Perspectives on Awake

[V-8]

Considering the number of people who claim to be "awake," most of whom contradict each other (exclaiming "their truth"), it should be apparent that there are many levels of "awake;" and few of which are actually Truly Awake.

"Contradictions in perspective among those Seeing the profound do not occur" – Taranatha.

More than 99.9% people on this planet are asleep,...95% don't even realize it's a Dream.   

"We have to learn to know what rhythm we're in, how to ride with it, how to shift; to sense what rhythm others are in,  and how the different rhythms are complementary or discordant" - Gabrielle Roth.

 "What Rhythm are you in?"  Jonathan Horan

"Everything in the universe has a rhythm; everything dances"  Maya Angelou

"Where are you on the potentially endless wave of human evolution?"  Ken Wilbur

"To honestly inquire into our rhythmic signature, and realizing it, we acquaint ourselves with our place, and unique pathway to liberation."  Gata de Aztlán

There are several models to determine what level you're at,...such a Spiral Dynamics.  At SD 9 (Coral), one is Truly Awake,...at SD 8 (Turquoise) one is Truth Realized,...at SD 7 (Yellow) one is Self-Actualized.  

"Only one in a hundred people become fully self-actualized because our society rewards motivation primarily based on esteem, [superficial] love and other social needs"   Abraham Maslow

Yes,...many First-tier Thinkers believe that there must be many "stages" beyond Coral,...but how can that be,...what's more awake then Awake?

Many seek to "know themselves,"...and yet it is impossible to know Who you are, until you realize When you are.  The crux is,...to realize When you are necessitates absolute honesty,...and Liberation from sentience.  The senses can only know the past.

 "Those who are greatly deluded about enlightenment are sentient beings." Dōgen

"The person who gathers knowledge through the six senses is categorized by the Buddha as a lunatic." Sabbe Putajjana Unmattaka.

"The senses do not know, but man believes that his senses do know--and in that belief lies man's confusion" - Walter Russell    

Sentient Beings include all those in the lower 6 substance levels of Spiral Dynamics.  Thus, SD 5 (Orange) considers themselves 'awake" compared to the Absolutist SD 4 (Blue), and SD (Green) believe they're "Woke" compared to the Individualists SD 5 (Orange) and all Others.  Only at Yellow (SD 7) do entities open to learning at any time and from any source,  like bees that gather nectar from many flowers.  

Millions and millions claim to be spiritually awake, yet I'd bet that 99.9% have no idea what the words spiritual or awake actually imply.  One cannot realize Spirituality through the patriarchal paradigms of Form, nor what is Awake while dreaming.
 
To be Literally Awake is quite easy to define,...and that definition applies to everyone.   To be awake is to have a Conscious Awareness of the Absolute Present.

Sentient Beings can only perceive the past.  NO ONE can see, taste, touch, hear, smell, or think in the Present.   "The senses do not grasp reality in any way." Socrates

Dreams are the perceptions of ego while asleep in Duality.  There is no dreaming without the Drego, typically occurring at night, and ego, typically occurring in the day.  All dreams are about the past; extentions of patriarchal energy that can only perceive motion in one direction.   Patriarchal energy is Yang, Particle, Form in denial of Yin, Wave, Empty of Form.  The Feminine of Duality is not a gender of Form, but the Wave of a Particle.

"The Buddha Shakyamuni often told his disciples to regard all phenomena as dreams."  Gata de Aztlán  

"Treat everything you perceive as a dream." says the Lojong proverb to uncover Bodhicitta.

In the later part of the fifth century BCE, Sakyamuni was said to be spending an evening with a family, and in the early hours of the morning, someone asked him, "'Do you dream?"

Sakyamuni replied, “I used to dream; then I became Buddha (a Tathagata).

The word Buddha is generally agreed to have come from the root bud meaning to be aware of, or awaken.   Sakyamuni Buddha was thus an Awakened One.  Buddha referred to himself as a Tathagata, one who doesn't Come and Go.

"Thoughts come and go.  Feelings come and go.  Find out what it is that remains."  Ramana Maharshi

To paraphrase Adyashanti, a true Spiritual Master is one who shakes you awake, not one who tells you how to dream better.  

"A real Master is not a teacher: a real Master is an awakener. His function is totally different from a teacher; his function is far more difficult. And only very few people can stay with a Master because to wake up after millions of lives is not an ordinary feat; it is a miracle. And to allow somebody to wake you up needs great trust, great surrender."   Osho

[LfcCharlie4]

Honestly despite our discussion this is to help you, I remember being exactly like this.

constantly going to the books, to the models, to everything except inside myself. These models and books have great value, especially SD which is great for showing evolutionary psychology. 

However, in terms of awakening there comes a time when you have to LET IT GO. Conceptually you have an amazing understanding, but that gets you nowhere in this work. 

LET IT GO.

jump in the fire, jump in the abyss, see what is waiting for you, in your direct experience, not what these endless people quote, they do that to help awaken people! 

Face the silence, face whatever it is you’re avoiding and abide there, believe me when you get to “the other side” it’s fucking worth it, but it’s not always easy. 

I am not meaning to act superior or better or “more awake” I just know how it feels to be stuck in concepts and the fact you referred to books as your main source of info tells me you’re a typical 570/580/590s guy from the LOC map.

yes awakening has depths, and it goes VERY fucking deep, if you’re into that I’d suggest you check out the Book 1000, that details non dual “stages” if you will. 

But once you finish reading it drop it all and jump in, or just don’t read it and jump in the fire, that’ll probably help you more! 

THIS IS IT, this very moment is everything you could ever need or want, once you realise that, your seeking days are over. 

[V-8]

4 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Honestly despite our discussion this is to help you, I remember being exactly like this.

constantly going to the books, to the models, to everything except inside myself. These models and books have great value, especially SD which is great for showing evolutionary psychology. 

However, in terms of awakening there comes a time when you have to LET IT GO. Conceptually you have an amazing understanding, but that gets you nowhere in this work. 

LET IT GO.

jump in the fire, jump in the abyss, see what is waiting for you, in your direct experience, not what these endless people quote, they do that to help awaken people! 

 

Yes,...reasoned argument with First-tier thinkers is usually difficult,...however, discussion with First-tier thinkers who believe they are Second-tier is futile.

About V Panetta:  Not interested in personal truths, Me Stories, nor empirical beliefs,...

"Man's present civilization is erected upon the foundation of empirical knowledge obtained through his senses.  In other words, the so-called "knowledge" upon which man relies is founded upon the evidence of his senses, or more simply, upon the nonexistent waves of motion of a nonexistent substance."  Walter Russell.

LfcCharlie4,...I can understand that you're fixated on particular paradigms, and have difficulty with "endless people quote,"...a comment that's a sure tell of your level of Conscious Awareness,...however, maintaining FMS (false memory syndrome) regarding what I write, such as that "you referred to books as your main source of info," is imaginary on your part.

Actually, my posts have said that I seldom read books,...and don't recall reading one this century,...although I've written three.   Usually notice quotes following direct experience,...I actually don't think much.

What's going on here seems to be what is called projection,...you have yet to experience Unfeigned Surrender, and instead are suggesting I haven't because of my use of quotes,...which makes it obvious that you have yet to Let Go.

I'll tell you about my first Letting Go,...the beginning part (not what occurred for the 9-10 hours afterwards),...it was December 1974,...without any hope or expectation, over the period of a week, I gave away or threw away all my possessions, which included $thousands worth of camera and stereo equipment,...wrote thank you notes,...and an end of life (or suicide) note,...and without Gods, things divine, or imaginary guardians for protection,....Let Go.

No jumping into fire, nor an abyss,...no visuals are included in real Letting Go.   

 más allá del Finisterre,...(Beyond the End of the Known World).

It's a shame that you appear to have not read even one of my posts,...but instead entered them with a predisposition about responding through your book knowledge which you cling to for your identity, but hide by way of imagined stories of what letting go is.

Experience born of belief can only be experience through the conditions of that belief,...thus not a Direct Experience.   All belief must be Let Go to have a direct experience, even the desire for a direct experience.   Any expectation tethers you to the past.  

[LfcCharlie4]

@V-8 lol okay, yes because you’re older than me you are sure to be more wise, and the fact you refer to yourself as a second tier thinker and me as a first without knowing me is hilarious, yet say I have an issue with paradigms. 

I am literally talking from direct experience haha, as I stated, you are the one who keeps referring to SD as a model, not me mate.

In terms of experience of reality, I only talk from direct experience and refrained from talking on here until I had multiple awakenings, as I am personally sick of seeing teachers who aren’t finished seeking, the world is full of enough of them. 

Letting go also has nothing to do with giving away possessions haha, What I let go of is absolutely everything to realise this is it.

The fact you keep using your superiority complex to say you’re a tier two thinker is funny, I hope if I get to your age I don’t develop a complex like that, true masters see everyone as merely themselves. 

Sorry if I was wrong about the books, I thought I saw that on the other thread and your obsession with models made me think that, that’s all  

To be honest, I have a life to live instead of argue, my life only truly begun after these recent awakenings over the last 7 months, and I see you as nothing other than myself. 

I do not deny on a human level I have a lot of work to do, I want to build ny businesses a lot further, optimise my health, eventually become a 1-1 teacher who gives transmissions, improve my fitness and sporting ability, better my relationships and most importantly continue to deepen my love for life and live the best life possible, I’m only 20 but so far I think it’s going alrighy! 

Seeking is coming to a close, every day my experience of this becomes deeper and deeper, and once seeking finishes besides teaching and helping they’ll be no need to talk about Non-Duality anymore, as the 10th Zen picture shows! 

 I wish you nothing but happiness, and to enjoy the rest of your life.

i also apologise for any assumptions I made about you as I don’t know you at all, and I’d appreciate if you stopped the subtle superiorities you try to push. 

In terms of my “conscious awareness” I can not begin to explain how much it has deepened in the last 7 months, I feel like I’ve been reborn and one day like this is purely incredible compared to before, but thanks for your concern  

i am also not projecting anything, I did feel as if you were a typical conceptual guy who got it conceptually, I could be wrong, I prefer direct experience personally  

i only come on here to learn from others in areas I need help, and to help others mainly in whatever way I can as I no how hard it can be to suffer as a seeker, usually I don’t get entertainment but today I did so thank you. 

I think I might even look more into Wui We Wui as a fellow Englishman I’m fascinated by his journey, and the fact he is also clearly finished as Ramana is, as Nisgardatta is! 

Enjoy your Saturday night, the purpose of life is to be happy, have fun and live the best life you can and help as many people along the way in my eyes, and that’s exactly what I intend to do!

[Codrina]

Totally agree @LfcCharlie4 'the purpose of life is to be happy, have fun and live the best life you can and help as many people along the way'

And for some people fun and happy is greater diversity than the average mundane life - concepts, perspectives, inspiration in moment - I have to admit I enjoy reading quotes. A good quote is like a painting - condensed  information - contemplation - nice way to end your Saturday evening. 

Or 'Mental masturbation', as Leo likes to put it.

It's all a story in the end. It's your story and my story, and all stories ever told. One consciousness, lying to itself that it is more than one. With ever more intricate patterns. So why not enjoy it and play your role well - and in tough times remind yourself that all good stories have  a plot

[Leo Gura]

On 12/20/2019 at 9:04 AM, V-8 said:

"Contradictions in perspective among those Seeing the profound do not occur" – Taranatha

Hahaha

Cute

[Inliytened1]

@V-8 Haha. Keep em coming I'm starting to like it :)??

[Angelite]

This post & replies is crushing me.

I see who's the kids now. 

Edit: ^this can be interpreted in many ways. 

By kids, I mean those whose judgement is most distorted from truth. 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Angelite

[Amandine]

@V-8 I notice you don't have a "signature". Is this because you can't decide which one to pick, haha? 

What would be your absolute favorite one?

Genuinely curious. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Amandine

[WelcometoReality]

@V-8 Yes there are different levels of awakening.

Awakening from mind. The realization that you are nothingness.

Awakening of the heart. The boundries of separation dissolve and you realize you are everything.

The awakening from gut. The realization of being something. The awakening to the body.

[Girzo]

On 20.12.2019 at 4:04 PM, V-8 said:

Yes,...many First-tier Thinkers believe that there must be many "stages" beyond Coral,...but how can that be,...what's more awake then Awake?

I don't know where you have taken this idea from, but it's not true.

The world of Form is constructed as such that there is always a being more capable than you. As you are a god to some bugs or bacteria, there must be beings that are this way to you. So you can evolve in that direction forever.

It might be that at some point this model will break and be no longer suitable to map your progress, but that doesn't mean there are no more stages. Some other model would need to be constructed.

[remember]

more awake than awake would be probably vibrant, or illuminated or transcendent or invigorated and then there would still be the ing you could also be awakening.

Edited December 22, 2019 by remember
there are still some major/minor mistakes in the graphic - didn`t change.

[V-8]

On 12/21/2019 at 11:31 AM, LfcCharlie4 said:

@V-8 lol okay, yes because you’re older than me you are sure to be more wise, and the fact you refer to yourself as a second tier thinker

 

 

Actually, wisdom is associated with age,...wisdom  an accumulation of knowledge through sensory experience (acquired through sight, sound, taste, touch, smell, and thought),...wisdom is the highest and most lofty ideas of that ego experience.

Wisdom literally means knowledge accumulated through philosophic or scientific learning. In other words, wisdom points to the highest and most lofty ideas of ego consciousness, whose sole purpose is to sustain itself. Wisdom is to make the best use of knowledge,...yet to realize enlightenment means to let go of all knowledge. Knowledge is acquired through thinking/the Head-mind,...mental inertia,...the truth arises from gnowledge/the Heart-Mind.

An Awakened being has no use of wisdom.

Gnowledge or prajna is not tied to age or human experience.  LfcCharlie4 says he posts from Direct Experience,...however I'm not reading that in your posts,...all I'm getting is lots Conditioned Experience that pivots from hope or anticipation for future status.  

"In terms of experience of reality" - LfcCharlie4.     YES!!!  Let's discuss that.

"The senses do not grasp reality in any way" Socrates

There is no denying that LfcCharlie4 has had "multiple awakenings, as I am personally sick of seeing teachers who aren’t finished seeking, the world is full of enough of them." Fortunately I'm not a teacher for you to seek your disgust upon.   To me, teaching would be among the most dishonest of positions.

"The purest teachings usually come from teachers who are not surrounded and supported by followers or an organization. Books of a pure teacher never had a wide audience."    Dr. Stanley Sobottka

If your (LfcCharlie4 )Letting Go is contingent on your definition of absolutely everything,  then your definition of absolutely everything must not include very much.   

I've not once said as you argue that I have a "superiority complex" or saying I'm a "tier two thinker ."   Nevertheless, seems I've tweaked your mental inertia more than just a bit.

Of course your fall-back position is that you "have a life to live,:...an excellent Tell that your awakenings are all within the lower 6 substance levels,...and that's great,...I'm not belittling your shifts from SD 4 to SD 5.   I simply don't relate with that stuff,...like when your meet a couple with young children and all they resonate with is their children's activities and dreams.

And that's great you want to "build a business and become a teacher who gives transmissions,"...I recall the day when I realized that nearly all "transmissions" from Lineage Holders since the 13th century were BS.  

Nine months after my first awakening (of which I'm not referring to SD 9), I retired,...the Universe was not here for me (to build a business and become a teacher of transmissions) but I was here for the Universe.  That's what Absolute Letting Go is about.  Something more akin to Somerset Maugham's Razor's Edge or Gurdjeiff's All and Everything.

Twenty years old is a great time of life,...at 19 I read an awesome (IMO) quote that fully altered my then perspective about things,...."Soon we all will die; our hopes and fears will be irrelevant” - Padmasambhava

I didn't want to wait until death to potentially be relevant.   So at 19, began focusing on the nature of hope and fear.

"In order to obliterate the mind that grasps appearances as real, and to realize the true way of things, without hope and fear, shall give rise to bodhicitta." Jigme Lingpa, The Dakini's Laughter

Ego loves to focus on not having fear,....but what sustains fear is hope,...and ego adores hope.

True spirituality focuses on the liberation from hope.

hope n. from ME. hopa, an expectation. 1. expectation of something desired; anticipation of some future event. 2. a guess or belief. 3. that which gives hope; a substance or object hoped for; an expected payoff.

Is there a more dishonest, perniciousness word than hope?

No matter what level we wish to view it from, hope is false. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past.  Hope implies lack,...how else could we possibly define it? Hope is for something we think we don't possess.

How could hope ever be expressed through an Open-Mind or Open-Heart ?  The belief of hope is a barrier that obscures the present.

If our attention is on seeking hope, how are we to ever experience the immediacy required to be in the Present?  

“the highest goal is being devoid of hope and fear….
And when all hopes and fears have died, the Goal is reached.”  Tilopa
 

Ego likes to believe that "consciousness" is individual, separate from all other "consciousnesses."   The relative reality is that the body (which is NOT part of the Whole) has levels of Conscious Awareness.   As Easterners say, we are not in our bodies, our bodies are inside us.  

I agree that Ramana and Nisgardatta are interesting reading,....I consumed such interesting  fellows in my youth,...not for seeking,...but as how they explained their experiences.    Many, many have unfortunately adopted the paradigms of Advaita or Nonduality,...belief systems that will keep one in the 3rd density - 6th density Loop.  

I don't know what SD Stage Friedrich Nietzsche was at,...perhaps a high functioning Yellow (SD 7),...however, this quote of his is a gateway is Turquoise (SD 8).... "Whoever has the blood of theism in his veins, stands from the start in a false and dishonest position to all things."

[V-8]

On 12/22/2019 at 2:29 AM, Girzo said:

I don't know where you have taken this idea from, but it's not true.

The world of Form is constructed as such that there is always a being more capable than you. As you are a god to some bugs or bacteria, there must be beings that are this way to you. So you can evolve in that direction forever.

I

For me, that's linear, empirical (or First-tier) thinking that believes in concepts such as infinity.

Infinity is voguish belief topic among the object-ive minded. Theories of infinite space, time, and quantity are just more object-ive math. Definitions of infinity are related or relative to the concept of immeasurability in space, time, or quantity. However, if there is no space, time, or quantity, as implied by quantum cosmology, then there is no infinity. In contrast, the word eternity points to that which is without beginning or end, timelessness beyond the perception of space, time, and quantity. Recognizing the difference between infinity and eternity is inevitable for those shifting towards an earnest spiritual viewpoint and subsequently a clearer understanding of consciousness. Time and eternity are contradictions.

The glorification of empirical evidence by Priests of Science encourages a potentially incurable neurosis for humanity.  Nothing wrong with empirical evidence if understood in its proper place, that is, empiricism is based on objects that ultimately do not exist. Empirical evidence is skandha evidence. The skandhas (or five aspects that constitute the sentient beingness) do not exist, that is, do not stand alone, thus are not real.

To observe a thing solely by way of the senses is to perceive an object-ive, crystallized, segregated reality that undermines all solutions. This is why physicists have yet to define light. Their ability to know has been impaired through belief systems, such as the concept of empirical knowledge. Empiricism is derived from an ego-governed intellect, which filters observation and impedes direct experience. Experience born of belief, can only be experienced through the condition that belief. Yet science is motivated to believe what they do through empirical data.  

"Man's present civilization is erected upon the foundation of empirical knowledge obtained through his senses.  In other words, the so-called "knowledge" upon which man relies is founded upon the evidence of his senses, or more simply, upon the nonexistent waves of motion of a nonexistent substance."  Walter Russell.

Empiricism is a paradigm based on the 6 senses.

"As man unfolds from sensed man to spiritual man he gradually becomes aware of the two-way motion of all effect" - Walter Russell.

"the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go."   Lao-tzu

"Do not seek it in the visible, or you'll be at it forever with no real results.  It's not visible, it's not part of the senses, it's before the senses, prior to the senses."  - Bentinho Massaro

"you think the material universe is all there is?  What mysteries lie beyond the reach of your senses?  Who are you Dr Strange?"  Ancient One; Dr Strange 2016

"Love can never dominate the world until man ceases to live a primarily sensed existence and knows the Light of the spirit within him" - Walter Russell

"The senses do not grasp reality in any way" Socrates

“All that I have tried to understand to the present time has been affected by my senses; now I know these senses are deceivers, and it is prudent to be distrustful after one has been deceived once.” René Descartes

 

 

[V-8]

On 12/22/2019 at 0:45 AM, Amandine said:

@V-8 I notice you don't have a "signature". Is this because you can't decide which one to pick, haha? 

What would be your absolute favorite one?

Genuinely curious. 

Thanks,...wasn't paying attention.  I'll check it out.   I'm totally new to this type of forum. 

[MAYA EL]

@V-8 I agree with much of what you say . However your confidence in your accomplishments in your spiritual life as well as your age may have become a blind spot for you do to what I call "well earned arrogance" . Also wisdom is knowledge from the past applied in the present to achieve a desired outcome in the future in other words of wisdom is knowing how to apply knowledge to get specific outcome and because of this it is usually associated with age however wisdom is not directly governed by age and in some instances it can be displayed in the youth while the elderly display complete ignorance.

[V-8]

11 minutes ago, MAYA EL said:

@V-8 I agree with much of what you say . However your confidence in your accomplishments in your spiritual life as well as your age may have become a blind spot for you do to what I call "well earned arrogance" .

arrogance, n.  an attitude of superiority often manifested by displays of superiority or self-importance; pride; haughtiness; the condescending Momma-bear.

Yes,...arrogance is quite rampant today,...so many people wrapped up in their "me stories" and personal truths.  

I've come upon arrogance, especially with older folks quit often,...on all the 6 lower substance levels. 

Wei Wu Wei got pride right when he said,  "humility is just a degree of pride."

First-tier thinkers adore the construct of humility.   

[Girzo]

@V-8 I have told you that there obviously are levels beyond Coral and you give me an essay on empiricism and science. How is that appropiate? Where have I reffered to science, logic, space or time? Nowhere, because I didn't.

There is Absolute Truth and Relative embodiment of it.

Spiral Dynamics is a model that operates in a relative domain and there you can always make progress, finer and finer distinctions or gain deeper insight. You may be the most awake being until you aren't, until there comes something bigger that you were not aware of before.

[MAYA EL]

@V-8 I can clearly see that you are a narcissist and that's ok many people are these days and so I will not take any offense to your attempted jab at me by implying that I am this "first-tier " kind of person.  And I understand that you are at the end of your years from the sounds of it and it that is in fact the case then that would mean that you have most likely developed a neurosis due to the amount of years you put into metaphysical studies and in an attempt to validate all your efforts you seek knowledgement and gratification as well as satisfaction of seeing others believe your metaphysical epistemology

 

and this is most likely at  a subconscious level because you don't want to passably acknowledge the fact that not only did you not leave a legacy but you don't know any more than but the next guy on the Block living life just to acknowledge being average is probably a very difficult thing to do so it's most likely repressed.

And what I mean when I say well earned arrogance is that carrigan's in itself is not necessarily a bad thing to have only when it's coupled with ignorance is it a bad thing and if you have indeed gone through a circumstance and in fact know the outcome then you have earned the right to be a little arrogant in what you state however you took what I said as a vegetarian Kumbaya kind of jab thinking that I'm saying you need to be humble about everything like a beta male that is definitely not the case.

Best of luck to you.

[LfcCharlie4]

@MAYA EL Exactly, that’s why I feel there’s no point to respond whatever I say, I’ll get an essay on why he’s better than me essentially ? 

 

@V-8 I’m done here. Enjoy your knowledge and superiority and being at SD8, I think I’ll go back to enjoying my peace and happiness and receiving BS transmissions that have helped me beyond words, but thank you for your concern. 

 

However, there are more ways to live life than you do, just because you decided to retire after waking up doesn’t mean everyone has to, just like everyone doesn’t have to become a monk or go live in an Ashram.

In fact everyone will want different things, but like I said the deepest awakenings show the ordinary becoming the extraordinary, that this very world is the Buddha Planet as it is.

Youre a funny guy. However it is strange a man of your age to be lurking around online forums, or have a need to and I hope I don’t have a need to prove my superiority and call people children and first tier thinkers, to me that’s an extremely sad existence. 

Whatever you do with yourself Christmas, or if having a family isn’t allowed once you reach SD100 that you seem to be at, have a merry christmas mate and try being happy and having fun instead of seeking more and more knowledge, you might like it