus I've collected along the way. In a few months time I would probably have been better placed to contribute to this. I'll be interested in what others say. 

I was just curious as to the above quote from you. Why would someone be sad if something "is not nonduality?", genuine question. Not a trolling comment. I'm really interested if you don't saying? 

[Unjigorjigor]

14 minutes ago, Bill W said:

I was just curious as to the above quote from you. Why would someone be sad if something "is not nonduality?", genuine question. Not a trolling comment. I'm really interested if you don't saying? 

Hmm... the term nonduality just does the best job of communicating the idea of oneness, unity, etc. but no its not that I'm sad if something is " not nonduality"; let's put the term aside and come to the meaning, the meaning is that all is one, that everything is united, that there is unity at bottom in all the diversity. If it is not this way then... If man and woman are not human... Without the unifying quality things move away, separate, are divisive by nature. Without unity it is also impossible to know anything or love anyone. I mean if unity was not a principle. If oneness was not definitive of things. And if it is, but not in the case of God, then all the problems which would arise if it wasn't in any other case would arise with God. Again, if man and woman are not also at once human, the differences would be all, and we would be separate, even opposite. If God is separate from anything at all that would mean that howsoever you define God you must give the opposite quality to the other thing. If God is good, and is separate, all else is evil. If God is good and is one with everything, goodness then is the quality of everything. So I personally prefer to share in the qualities of the highest good and would love it if everything else was of that same quality. It is sad to me if it is not this way. The alternative is the upward effort to becoming good, but how is that possible if I'm already evil? If God is not me, and he is good, and there is duality but not nonduality at bottom, then I am evil and so is anything else that is not God. How then can the evil be good? By becoming God seems the only way. These are the results of God being something other than me myself. All systems which I've studied seem to speak of this, except Paul's. His lamb sacrifice to me does seem to answer the disparity and close the gap, by putting a mediator between God and man, as he says: "there is one God, and one meditator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus." He says we give up our nature which is evil, because it is seperate from God's, which is good, and we accept Christ's nature as a gift which then reconciles us to God. 

[Leo Gura]

@Unjigorjigor A) You're reading it too litterally. Mystical teaching are not meant to read that way.

B) You are almost certianly reading words that were not written my a highly God-realized being.

C) The tragedy of Jesus was that one of the most God-realized people on this planet was executed by his own kind for speaking truth and love. This is the timeless tragedy of mankind. It's not unique to Jesus at all. Jesus "died for our sins" in the sense that ignorant egos killed an egoless man. God killed God. Happens all the time.

The mistake is trying to grant Jesus some kind of unique status. If you do that, you completely miss the point.

The people who worshipped Jesus did not really understand him. So stop taking their words seriously, as if they knew God. When you really know God, Jesus becomes irrelevant.

[mandyjw]

The strange thing to wrap your head around is that Christianity, even misunderstood, did a lot of good and played an important role in the evolution of consciousness. At the time Jesus came, a handful of people were ready for that kind of teaching. He intimately taught his disciples, with not that great of a success rate, and Mary was not just some random woman that gave birth to Jesus, but rather she was chosen to be his first spiritual teacher. He did not become who he was without intense study and meditation. That's why he gives Mary and John to each other as he dies on the cross, and that's why the book of John is closest to the true teaching of Christ. 

Christianity became a fire escape, a hope of life after death just through saying the right words and thinking the right thought, and gave purpose to suffering. It could not have spread so much if the true teachings were understood and preserved. Some people got a fire escape, some people weren't satisfied and went deeper. It was the will of God that Christianity, at least for the time, become a cheap and easily accessible invitation of hope to everyone. Instead of a quest for enlightenment only available for the chosen few with the drive and ability, it became a watered down, democratic religion for the masses. You have to admit, there's a kind of beauty and grace there in that. I think Paul played an important role in that. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by mandyjw

[Matt8800]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Unjigorjigor A) You're reading it too litterally. Mystical teaching are not meant to read that way.

B) You are almost certianly reading words that were not written my a highly God-realized being.

C) The tragedy of Jesus was that one of the most God-realized people on this planet was executed by his own kind for speaking truth and love. This is the timeless tragedy of mankind. It's not unique to Jesus at all. Jesus "died for our sins" in the sense that ignorant egos killed an egoless man. God killed God. Happens all the time.

The mistake is trying to grant Jesus some kind of unique status. If you do that, you completely miss the point.

The people who worshipped Jesus did not really understand him. So stop taking their words seriously, as if they knew God. When you really know God, Jesus becomes irrelevant.

Exactly ^^^

[Unjigorjigor]

@Leo Gura @mandyjw

Thank you for your responses. 

Every time I speak to Christians they go to Paul and so I wanted to determine if he could be synthesised, but he is rather proud of his gospel: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." I commend him for this audacity, because a spiritual teacher should believe his teaching, although I don't like his attitude; but now today we have a hard time waking the Christians up because of this. My spiritual journey began with Christianity and as a Christian I was very zealous, but never in the way of the church, hence I started exploring outside because I wondered, "how can we all read the same bible and such an institution like the church can exist?" I felt this way based on what I was seeing from the inside. I worked at a church for a while. And, most Christians I find do not read the bible. Christianity is about the new testament mostly which is mostly Paul's letters; no matter with how much reason you speak to Christians they are proud to hold Paul's perspective, and scared because of his scare tactics, to hold any other. One of the most frustrating statements from him is "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." And then a little later, "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." Christians I've tried reasoning with dismiss me with this, because they are happy to be foolish thanks to this. I was always told by my pastor that my intellect gets in the way of my faith, but nevertheless he could never answer my questions. It didn't matter though because according to Paul God will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and put to nothing the understanding of the prudent. I've been isolated from my family too because I have journeyed beyond so-called orthodox Christianity and I try to show deeper things. I'm always reminded that Jesus is the only way. I'm sure they think I'll be burning, that I've lost my faith. But I myself am happy to use the bible as a part of my reading and I still do, I'm quite competent in the bible, I read it in the Greek, but when I show interpretations which as you say Leo are more "mystical", it is seen as heresy. I challenged the trinity at theological college and made a lot of people angry. The reason I thought this thread was necessary was because the Christians close their ears and we need to know Paul's thinking to address them in their own language. But I was hoping Paul could be synthesised with all the other wisdom tradiations. For the most part he can but it is on the point of the death and resurrection of Jesus, and the significance of it that he is on his own. (The gnostics claim Paul is theirs to be fair, and they have a way of reading him, it just seems like they are doing a lot of work with his words to say the things they say.) Christmas is coming up soon and people are singing the carols and everyone is worshipping the saviour, celebrating his birth, and it is completely normal, and others who are like me are heretics. I live in South Africa and we're very orthodox Christian, very pentecostal, and I don't meet many enlightened people. Not even many Christians who at least understand gnosticism or some of the esoteric strains of Christianity. In fact I've only met one person who has gone beyond that church orthodoxy. Plotinus describes the spiritual path as "the flight of the alone to the alone", and frankly I wouldn't want what happened to Christianity to happen to enlightenment, I wouldn't want it to be mainstream because that's when it would sufficate. But I'd still like to see those I care about liberated. 

[Leo Gura]

Tis ironic that most Christians are devils. Then again, how else could it be?

Merry Christmas

[Bill W]

@Leo Gura

There are about 2.2 billion Christians according to the internet, so that means at least 1.11 billion Devils. But I will let them know that you mean devil in a kind and loving way , and that you are promoting that there is a path out of devilry for everyone should they choose to take this path. 

The horse has not bolted, the ship has not sailed. There is still time for everyone to let go of their devilry. Me included.

[Leo Gura]

@Bill W Don't forget to tell the Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and Buddhists that they are also devils

[mandyjw]

@Unjigorjigor Intellect gets in the way of faith, faith gets in the way of intellect, until through love you see they are not what you thought, but instead are the same thing. If you believe that faith will save you, you will be too afraid of what it's supposed to save you from to surrender to what real faith is. 

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@Bill W Don't forget to tell the Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and Buddhists that they are also devils

Atheists, skeptics and agnostics, too, ya devil.

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, mandyjw said:

Atheists, skeptics and agnostics, too

Obviously

[Angelite]

As long as you're sincere, you'll be fine. 

Anyone with the slightest hidden ego, will be damned. 

[Angelite]

Salvation is true. There are followers of Jesus who genuinely followed his every steps back then and attain salvation. 

But the later generation, corrupt it by doing sins, thinking that their sins will be forgiven. 

Those who killed him, were not sure if they really do.

 

[Angelite]

God is good at protecting His lovers. 

25.Furqān [The Criterion] ♣

18. They* say, "Glory be to You. It was not proper for us that we take besides You any protectors. But You gave them and their forefathers comforts until they forgot the Message, and became a people ruined. 

...

*They here is referring to those who are worshipped besides God. Eg. Jesus (Peace & blessings be upon him).

Re:17-20 , Qurān.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Angelite

[Conscious life]

@Leo Gura

@Unjigorjigor ❝He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.❞

  —John 3: 18 (KJV)

❝Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.❞

  —John 5: 24 (KJV)

 

❝Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.❞

  —John 6: 47 (KJV)

❝Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.❞

  —John 6: 53 (KJV)

A good topic to contemplate upon. 

 

[Aaron p]

@Unjigorjigor you gotta figure out for yourself that you are Jesus. You are God, manifest in the flesh and you must die and be born a second time (born again). Born another time, but this time as the ruler of creation, with God, as God. 

There are soooooooo many correlations between the Bible and nondual teachings. For example, Leo released a video explaining how "good and evil" are contingent upon *you*. A thing is defined as being good or bad only when it is good or bad *for you*. This explains why the tree that Adam and Eve ate from (this is an analogy) was called the *tree of the knowledge of good and evil.* When the Bible says they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil it's basically pointing to the moment when mankind developed the individualistic ideas. Ego. 

So many patterns, it's amazing. But yes, you are Jesus in your universe. I am Jesus in my universe. And once this is realised and becomes real it really becomes fucking real. 

"It is no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives in me." 

1 John 4:17 "In this world we are like Jesus."

The only mistake religion makes is, there is no actual transformation. I live in Northern Ireland where religion is extremely popular. Protestantism and Catholicism. Protestantism is slightly closer to truth I think. 

"Be ye transformed by the renewal of your mind." This refers to the long process of emptying the mind and dying to your self.

It's so cool now I can see it all

[mandyjw]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously

There's still quite a few people here who don't appreciate this or think their study of Buddhism has checked the "I understand the purpose of religion now" box. Studying a religion and taking wisdom from it is not religion at all. Religion is a catalyst for knowing and experiencing love and devotion so strong it burns up the ego. Without individual empowerment and understanding that purpose has been used and abused in history. It looks like weakness, like surrender looks like weakness to those who don't understand it. But that function itself is necessary for enlightenment. The function itself is unavoidably created whenever someone starts teaching and gets a following. Just like a candle flame serves for a point of focus and fascination in meditation, the teacher itself becomes a point of focus just as Jesus became. A lot of people find this horrifying, but if you came to earth to teach yourself, how you you ever recognize yourself if it wasn't through love? 

[Unjigorjigor]

@Angelite  When I first read the Qur'an I had a great dilemma because it tore into the main beliefs of Christianity, and well. Jesus is a man here (held in honour) and he was not crucified, those two claims bump into Paul (specifically regarding the crucifixion, as far as I can tell it isn't obvious that Paul is trinitarian, that seems to me to be a misreading by the church. Paul always seems to me to distinguish between God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.) It was when I came to the Qur'an in my journey that my orthodox Christianity came crashing down. It is verse after verse of plain sense and threat of fire. A Furqān as you say. Here is a sample of how he damages Christianity: 

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not."

Sura 4:117 

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth."

Sura 4:171 

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary."

Sura 5:17 

"They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode."

Sura 5:72 

"For it is not consonant with the majesty of Allah, Most Gracious, that He should beget a son."

Sura 19:92

I found it easy to come to monotheism or let's say unitarianism from trinitarianism, but I struggled so long with what is said about the cross and what it is meant to mean seeing that, at face value, the Qur'an and New Testament are at odds. It's easy to think that Paul was not a trinitarian; he was a devout jew and they would never accept that God is three in one, for them God is just one and this is absolutely fundamental. But as for the cross, this is his whole teaching! "Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,..."

That verse in Qur'an saying Jesus wasn't even crucified is the only verse dealing with the crucifixion; in about 50 words Muhammad rejects Paul's entire ministry. If he wasn't even crucified then what is Paul going on about? And all of Christianity since? As is my habit I tried to reconcile them; I am an idealist in that I believe that the people who have guided mankind spiritually should surely, surely all be saying the same thing but in different ways according to time and culture. My attempt to reconcile them led me to gnosticism, which also says Jesus wasn't really crucified (certain sides of gnosticism that is), and gnosticism took me to Plato and the neoplatonists, and they took me to a knowledge of the One, which is equivalent in essence to nonduality. The gnostics say that the true teachings of Christianity were always taught in secret, and communicated in veiled form from the time of Jesus, so that only the wise and discerning could understand it. This saying from Paul they use to show how he had a hidden message that wasn't expressed publicly in his letters: "...However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." 

So in some sense Islam initiated me into the esoteric and mystical, which sent me upward to the high Unity, the One and Only, and I'm grateful to the prophet of Islam (even though he intimidates me.) Even with Islam though I needed Sufism or else I would've had to run from him, and I did until I found Sufism. With Sufism I can extrapolate the same spiritual sense without being frightened by Muhammad's dominant personality into keeping Sharia, which I think is time-bound and cultural. He is a warrior and his text is a fiery law. 

 

 

[Angelite]

@Unjigorjigor have you read "The Tablespread"? Chapter 5. It speaks about the Jews and the Christians a lot. Including their rules etc. 

Islam is an easier version of those rules/guidelines. 

Qurān[29:27]And We gave to  him(Abraham)Isaac and Jacob and placed in his descendants prophethood and scripture. And We gave him his reward in this world, and indeed, he is in the Hereafter among the righteous.

About salvation, re:Chapter5, 110-120

Did you read the Jewish bible? I think it has more clarity(compared to the christian bible). But Qurān have everything in a nutshell. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Angelite