Is meditation useless?

[Derek White]

In regard to Indian schools using psychedelic, I remember seeing a video of sadhguru talking about a drink called “nine poisons” which can be used to enlighten you. There is also a video of him literally drinking cobra venom. I think he conceals and contradicts a lot. Psychedelics are common in India and are associated with Shiva.

[Nak Khid]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The mistake you're making is confusing psychedelics with makyo. Psychedelics are precisely NOT phenomenal distortions but pure insight, deeper than the insight of Zen meditation.

That means PsychedSubstance must have have many insights on a deeper level than Zen masters, despite his goofy personality

Edited December 19, 2019 by Nak Khid

[Aaron p]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Are we really supposed to believe that a guy who nearly starved himself to death in pursuit of Truth would have refrained from taking a psychedelic?

Psychedelic would have been much safer for him

[mandyjw]

44 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

I haven't experienced any horrible side effects from psychedelic use either... but I have had several friends that committed suicide after years of use/abuse. I don't know of anyone who, after years of meditation or Kundalini Awakening.

Kundalini awakening requires a spiritual background and understanding to be called that, to most people it's called psychosis. 

[Aaron p]

26 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

That means PsychedSubstance must have have many
many insights on a deeper level than Zen masters, despite his goofy personality

@Nak Khid it's whatever you make it I guess...since, your literally making it

A hippy, a scientist, a Christian, a Buddhist and a nondual seeker might all take the exact same psychedelic and dosage and see completely different kinds of things. The trip will be somewhat angled towards what they believe or what they've focused on in their lives. It might be that psychedsubstance just wants to see some cool stuff and not go deep ...and so the psychedelic don't necessarily take him as deep as a zen Masters psychedelic experience. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Aaron p

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Nak Khid said:

That means PsychedSubstance must have have many insights on a deeper level than Zen masters, despite his goofy personality

It's pretty clear he has. Although he's not someone I would call a serious seeker of truth. At least he wasn't when he was doing most of his tripping. He was a kid doing it recreationally.

[Nak Khid]

 

2 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

I have had several friends that committed suicide after years of use/abuse.

.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That is not due to the psychedelic. That is because most people who stumble into psychedelics are highly dysfunctional drug addicts with lots of shadow issues and terrible karma due to abuse, bad childhoods, etc.

Some pharmaceutical drugs have warnings on them about potential risk of inspiring suicidal thoughts. 

There are many different psychedelic chemicals and some are very different from each other.
And there are new research chemicals in this class that are created on an ongoing basis.
Their effects on the brain are not understood and different chemicals in this class have different effects.

So how can you know what effects they could have?
 

[Lento]

This is ridiculous! This is what I hate about this new age movement.

Don't judge meditation unless you've done some serious practice. Serious means at least a month of non-stop meditation. Sure, if you are to fit 20 minutes here and there into your tight schedule, then it's close to useless, but still close better than completely useless.

Meditation is one of the practices that build momentum over time. So, the more you practice it, the more you will get exponential results. Weak momentum won't ever get you far. There is a point in practice where awareness, naturally, hits a curve. And from that point on, meditation becomes a second nature, and a baseline level of awareness. Meditation, at that point, becomes a luxury for raising awareness even higher, but never a practice anymore. At that point, the healing process becomes automatic, more of a passive process. You won't need to worry about unwiring your old patterns because God has taken control, and It alone will cure you and purity you from all the earthly impurities.

Comparing psychedelics with meditation is just ridiculous, to say the least. Sure they can give you deeper insights in shorter periods of time. But they're never practical. Those insights will not make sense after the high, even to you, simply because you aren't at the same level as they are. You just peeked and saw God, but never became It.

Meditation will make you God.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Lento

[Nak Khid]

 

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The mistake you're making is confusing psychedelics with makyo. Psychedelics are precisely NOT phenomenal distortions but pure insight, deeper than the insight of Zen meditation.

________________________

insight

noun

(the ability to have) a clear, deep, and sometimes sudden understanding of a complicated problem or situation
____________________________

You suggest certain chemicals are insight,  that certain chemicals understanding of certain problems.
That means if we took one of these chemicals and with a few hours and have greater insight than a Zen master who had spent his whole life mediation and studying ancient texts.

or to get spoken wisdom merely watch one of the youtube videos where somebody records themselves during a psychedelic trip and describes it as it's going on, just write that down  and we have greater wisdom than the spiritual classics, The Bhagavad Gita, the Upshinads, The Dhammapada, The Tao Te Ching, Autobiography of a Yogi,   etc etc

Why isn't the insight and wisdom in these live trip reports being transcribed into books and replacing all this old stuff? 

And why did these old Asian traditions get canonized when Ayahuasca and Iboga shamen have been using these substances for many hundreds of years?  Where are their classic texts?
Why don't they have famous spiritual books? 
Why are these Buddhist monks, mindfulness practitioners, the Rupert Spiras, Sadhgurus doing all these lectures when it's the 
Ayahuasca and Iboga shamen who ingest these insight substances who have 10X more insight and wisdom than these other traditions which little or none of  these substances ? 
The Mexicans have been doing Psilocybin for hundreds of longer years.  Where is the Mexican Psilocybin Sacred text  and if there is one why isn't it far above in insight and wisdom than these Asian Spiritual texts or Greek classics? 
Texts aside,  why aren't these psychedelic shamans traveling the world and taking over the spiritual scene  giving talks and answering deep questions people have?
Why don't Princeton mathematics students drop acid before tests?
_______________________________________________

And how do you know that the "insight" in the experience of psychedelics is the same "insight" described by Zen masters or Hindu gurus?

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Everything is imaginary

could the perception that certain types of altered mind states are insight
also be imaginary,  merely exotic?

Let's hear the unique wisdom coming out of the psychedelic experience that is not found in
non-psychedelic traditions. 
It can only be experienced?   So it's a type of feeling then?  Why even bother to speak about it for hours then?
A tool?  Yes, it could be.   But this chemical is truth itself?
Or that mythologizing sensation?

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The mistake you're making is confusing psychedelics with makyo. Psychedelics are precisely NOT phenomenal distortions but pure insight, deeper than the insight of Zen meditation.

If this is the case and you say you have been taking the latest research chemicals that hardly anyone even knows about then where is this unique insight?   Your latest thing was "Everything is imaginary" . I could show you several books which have that same statement in them or "Everything is an illusion" which is nearly synonymous in many books.
So if you say you are on the vanguard of insight due to this chemicals where are the insights where people are all flocking to your videos and saying "that's incredible no one has ever said that before" .
Why aren't you organizing a tour to bring your insight to the world?
Why aren't people saying " I have been studying Zen and Vipasanna for years and have done long retreats in Japan and Nepal but I just heard this Mexican Bufo shaman and what he said blew all that away"
Why aren't we hearing that?

I do like to listen to your lectures but I think some things get exaggerated.
Things appearing very true but may not be. In facy imagined to be true

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Nak Khid

[V-8]

7 hours ago, Nak Khid said:

So what works better?

??? The rest of the post explained that.

[V-8]

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

@V-8 So much dogma.. cant help but internally chuckle.

Ill say this again, insight isn’t the primary utility with meditation. Radical transformation of mind and emotions are. If being happy while doing nothing isn’t something you’re interested in, no meditation needed. But all I can say is meditation has been one of the most rewarding decisions of my life  But Im also not dogmatic enough to think it’s for everyone. 

Yes,...looks like meditation is for you.  Bravo!  As for Radical Transformation,....that's another subject,...one in which meditation has no part. 

I'm not here seeking to upset meditator's obsession with their practice,...it's a very addictive behavior, and sentient beings like sticking with things that soothe and medicate,...which is something that more than 95% of humanity engage in.

My intent here is to commune with those interested in Self-Actualization and Self-Transcendence,...not to make enemies with those who identify with the substance levels of Spiral Dynamics.  This is a large reason why I use quotes,...so not to tread on other Personal Truths.    I'm not into Personal Truths,...nor Me Stories,...or other mental inertia.  However, I'm certainly interested in Radical Transformation,...as McKenna said:

"I can assure you, that anyone who has ever managed to awaken from the dream state was drive by unendurable mental and emotional forces,...many people can build nuclear reactors, compose symphonies, conquer nations, or can perform brain surgery, but very few can see what is.  Spiritual awakening is about discovering what’s true. Anything that’s not about getting to the truth must be discarded. Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing. It’s not about becoming true; it’s about unbecoming false so that all that’s left is truth." 

That's not dogma,...or a system of beliefs,...but points to the end of beliefs.   Meditation (as the quotes in my page 4 post state) is not about about uncovering truth. 

"Two truths cannot contradict one another”  - Galileo Galilei

 

 

[Leo Gura]

@Nak Khid Look dude, you are so far off the mark it's not worth my time convincing you any further.

Find out what is true for yourself.

[Nak Khid]

@V-8

1) What level do you think you are on here?

2) Also what do you see as the best method of ascending these levels?   What is the best way to do it?   Psychotherapy?   Psychedelics? 
Or just seeing it as a philosophical system or set of principle one can then just follow rather than see it as more psychologically oriented?
Or is the best way by joining a Spiral Dynamics organization where there is a group dynamic?

3) I don't advocate meditation for everybody, just if you want to do it.
But what is your experience with it?  How much have you done?  Did it bore you?
Have you ever done 20 minutes or an hour?   If so how many times?

4) Do you think forms of stoic contemplation or other contemplation are useful or to similar to meditation?

5)  You quote a lot.  How primary are books to your growth?

6)  Do you see Spiral Dynamics as unique or just a good organization of classical ideas and wisdom traditions?

35 minutes ago, V-8 said:

Yes,...looks like meditation is for you.  Bravo!  As for Radical Transformation,....that's another subject,...one in which meditation has no part. 

7)  Do you prefer radical transformation or gradual?   What is the most reliable method of radical transformation?

8)  Did you see this

 -- 8)  cont'
Did you read Maslow's : The Farther Reaches of Human Nature which is quoted in that thread? What to you think of this  later Transcendence stage he added?

Edited December 19, 2019 by Nak Khid

[Highest]

19 hours ago, Forrest Adkins said:

Does it even make sense because its so weak?

Hahaha. 

[Consilience]

35 minutes ago, V-8 said:

As for Radical Transformation,....that's another subject,...one in which meditation has no part. 

Again, dogma, clearing speaking from an absolutist's paradigm. When I say dogma, I am taking aim at your absolutistic attitude about meditation. This is further ironic given that you keep citing spiral dynamics and suggesting that meditation is a tier 1 activity. Yet if you've ever deeply studied SD, you'd recognize absolutism (dogma) is a tier 1 activity lol. So again, so many chuckles. Speaking in my experience, meditation has radically transformed my experience. Stable attention, unification of mind, heightened sensitivity to body, and metacognitive awareness of thought (and more not worth listing) have all played into what I'm calling "radical transformation." 

 

39 minutes ago, V-8 said:

My intent here is to commune with those interested in Self-Actualization and Self-Transcendence,...not to make enemies with those who identify with the substance levels of Spiral Dynamics.

Hahaha thank you friend. You've made no enemies here. Only helped me see first hand self-deception and made me look more closely into my own. Which is part of why I qualify most of my meditation comments; qualify that I acknowledge meditation isn't for everyone. If you are too dogmatic to see the utility meditation has for Self-Actualization and Self-Transcendence, I can't help you. Refer to my above comments regarding SD. I invite you to transcend into tier 2 relativism, and acknowledge that maybe, just maybe meditation has utility for certain individual's based on relative mind structures, histories, environments, culture, perhaps even past lives, etc. Or don't. 

 

44 minutes ago, V-8 said:

That's not dogma,...or a system of beliefs,...but points to the end of beliefs.   Meditation (as the quotes in my page 4 post state) is not about about uncovering truth. 

Making absolutist claims that meditation has no utility for Self-Actualization or Self-Transcendence is dogma my friend. No way around that one. 

If you read, I actually addressed this point about meditation. I agree with you. Meditation is not inherently about uncovering truth. It is about the rewiring of one's mind, and emotions which facilitate the integration and processing of insights. Dry insight alone is rather weak if one's attention span can't stay still, if one is constantly being dragged around by the mind. Believe it or not, you can have deep insights into the existential nature of reality but have these insights poorly integrated into lived baseline experience if attention is weak. 

So again, I invite you to consider the possibility that your perspective is partial and does not contain within it the full truth. I further invite you to take a leap into tier 2 thinking and try to see the partial truth in the words I write rather than clinging to your absolutist's attitude with meditation, if only to help make you a better teacher for those who do not understand Self-Actualization or Transcendence. 

[Consilience]

@Nak Khid Radical transformation = gradual transformation change over the long run. 

[joeyi99]

@Leo Gura Is Sadguru a bodhisattva?

[calibrate]

2 hours ago, Lento said:

This is ridiculous! This is what I hate about this new age movement.

Don't judge meditation unless you've done some serious practice. Serious means at least a month of non-stop meditation. Sure, if you are to fit 20 minutes here and there into your tight schedule, then it's close to useless, but still close better than completely useless.

Meditation is one of the practices that build momentum over time. So, the more you practice it, the more you will get exponential results. Weak momentum won't ever get you far. There is a point in practice where awareness, naturally, hits a curve. And from that point on, meditation becomes a second nature, and a baseline level of awareness. Meditation, at that point, becomes a luxury for raising awareness even higher, but never a practice anymore. At that point, the healing process becomes automatic, more of a passive process. You won't need to worry about unwiring your old patterns because God has taken control, and It alone will cure you and purity you from all the earthly impurities.

Comparing psychedelics with meditation is just ridiculous, to say the least. Sure they can give you deeper insights in shorter periods of time. But they're never practical. Those insights will not make sense after the high, even to you, simply because you aren't at the same level as they are. You just peeked and saw God, but never became It.

Meditation will make you God.

There are no better words to describe meditation than this. Meditation is some serious shit if you do it well. It's a skill like anything else, and I feel like a lot of people give up instead of trying to learn how to do it properly

[calibrate]

Meditation is almost like the whole experience thing with employment. You need experience to get a job, but you need a job to get experience.

Does this mean you give up when you don't get results? No, you just keep at it every day no matter what. Consistency is key

Having a meditation practice is preferred to not having one, I can't see how anyone can honestly say otherwise. Sounds like laziness to me

Edited December 19, 2019 by calibrate

[Nak Khid]

5 hours ago, Lento said:

Comparing psychedelics with meditation is just ridiculous, to say the least. Sure they can give you deeper insights in shorter periods of time. But they're never practical. Those insights will not make sense after the high, even to you, simply because you aren't at the same level as they are. You just peeked and saw God, but never became It.

Yes

Meditation could be tranquil and relaxing or it can bring out some negative  feelings and be hard to bear. When you meditate you can encounter boredom and that boredom can bring out old memories and trauma that you might have to deal with , learn to let go of or forgive.    That could take time to restructure because some of these can have habitaulized and the brain likes to fall back on this like a routine so it becomes a structure you have to break and slowly rebuild. 

Then you take a psychedelic and that could also bring up old traumas but it's not going to mixed into boredom.   It's going to be mixed with strange perceptions and sometime visual or aural effects.   It could be wonderful or scary  but it's not going to be boring.
That's why they call it a trip.

Then when you return to doing sober mediation the boredom one sometimes has to work through can become twice as boring
relative to the psychedelic experience where you know
that will be exotic experience,  whether awesome or scary

So there can be insights of a trip
and insights in meditation
but the insights are different
It could take you years to appreciate the
less dramatic outer perceptual  experience and realize it's true depth

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Nak Khid