Trump just got impeached !

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv Haha well either way, even if your theory were true, as the current circumstances stand, focusing on this issue isn't hurting Trump for the reasons I keep explaining. 

Maybe you're seeing something I'm not. Here's what I see:

Hillary ran a horrible campaign and didn't campaign in important states she needed to win (Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, etc.)

Trump pulled out of the Iran nuclear treaty, which is against Putin's interest. We also almost went to war with Iran twice.

Trump staged a coup in Venezuela, also something Putin didn't want

Trump is bombing Syria, Putin's ally country

Trump is pushing for a pipeline through Syria and into Europe so that those countries can have more access to Saudi Arabia oil over Russia's

Trump successfully implemented a coup in Bolivia, which Putin also didn't want

Trump is implementing harsher sanctions on Russia than the previous administration implemented

Are there some things Trump has done that you've noticed show that they have leverage on him that I've missed?

Edited December 23, 2019 by Bno

[Bno]

@EddieEddie1995 Lol! I hope you learn a couple of things.

[Forestluv]

@Bno You seem to like your narrative. This is what I wrote earlier about filters. I wrote that I had previously mentioned criminal minds and how you were not open to it and dismissed it to protect a pre-conceived narrative. You then said you were open and interested. Yet look at your response here. It’s exactly as I said earlier. You are immersed in a narrative that you see as being objectively true and you protect that narrative. There is nothing wrong with that, yet it is contracted and prevents growth and expansion. 

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv I'm just pointing out flaws with your narrative and acknowledged that I might be missing something, like Trump probably committed more actions that favor Putin over the actions I listed that go against Putin's interests. Has he? 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Bno

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, Bno said:

@Serotoninluv I acknowledged that I might be missing something, like Trump probably committed more actions that favor Putin over the actions I listed that go against Putin's interests.

I didn’t see that acknowledgment, yet it would be a crack to open the door.

Rather than seek expressions of the leverage, I would focus on the source of the leverage. 

For example, I think we would both agree that Trump is more compromised by Putin/Russia than Bernie Sanders. Why might Trump be more compromised than Sanders? . . . That would be a start to break the binary construct of 100% compromised vs 0% compromised.

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv What has Trump done to show that Russia has leverage on him?

[Forestluv]

@Bno You don’t seem oriented toward genuinely asking questions to explore and expand. You seem oriented toward debating and protecting a pre-conceived perspective. Notice your desire to engage in the content and debate that content. Imo, none of the questions you’ve asked me have been asked with genuine curiosity to explore, learn and expand. It seems like you already have the answer to your questions and respond by going into debate mode to defend your position. This is the biased perspective that was pointed to earlier.

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv I honestly want to learn what Trump has done to make you think Russia and Putin has leverage on him. I was not asking in the form of engaging in a debate, I am just presenting what I know and would like to know what you know so that I can grow.

[Forestluv]

@Bno
I already fell for that once tonight. Have a good night ?? 

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv If you want to teach someone something, expect to be met with questions. You answered my question about your interpretation of how the criminal mind works, thank you, now I'm asking you how that concept is being used in this issue with Trump and Putin. What actions has Trump committed to show they have leverage on him?

Edited December 23, 2019 by Bno

[Forestluv]

@Bno As I said, it is not the questions. It is the orientation underlying the questions. To me, you are not asking questions with a genuine curiosity to mutually explore, learn and expand. These questions have a certain type of openness and flow in which there is no ownership of ideas. Constructs get deconstructed, explored and reconstructed. It’s a certain type of energetics. Yet to me, that’s not what’s happening here. You seem to be oriented toward a particular view and keep returning to that view to maintain that construct. There is a right vs. wrong framework. For me, this isn’t an environment for fruitful conversations. These are just my impressions, other people are oriented differently.

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv I am having genuine curiosity. Forgive me if it doesn't seem like it. I'm still getting used to conversing with people with this level of consciousness as opposed to conversations in other mediums.

[StephenK]

@Serotoninluv @Bno I'm enjoying the conversation between you two, but I'd like to offer my two cents. @Serotoninluv You seem to be doing a lot of redirecting of direct questions into your own conceptual frameworks. You've also argued for a narrative that is unfalsifiable which is naturally going to lead to a stagnation in the discussion. Are you wrong? Are you right? I don't know, but you definitely have your own narrative style -- as do we all.

[Forestluv]

 

26 minutes ago, StephenK said:

. @Serotoninluv You’ve also argued for a narrative that is unfalsifiable which is naturally going to lead to a stagnation in the discussion. 

This applies to a certain type of discussion. As you suggest, argumentation of narratives toward true or false binary outcomes. Yet that’s not how my mind works and not what I move toward. I suck in these types of conversations and don’t enjoy them. 

There are other types of conversation that do not involve argumentation. They are about mutual exploration, discovery and creation - these are the conversations I enjoy and excel at.  I made a misjudgment here and shouldn’t have gotten involved to the extent I did. 

 

[Average Investor]

@Bno 

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but was watching this and thought of this conversation. Don't just appeal to authority here though either. I am guilty of the same thing, actually everyone is. Just continue to open up to exploring and recontextualization. 

[Arcangelo]

Check out this summary

''20 republicans will have to support his removal''

That will never happen, and everybody knows that.

I mean you gotta be on wishful thinking steroids to think that 20 reps. are gonna support this.

Hang in there guys, it's only 4 more years...

 

 

Arc

[whoareyou]

8 hours ago, Bno said:

@Serotoninluv I honestly want to learn what Trump has done to make you think Russia and Putin has leverage on him. 

@Serotoninluv I would like to know the answer as well or at least what makes you think so. I am afraid that you are purely speculating though and are running away from answering this question.

 

9 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Bno You seem to like your narrative. This is what I wrote earlier about filters. You are immersed in a narrative that you see as being objectively true and you protect that narrative. There is nothing wrong with that, yet it is contracted and prevents growth and expansion. 

The same exact same thing can be said about yourself - your are immersed in a narrative that Trump was compromised by Russia  and seem to be protective of it.

[Forestluv]

4 hours ago, whoareyou said:

@Serotoninluv The same exact same thing can be said about yourself - your are immersed in a narrative that Trump was compromised by Russia  and seem to be protective of it.

You’ve got part of it. Yet, it’s not about any one perspective, it’s about attachment/identification to a particular perspective. This is an underlying source of biased perspective, which was the original starting point .On the SD scale, this is a difference between Orang and Yellow.

Focusing on the leverage point also provides grounding for the framework of “me” vs “you” and “right” vs “wrong”.  . . “Ah ha! Look! This serotoninluv guy can’t even defend his position about Trump leverage! He keeps evading the question!!”. . .

It’s not a question of wether the perspective is biased (all perspectives are). Rather, it is a question of wether there is a construct of “me” taking ownership of that perspective and the level of attachment/identification. This realization and embodiment is a key feature of Yellow. 

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv I have genuine curiosity about what makes you think Putin has leverage on Trump. With the answer you give I can't say objectively whether you are right or wrong, but we can speculate on what is most likely to be true. We are both theorizing here. 

My theory is based on evidence of Trump acting out against Putin's interests.

Your theory is based on how the criminal mind works (but you have yet to explain what makes you think Putin has leverage on Trump).

We can't say for sure who is objectively right, but one can say which is most likely to be true.

But this is besides the point I try to make on these forums. My point about Russia and Trump speculations is that it doesn't work in hurting Trump because...

1) people like myself see more evidence that goes against this notion that he's been infiltrated than evidence that is for this notion, 

2) as it currently stands, it isn't affecting anyone's lives directly, and

3) we've seen his approval ratings go up immediately post-Mueller Report and even before that when the MSM wouldn't stop talking about it.

Originally why I began talking about this issue on here was to let @Leo Gura know that he was unconsciously helping Trump by repeating misinformation he heard about collusion and Russian election interference. If we want to fix the problems of this country we need to realize that Trump is not the problem and US corruption did not start on Jan 2017 nor did it get exponentially worse. What Trump is is a symptom of a much larger systemic problem that needs to be focused on more than these distractions like Russiagate, which is entirely ineffective at solving the root problems. 

Focusing on Russigate over the actual systemic issues is unconscious politics.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Bno

[Bno]

How about I move the conversation for everyone reading to a more systemic focus: what are some of the issues that are trying to prevent progressive change from happening in this country?

I'd say it's money in politics corrupting both parties. Both Democrats (except Bernie and a new small wave of others) and Republicans receive money from the same rich people who are calling all the shots. These corporatist politicians goals are to keep enriching themselves in this system, which is why corporate Democrats never implement economically progressive changes that aren't just tweaks around the edges.

They have also repeatedly shown to work harder at stopping progressives from winning primaries than they do at stopping Republicans from winning. They even vote for legislature Republicans propose like increasing the military budget, bombing countries, tax cuts to the rich, fracking and fossil fuel expansion and increasing government spying powers. Republicans hardly ever compromise for progressive policies. Corporate Democrats would rather lose to a Republican than win with a progressive because a progressive would make actual change that would prevent them from continuing to enrich themselves.

Who suffers in the end? We do as our insurance and student debts grow, prices raise, wages stay stagnant, pollution proceeds, and our food gets more contaminated with pollutants which then gives us autoimmune diseases. How can we invest and how can we work on Self-Actualization in this way?

Edited December 23, 2019 by Bno