Friends Who Don't Understand Actualization?

[charlie2dogs]

1 minute ago, abrakamowse said:

But after enlightenment we can say we do have free will. We have no free will while we identify with the ego identity, right?

even after you become self realized, your window of free will is very limited in that once you achieve a state of liberation, any choices made will be made to maintain that state of liberation,  does that make sense

[charlie2dogs]

3 minutes ago, Atom said:

In a way i can yet not explain, Im starting to think there really isnt free will as Charlie says

then you are way out in front of the crowd

[abrakamowse]

1 minute ago, charlie2dogs said:

even after you become self realized, your window of free will is very limited in that once you achieve a state of liberation, any choices made will be made to maintain that state of liberation,  does that make sense

That's what I was thinking. Thanks for clarifying Charlie.

3 minutes ago, Atom said:

In a way i can yet not explain, Im starting to think there really isnt free will as Charlie says

@Atom I know we have no free will. And the free will we will have if we are enlightened (as I hope we all will be) it's not the kind of free will we think functioning as an ego-identity, or human being.
 

[abrakamowse]

@charlie2dogs  I ended in a mental hospital to understand that there's no free will and that our ego-identity is false / fake. It doesn't exist. I am beginning to understand that the key is no beliefs at all. I understand it conceptually, but I still need time to process it.

Edited June 9, 2016 by abrakamowse

[abrakamowse]

10 minutes ago, Atom said:

In a way i can yet not explain, Im starting to think there really isnt free will as Charlie says..

I mean there is but?

I dont know really?

As much as i thought i knew i really just dont know

Even from a scientific perspective, and applying logical thinking, free will doesn't exist.

Edited June 9, 2016 by abrakamowse

[charlie2dogs]

1 minute ago, abrakamowse said:

@charlie2dogs  I ended in a mental hospital to understand that there's no free will and that our ego-identity is false / fake. It doesn't exist. I am beginning to understand that the key is no beliefs at all. I understand it conceptually, but I still need time to process it.

as a self realized being you will drop all belief, and your programing wont stand in the way of you experiencing reality,  programing nor beliefs can enter the domain of the self realized.

[abrakamowse]

@charlie2dogs  thanks Charlie!

How will you define the difference between the two? Programming and beliefs?

[charlie2dogs]

Just now, abrakamowse said:

@charlie2dogs  thanks Charlie!

How will you define the difference between the two? Programming and beliefs?

programing is what you have allowed to take root in your consciousness from the outside wold, beliefs are formed from that programing by the identity and then the beliefs is also rooted within the consciousness creating a bigger prison to climb over if the awakening ever begins

[Saarah]

@charlie2dogs that looking at crimes and saying we should just punish the attacker as they're wrong is something related to moralising and we need to consider moralising as part of it 

when we simply punish criminals and engage our talk of how evil they are, we're demonising and not accepting reality, and demonising comes from moralising 

It's important to consider for anyone wishing to remove their victimisation and hence their suffering 

[abrakamowse]

1 minute ago, charlie2dogs said:

programing is what you have allowed to take root in your consciousness from the outside wold, beliefs are formed from that programing by the identity and then the beliefs is also rooted within the consciousness creating a bigger prison to climb over if the awakening ever begins

I got you, thanks again!!!

[Atom]

@charlie2dogs i dont know if its a compliment but you are "far out" bud.. as well 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Atom
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[abrakamowse]

@Atom did you watch Sam Harris videos about free will?

[charlie2dogs]

3 minutes ago, Saarah said:

@charlie2dogs that looking at crimes and saying we should just punish the attacker as they're wrong is something related to moralising and we need to consider moralising as part of it 

when we simply punish criminals and engage our talk of how evil they are, we're demonising and not accepting reality, and demonising comes from moralising 

It's important to consider for anyone wishing to remove their victimisation and hence their suffering 

my point had nothing to do with, hate, judgment, punishment, it has to do with viewing the criminal as a victim and labeling the examination of the pain and suffering and horror he created with his crime as moralizing him.

[Atom]

9 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

@Atom did you watch Sam Harris videos about free will?

No i have not.. To be honest i haven't watched much, nor am i educated scholastically.. I am "self" lol.. taught

Edited June 9, 2016 by Atom
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[abrakamowse]

His explanations about free will are very interesting and pretty easy to understand.

 

 

[abrakamowse]

4 minutes ago, Atom said:

I am "self" lol.. taught

That's great! I wanna be "that" too

[Mal]

5 hours ago, charlie2dogs said:

so far in all the text here no one has voiced any thing about the real victim, the one that was raped and the trauma and possibly the lasting effects of that on that person, , but rather its about the rapist being the victim of society instead and how we should not be moralizing the rapist.   

 

On 6/8/2016 at 1:50 AM, Mal said:

 I feel it's an appropriate time to point out here that highly developed people (Post-conventional/pluralistic) will feel for both the victim and the rapist - because they are both victims of a larger social problem. 

Charlie, it looks to me as if you are not actually interested in seeing reality.

Misanthropy or just woeful editing, perhaps?

Respectfully

-Mal

Edited June 9, 2016 by Mal

[Atom]

20 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

That's great! I wanna be "that" too

I wish you well on your journey.. Ill tell you, always ask yourself "what if" and ponder on it.. Thats something i've done all my life.. 

 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Atom
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[Mal]

1 hour ago, charlie2dogs said:

this thing about free will, it has never existed and wont exist for this world.  Anyone who has been programed all their life and longer and have formed a belief system,  is not exercising free will, any choices made by them are made by the programing and belief. the human identity has never seen nor touched reality, so how can the human identity exercise free will.

 

1 hour ago, charlie2dogs said:

my point had nothing to do with, hate, judgment, punishment, it has to do with viewing the criminal as a victim and labeling the examination of the pain and suffering and horror he created with his crime as moralizing him.

 

5 hours ago, charlie2dogs said:

 

I am well aware that rapist are unconscious functioning human beings,  they are part of the 99.9% of the mass of population that is functioning unconscious, most of which do not commit as serious crimes as some.  Having said that we are here in this physical world, that requires some measure of responsibility for your actions and some have to be restrained and even punished for what they do and  when humans commit horrible crimes against other humans such as the rape of women and children and worse.  when consequences are created, it should be seen as consequences, not dressed up to look like something else.

Charlie, 

I'm missing something.

Can you explain the incongruity in your statements, please?  If there is no free will, then the criminal is not personally culpable and is indeed part of a larger social problem.  

And nobody mentioned (until you did) that a criminal should not be punished or restrained,  we are talking about the phenomena of empathy for all parties involved.

Mal

Edited June 9, 2016 by Mal

[abrakamowse]

33 minutes ago, Atom said:

I wish you well on your journey.. Ill tell you, always ask yourself "what if" and ponder on it.. Thats something i've done all my life.. 

 

That's really awesome Atom! I wish you well too!!!