Is meditation useless?

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Nak Khid said:

Did you read Maslow's : The Farther Reaches of Human Nature which is quoted in that thread? What to you think of this  later Transcendence stage he added?

It's child's play once you reach God-consciousness.

There are things which no human can communicate to you. That's when things get serious.

2 hours ago, joeyi99 said:

@Leo Gura Is Sadguru a bodhisattva?

Sure, why not?

[joeyi99]

@Leo Gura Well the way you kinda made it sound was he was more focused on building his organization than focusing on the individual 

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, joeyi99 said:

@Leo Gura Well the way you kinda made it sound was he was more focused on building his organization than focusing on the individual

And what did the Buddha do? What did Christ do? What did Muhammad do? What did Moses do? What did Joseph Smith do? What did Yogananda do? What did Sun Myung Moon do?

Bodhisattvas build large movements which later become dogmatic religions and perpetuate ignorance through collective ego.

This story has been played out since the dawn of human civilization.

No one is to blame for this. It's inevitable given how consciousness works. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

[remember]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

And what did the Buddha do? What did Christ do? What did Muhammad do? What did Moses do? What did Joseph Smith do? What did Yogananda do? What did Sun Myung Moon do?

Bodhisattvas build large movements which later become dogmatic religions and perpetuate ignorance through collective ego.

This story has been played out since the dawn of human civilization.

No one is to blame for this. It's inevitable given how consciousness works. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

yes and what did l.ron hubbard do?

[LfcCharlie4]

Different tools work for different people, Psyches give great insights clearly, but plenty before have got there without them, Leo is the first real proponent of them in this current community, T McKenna obvs was back in the day, but he only reached early awakenings, and Alan Watts has the famous slogan on them. 

If you feel meditation, Self-Inquiry, Yoga, working with a teacher is better for you then do that. 

If you feel psyches are better than do that (please be careful with the substances though, so much inconsiderate use of substances) 

Or, if you want to utilize both do that, Leo's school is based on Psyches for better or for worse and he's got his insights and deepest awakenings from them, while many may not agree this is the best approach, it's his approach and he's going to of course teach his approach, I for one am interested to see where it takes him as I am not a Psyches user really bar several experiences, from watching so far it seems Leo has INCREDIBLY deep insights and glimpses, but it's the integration that is the challenge as it is for all of us. 

 Meditation is an awesome foundational practice and should be practiced everyday really, especially for certain Enneagram types, but many TM meditators meditate for 50 years and don't get awakened etc, so it isn't a guarantee, many who meditate still won't have much idea what Non-Duality even is, but that doesn't mean meditation, Yoga, Self-Inquiry isn't still awesome. 

But, as others have said meditation becomes an effortless 24/7 practice post-awakening as The Self has come forward to the foreground of your life and the unbreakable silence has been realized, but effort is required until it is no longer needed. 

You'll know within yourself what is the best path for you, and you should follow that guidance system, not everyone wants the Psyches path just like not everyone wants to work 1-1 with a teacher, find what works for you and as Leo said have the motivation to follow through as this path can be extremely hard at times, especially at the beginning and it will be easy to throw in the towel, but it is certainly MORE than worth it in the long run, life becomes fucking amazing beyond words, and thinking back personally to how my moment to moment experience was is unbelievably different. 

[dvdas]

Om Swami

[Thewritersunion]

@dvdas whom?

[WelcometoReality]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But the biggest thing is, most people will never even attempt to awaken or know about awakening otherwise, unless they are lucky enough to stumble upon it.

Yeah and even when they do know most will not do it. Few are willing to let go of themselves that much.

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A big secret to successful awakening is have the right motivation, curiosity, and desire for it. That in itself is a very rare thing which already requires a certain degree of spiritual attunement. If you motivation is strong, the rest is just a matter of time. If you motivation is weak, almost nothing can help you. So getting your motivation straight is crucial. Which is where psychedelics can be especially helpful. People would be a lot more motivated to awaken if they had a direct experience of God or Infinite Consciousness. It's very hard to build motivation off hearsay and fairytales. It's crucial to experience God for yourself so you know that it is more real than a brick wall. It's very hard to be motivated to pursue a thing for years which you doubt is real.

I believe that is the most important thing aswell. Curiosity, openmindedness and motivation. It even feels like something deeper than motivation because if it's a goal in a future it's going to be hard to achieve. A love for truth perhaps.

It's a little bit like playing an instrument. If you practice scales just to become a good instrumentalist in the future it's gonna be hard work. But if you enjoy the playing the scales and play just because you love playing it's going to be effortless. No matter if you had a goal of becoming good or not it will be achieved.

 

 

[V-8]

13 hours ago, Nak Khid said:

@V-8

1) What level do you think you are on here?

2) Also what do you see as the best method of ascending these levels?   What is the best way to do it?   Psychotherapy?   Psychedelics? 
Or just seeing it as a philosophical system or set of principle one can then just follow rather than see it as more psychologically oriented?
Or is the best way by joining a Spiral Dynamics organization where there is a group dynamic?

3) I don't advocate meditation for everybody, just if you want to do it.
But what is your experience with it?  How much have you done?  Did it bore you?
Have you ever done 20 minutes or an hour?   If so how many times?

4) Do you think forms of stoic contemplation or other contemplation are useful or to similar to meditation?

5)  You quote a lot.  How primary are books to your growth?

6)  Do you see Spiral Dynamics as unique or just a good organization of classical ideas and wisdom traditions?

7)  Do you prefer radical transformation or gradual?   What is the most reliable method of radical transformation?

8)  Did you see this

 

 

Whoa!   Transcendence is not in the Pyramid of Needs.

The "best method" for realization is Unfeigned Surrender,...which doesn't mean let go and let god.

"You abandon completely all belief; you abandon every sort of way of hanging onto life.  You accept your complete impermanence; the prospect of your death of vanishing into nothing whatsoever, you see, and of not being able to control anything, of being at the mercy of what is completely other than you, and you let go of that, you see, this means that you even get rid of any God whatsoever, to do it fully. You don't have a thing left to cling to."  Alan watts

Or as McKenna said, ,..."Go jump off a cliff. Don’t go near the cliff and contemplate jumping off. Don’t read a book about jumping off. Don’t study the art and science of jumping off. Don’t join a support group for jumping off. Don’t write poems about jumping off. Don't cling to a parachute as you jump off. Don't let people tell you it takes 10 years of training to jump off. Don’t kiss the ass of someone else who jumped off. Just jump."

 

I've not heard of an Awakened Being advocate meditation.  (Buddha, Tilopa, Lao-Tzu, Hui Neng, Saraha, Wei Wu Wei, etc.)

Meditation is however, an excellent way for teachers to find financial support,...with promises of awakening that will never arrive. 

In Buddhism, the Long Paths of Theravada/Hinayana and Mahayana are into meditation,...they believe that meditation will help one to get into a better place for Awakening in future lifetimes.  The Short Path, Awakening in a single lifetime is about Non-Mediation.  Non-Meditation begins in the Heart,...not the heart pump,...but the Heart Center, associated with the thymus,...gnowing, not knowing. 

Books are not very primary to my uncovering.  But I'll often come upon a quote after an experience.  I like using quotes,...my last book is a Collage of quotes for the Integration of the Feminine.  The Feminine of duality is not a gender of Form, but the Wave of a Particle.

 

I view Spiral Dynamics as a very help tool to identify your current level of Conscious Awareness,...AND a model that shows the extent of Human Potential. 

"We have to learn to know what rhythm we're in, how to ride with it, how to shift; to sense what rhythm others are in,  and how the different rhythms are complementary or discordant" - Gabrielle Roth.

 "What Rhythm are you in?"  Jonathan Horan

"Everything in the universe has a rhythm; everything dances"  Maya Angelou

"Where are you on the potentially endless wave of human evolution?"  Ken Wilbur

 

I first read Maslow in college in the 70's.  Loved it. 

Was blown away in the 80's when Joseph Campbell said he had one Peak experience,...knowing he was going to win a school track-n-field event.  At that time I already had more than a thousand, not counting knowing where a parking spot would be.  However, as I not met Campbell, nor seen any of his personal communications, wouldn't guess as to Spiral Dynamic level,...although would imagine at least a High Functioning Green. 

I did however observe the psuedo Buddhist Thich Nhat Hanh, who grew a business giving Westerners what they want, and am quite sure he is a High Functioning Green.  The 4 books of his that I forced myself to review showed no level of competence in regards to love, compassion, emptiness, nor any understanding of Christainity or Buddhism which he continually attempts to merge for his faith-based Western supporters.

 

There are MANY Caterpillars teaching Caterpillars to be Butterflies today. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Inliytened1]

18 hours ago, V-8 said:

 

I've not heard of an Awakened Being advocate meditation.  (Buddha, Tilopa, Lao-Tzu, Hui Neng, Saraha, Wei Wu Wei, etc.)

You know not what you speak.  You are confusing what you have heard (concept) for actuality - and that is dogma.  

 it is clear from this, and the time you spend quoting others, that you still have a long way to go for your own awakening.

You can realize one day that you no longer need to quote others because there will be no others.

 

[silene]

@V-8 "I've not heard of an Awakened Being advocate meditation.  (Buddha, Tilopa, Lao-Tzu, Hui Neng, Saraha, Wei Wu Wei, etc.)" 

In a literal sense of course, we've little idea what some of these spiritual teachers from the ancient world actually said, even if they did actually exist. But in the case of  Buddhism, there are meditation instructions in the Pali Canon (early Buddhist scriptures) for mindfulness of breathing meditation (Anapanasati Sutta)  and insight meditation (Satipatthana Sutta). And I've only read a handful of Suttas so there may be more. 

@LfcCharlie4  "You'll know within yourself what is the best path for you, and you should follow that guidance system, " 

Speaking for myself only, my spiritual journey has been winding and disjointed, several times what I thought at the time was the best path turned out to be sub-optimal although not without merit for me. Insight and intuition are very similar if not the same quality imo, and a skill which spirituality is trying to develop in us. So, it seems like that as an unskilled young newbie, I was in a catch 22 of lacking enough intuition to know the best path for me to learn intuition But over many years I've gradually got somewhere. Looks like I'm on the gradual path rather than sudden! It's ok, I've no regrets, I'd probably do it all over again from the same starting point. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by silene

[Nak Khid]

.

4 hours ago, V-8 said:

 

I view Spiral Dynamics as a very help tool to identify your current level of Conscious Awareness,...AND a model that shows the extent of Human Potential. 

Quote

Nak Khid said:

1) What level do you think you are on here?

would imagine at least a High Functioning Green. 

I've not heard of an Awakened Being advocate meditation.  (Buddha, Tilopa, Lao-Tzu, Hui Neng, Saraha, Wei Wu Wei, etc.)

Meditation is however, an excellent way for teachers to find financial support,...with promises of awakening that will never arrive. ...

I did however observe the psuedo Buddhist Thich Nhat Hanh, who grew a business giving Westerners what they want, and am quite sure he is a High Functioning Green.  The 4 books of his that I forced myself to review showed no level of competence in regards to love, compassion, emptiness, nor any understanding of Christainity or Buddhism which he continually attempts to merge for his faith-based Western supporters.

There are MANY Caterpillars teaching Caterpillars to be Butterflies today. 

I appreciate your honesty estimating yourself at high functioning green

However if so would that qualify you to judge meditation?  Awakening is in the blue section. Would this not back you a caterpillar?

In the oldest texts of Buddhism,  jhāna is the training of the mind, commonly translated as meditation

Quote

Buddha:

“Having gone on his almsround, the sage should then go to the forest, standing or taking a seat at the foot of a tree. The enlightened one, intent on jhana, should find delight in the forest, should practice jhana at the foot of a tree, attaining his own satisfaction.”

 

Quote

Buddha:

“Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don’t be heedless.”

 

 

Quote

Buddha:

“Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don’t be heedless.”

.

Quote

Buddha:

18. "What can be done for his disciples by a Master who seeks their welfare and has compassion and pity on them, that I have done for you, Cunda.There are these roots of trees, there are empty places. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay, lest you later regret it. 'This is my message to you."

 

 

[LfcCharlie4]

@V-8  Can you not see how you're just on the opposite end compared to seeing Meditation as the best thing ever, you have made it out to be terrible, and disregard the clear benefits it has on many. 

While I don't believe alone it is the best path to awakening, it is clear it has a great magnitude for many not just those on the path in regards to an array of issues in one's life, and especially for certain Enneagram types (such as 7s like myself) it can be extremely beneficial pre and post-awakening for helping with a range of issues.  

 Why not like at things from a more nuanced standpoint? 

Yes meditation may not be the optimum path to awakening and alone is unlikely to awaken many, no this does not mean meditation is useless and is in fact extremely beneficial for many people. 

I don't see why we need to be dogmatic about everything lol, certain meditations suit certain people, hence the wide variety of meditations. 

If meditation doesn't work for you, that's cool there's plenty of other tools around, but it works for many people in different ways so I think it's a bit reductionist to state meditation is useless, especially to newbies on the path. 

Post-Awakening life is like a 24/7 meditation in terms of non-resistance to the now, allowing the flow of thoughts and feelings etc and I feel for you if you haven't experienced that. 

I do agree simple meditations such as 'witnessing' need to be made deeper, these are great introductions, but meditation goes way deeper, my personal favortie is Pure Awareness meditation or Resting in the absolute (which is also the aim of Self-Inquiry btw) when meditation is taught in Non-Duality it 'aims' to help you notice that unbreakable silence, notice The Self that encompasses all, and in my experience is a very helpful tool for daily practice for me and for many others  

Oh and your ridiculous claim that awakened beings don't advocate meditation here's some articles from the greatest sages and their recommendations: 

https://ramana-maharshi.weebly.com/meditation.html

https://o-meditation.com/2010/02/16/focused-i-am-meditation-nisargadatta-maharaj/

https://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/meditation_is_simply_to_be_

http://www.awakin.org/read/view.php?tid=960

And since you love quotes here's some from some masters of our time, even though no awakened being has ever advocated meditation of course! 

Rupert-  “Meditation is simply to be. It is what we are, not what we do” Meditation starts with an investigative quality. In time the investigation aspect gives way in favour of a more contemplative attitude which, as the objects of contemplation are slowly relieved of their ‘objectness’ and ‘otherness,’ is revealed as a simple abidance as the Knowing Presence that we are, in which and as which all things appear.

Adyashanti- True meditation has no direction or goal. It is pure wordless surrender, pure silent prayer. All methods aiming at achieving a certain state of mind are limited, impermanent, and conditioned. Fascination with states leads only to bondage and dependency. True meditation is abidance as primordial awareness. (This is why I worry about the obsession with people's Psychedelic states, THIS IS IT NOW!!!)

 

Adya says it best, true meditation is abidance as primordial awareness, or as the Self, and post-awakening that happens 24/7, and it's amazing  

 

[zeroISinfinity]

Yeah permanent abidance as God Conciousness. 

Don't spoil the fun kiddo. I have to so they don't delude themselves.Happy hippie kids in the making. 

[silene]

49 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

my personal favortie is Pure Awareness meditation or Resting in the absolute

Can you recommend any good writings or videos on this please, or 'abidance as primordial awareness'? Sounds like what I am working towards, although at this stage the names get a bit fuzzy. Is it like Leo's Do Nothing technique? I'm trying to move on from Choiceless Awareness, which has been a step-change eye opener for me. But when I look into the more unstructured techniques (non-techniques might be a better term) it's a bit difficult to be specific and distinct about the various types. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by silene
Spelling.

[V-8]

2 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@V-8  Can you not see how you're just on the opposite end compared to seeing Meditation as the best thing ever, you have made it out to be terrible, and disregard the clear benefits it has on many. 

 

 

On the contrary,...meditation is great for those on the Long Paths (see Paul Brunton's notebooks),...my intent here is to see if there are any Kindred Spirits focused on Waking Up.  

 

Yes,...of course,...many believe that meditation has "clear benefits" that satisfy their current paradigm fixations,...that's great,...I'm not trying to change the world,...nor any interest in Waking others up. 

 

However,...I'd love to dialogue with those uncovering Truth Realization.
 

"Contradictions in perspective among those Seeing the profound do not occur" – Taranatha.

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by V-8

[LfcCharlie4]

@silene Defo, 

Check out any of these 

Adyashanti 

Rupert Spira 

Ramaji 

They all have ebooks on amazon you can get for <$10. 

[V-8]

20 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

You know not what you speak.  You are confusing what you have heard (concept) for actuality - and that is dogma.  

 it is clear from this, and the time you spend quoting others, that you still have a long way to go for your own awakening.

You can realize one day that you no longer need to quote others because there will be no others.

 

If that is accurate,... that there ultimately are no others,... then the quotes I use shouldn't offend you as dogma.   Those fixated on dogma still have a foot in SD 4,...which is partially why I love using quotes,...how people respond to them is a "tell" of their level of conscious awareness.

The quotes I use are never OUT OF CONTEXT with the context in which I'm using them. Using  quotes both distances me from the label of being a teacher, and they often irritate narrow-minded people.  Overall I'd like to connect with those who catch the point of the message, instead of drifting off with some predispositions about the messenger.

Many see a quote, and immediately form judgments about the user or the author of quote, and yet for those serious about Higher Conscious awareness,  a quote is only discerned within the context the user was using it.

Serious seekers don't get obsessed over a messenger or user of a quote,...serious seekers look at the quote, and note if it (not the author or user) has value to the conversation.

You could, if you wished, uncover much from the quote (dogma) you use....We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

 

One must be cautious with quotes from theists like Eliot however,....

"Whoever has the blood of theism in his veins, stands from the start in a false and dishonest position to all things." Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Inliytened1]

16 minutes ago, V-8 said:

On the contrary,...meditation is great for those on the Long Paths (see Paul Brunton's notebooks),...my intent here is to see if there are any Kindred Spirits focused on Waking Up.  

 

 

This is not my direct experience.  I had massive awakenings just days into meditation.  So it is very relative to the individual.   

[V-8]

5 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@silene Defo, 

Check out any of these 

Adyashanti 

Rupert Spira 

Ramaji 

They all have ebooks on amazon you can get for <$10. 

I've checked them out,...High Functioning Caterpillars teaching Caterpillars how to be Butterflies. 

"99.9% of the World's so-called wisdom, East and West, for the purposes of awakening, is about as useful as a glass of warm spit with a hair in it."  Jed McKenna