Trump just got impeached !

[John Doe]

@Preety_India  Tulsi Gabbard is not Indian, she's of American-Samoan descent.

https://www.deccanherald.com/international/world-news-politics/fact-check-is-tulsi-gabbard-of-indian-origin-763866.html

[Preety_India]

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

@Preety_India  Tulsi Gabbard is not Indian, she's of American-Samoan descent.

https://www.deccanherald.com/international/world-news-politics/fact-check-is-tulsi-gabbard-of-indian-origin-763866.html

She is a mixed Indian. A lot of Polynesians have Indian origins. Also I just mentioned her as indian, not that her race matters at all. 

 

[Bno]

For people who suffer from Trump Derangement Syndrome and forget about focusing on the real issues that matter to the American people like healthcare, education, and climate change, this impeachment is myopic and counterproductive.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Bno

[Apparition of Jack]

@Bno Impeachment is hurting Trump. A major evangelical newspaper just came out retracting support for Trump because him being impeached highlighted his corrupt behaviour to them. He's feeling the heat.

[Bno]

@Apparition of Jack You're judging this based on one opinion piece article while ignoring all other facts like how not a single Republican in congress voted against it (even the supposive "never Trumpers"), his approval ratings not going down, and all the other points I've made in prior posts. The simple fact that Pelosi is blocking the articles from the senate can be used by Trump to say he's a victim of another witch hunt. The last video I shared goes into detail about how support for impeachment among all political parties dropped after all evidence was introduced. Check to see if your biases are blinding you.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Bno

[Leo Gura]

@Bno You are making a mockery of the notion of bias.

What you're doing in this sub-forum is unconsciously spouting off your self-biased perspective. Notice that.

[Bno]

@Leo Gura My unconscious perspective which is noticing the ultimate consequences of this impeachment which is that it's benefiting Trump and hurting the Democrats? What am I being biased towards? This is objectively what is happening, Leo.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Bno

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Bno said:

This is objectively what is happening

The belief that a one’s perspective is objectively true is itself a self bias. 

These are chains that contract into a perspective and limit exploration, growth and expansion. . . Yet it can be transcended. 

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv It's an objective fact that the approval for impeachment among all US parties went down after all evidence was presented, no Republicans in congress voted for impeachment, Nancy Pelosi is blocking the articles from reaching the senate, and Trump's approval ratings aren't going down. So this isn't helping democrats and it isn't hurting Trump.

Now here is my subjective speculation: Trump's approval ratings also went up after the Mueller Report, so it's likely that they we'll see a similar trend happen as this impeachment process proceeds since a lot of evidence of Trump committing a crime in this instance is lacking, there's evidence showing Joe Biden and the Obama administration abusing their power to restrict military aid to Ukraine so that they can get a lawyer to stop investigating Hunter Biden's energy company, and the majority of the senate is Republican.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Bno

[Forestluv]

@Bno The point isn’t about the content of your view, it is the structure. 

If I say “My perspective is objectively true”, I will perceive all other views as being objectively false and reject them. This is biased perception through a personal filter. It is extremely contracted and limited. It allows no curiosity, space and openness to explore, grow and expand. 

One will miss out on a lot with such a mindset. 

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv I acknowledge that there is a possibility that my subjective speculation can be wrong. What I said was objective was the observations that I listed about what has transpired and is transpiring, which again is that Trump's approval ratings aren't going down, support for impeachment has gone down after more evidence was presented, and Pelosi is withholding the articles from the senate.

[Forestluv]

@Bno It’s not just about being right or wrong. It’s being open to explore without judging everything as right or wrong. . . For example, I think you could explore and grow a lot regarding how criminal minds work. I’ve spent a lot of time exploring this area and you are missing a lot, imo. Yet when I mentioned something about the dynamics of criminal minds, you weren’t open to exploring it because it didn’t fit with your pre-conceived view. My sense is that you saw this view as a threat to the Russia-gate narrative and you went into debate mode to protect a pre-conceived view. This is a biased filter. A lot of insights and nuances will be missed. 

Personally, I want to be curious and have the freedom to explore without the restriction of a particular lens. 

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv I remremember saying I'm open to hearing about it. I still am.

[Forestluv]

@Bno Mafia leaders, mobsters and serial killers et al. have a different mindset than “normal” people and they communicate differently. I don’t think you are considering this with your “Russia-gate” narrative. You are looking for a particular type of evidence from a rational non-criminal mindset and will miss a lot. For example, Putin has leverage on Trump. When a powerful mafia leader / dictator has leverage on a weaker person, they can manipulate that person without incriminating themselves. This is part of what you are missing, imo. You are looking for incriminating evidence, without considering how a dictator with leverage operates to protect themself from incriminating evidence. 

These guys are not low level crooks that walk into a liquor store with a gun and get caught on video saying “Gimme all your money”.  

It’s more like a kidnapper who has mentally manipulated his victim such that they can go out in public together and she will obey. After 10 years of abuse, she is finally discovered and the general public is dumbfounded as they ask “why didn’t she just ask for help or run away? They were out in public with police officers nearby. Maybe she wanted to be with him.”. . . They don’t understand how twisted, demented minds work. Putin has one of those minds. Yet you are expecting a criminal to behave in a certain way based on a rational, non-criminal mindset . . .

I wouldn’t go so far to say Putin is Trump’s puppet master, yet he has leverage and knows how to pull a few string here and there, without incriminating himself. 

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv I see what you're saying. You're proposing that Putin and his goons are so criminally organized that they were able to get away with interfering in our election while hiding evidence. And Trump has to do their bidding because they have leverage on him. I have some questions about that:

 In the end isn't this just speculation though? And even if Russia and/or Putin did get away with hiding evidence, associating Trump with them has shown that it increases Trump's approval ratings. Wouldn't it be more productive to stick to more important issues that can actually hurt him rather than focusing on something that lacks substantial evidence and isn't hurting him even after years of investigation? 

If they have leverage over Trump, why has he acted out against Putin's geopolitical interests more often than not?

And if they have the ability to kill or expose Trump if he doesn't do their bidding, how could Putin's minions infiltrate the secret service, CIA, and the FBI to get to him? How come they didn't do this when Trump acted out against them multiple times?

Why has Trump, who is so bad and incompetent at keeping secrets, not leaked any information about this?

Edited December 23, 2019 by Bno

[Forestluv]

48 minutes ago, Bno said:

@Serotoninluv I see what you're saying. You're proposing that Putin and his goons are so criminally organized that they were able to get away with interfering in our election while hiding evidence. And Trump has to do their bidding because they have leverage on him. I have some questions about that:

 In the end isn't this just speculation though? And even if Russia and/or Putin did get away with hiding evidence, associating Trump with them has shown that it increases Trump's approval ratings.

I would recontextualize “evidence” and game theory.

Imagine a mafia leader has video of the mayor of Medellin Colombia molesting a child. The mafia leader is the only one with the video and the mayor knows the mafia guy has it. The mafia leader has leverage over the mayor. Now imagine the mafia leader’s nephew gets arrested. Since the mafia leader has leverage over the mayor he can manipulate the mayor without obvious “evidence”. The mafia leader probably won’t need to do anything. The mayor knows the kid is related to the mafia leader and will instinctively try to release the nephew from arrest, without anyone knowing why. Zero evidence. There wasn’t even any communication. Or if the mayor needs nudging, all the mafia leader has to do is have one of his goons refer to the nephew with something like “we all make mistakes in our life”. This appears totally benign to the average person, yet the mayor will know EXACTLY what is meant and he will try to release the nephew from jail. Again, zero evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the mafia leader. He doesn’t need to call the mayor and say “Hey, remember that I have video of you molesting a child. If you don’t release my nephew from jail, I will release the video to the authorities”. That’s not how it works. The mafia leader doesn’t need to incriminate himself.

There are different degrees of leverage and how far it can utilized. The mafia leader won’t get everything he wants out of the mayor and the mafia leader won’t push his leverage so far that the mayor becomes exposed and loses power - because the mafia leader would lose his pawn and an aspect of his power. For example, if the mayor had already released the mafia leader’s son from prison and given the mafia leader control over laundromats in the city - trying to also release the nephew may be too much too soon. The nephew may have to sit in prison for a little while. If the Mayor gets busted and loses his power, it is a loss for the mafia leader, especially if the mafia leader doesn’t have leverage over the new major. As well, if the mafia leader pushes it too far, it will draw too much attention toward himself. If there are authorities that can damage the mafia leader, the mafia leader will not want to draw their attention.

You are looking for post-leverage evidence from a rational mindset. Look prior to that. Ask yourself if Putin has leverage Trump. That is the game changer. Putin has personal leverage on Trump. Putin has no personal leverage on Bernie Sanders. If you can’t see this, I’m not sure how to reveal it. . . . As well, there is plenty of evidence of Putin/Russia utilizing their leverage, yet it doesn’t count as “evidence” to the filter you are using. Every US intelligence agency, US security official and US diplomat to Russia have concluded there is overwhelming evidence of Russian interference and manipulation. There is 100% consensus. Even Mueller said the Russian interference is continuing today. Yet you keep assuming and insisting there no evidence - which you need to do to maintain a particular narrative. Nearly every point you make has an underlying assumption that there is no evidence. Notice how you assumed above that Russia must “have hidden evidence”. You would need to put that narrative aside for a bit to explore and expand.

[EddieEddie1995]

@Bno @Serotoninluv Keep it coming guys, this is getting really interesting hehehehhe

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv I'm insisting that hyperfosuing on this issue is not hurting Trump (it's even actually increasing his approval ratings) and damaging the progressive movement.

Are you talking about the supposive pee tapes of Trump and a prostitute? Because that was debunked. And again, even if they had other types of leverage on Trump, which is true that this kind of evidence would be hard to expose, why has he acted out against Putin's geopolitical interest?

Edited December 23, 2019 by Bno

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Bno said:

@Serotoninluv 

Are you talking about the supposive pee tapes of Trump and a prostitute? 

No. You missed the whole point of the analogy ?

[Forestluv]

 

16 minutes ago, Bno said:

@Serotoninluv And again, even if they had other types of leverage on Trump, which is true evidence would be hard to expose, why has he acted out against Putin's geopolitical interest?

If you can’t see there is Putin/Russian leverage on Trump, we can’t have a conversation about the leverage. Which is fine. I’ve got other things to do tonight.

I think the best contrast is looking at the relationship Trump and Bernie Sanders have to Putin/Russia. One of them is compromised, the other is not. 

As well, having leverage does NOT mean 100% submissive servitude as a puppet. It is not a 100% binary thing. It is more nuanced than that. 

It’s just a different pov that I think could help expand. Yet it doesn’t seem to resonate with you, which is fine.