Is meditation useless?

[Inliytened1]

I'm not discouraging meditation at all - by no means.   But for me personally it happened via meditation within days.   And i see a lot of people on here having meditated for years and haven't had an awakening.  They might understand everything conceptually - but they haven't had mystical experiences.   If you are getting into years then if it were me i would start leveraging any and all tools i had at my disposal.

 

[robdl]

Doesn't approaching meditation as a useful/non-useful means to an end imply achievement, a goal, ambition, time --- all of which are mind?  

Mind can only see meditation in terms of what will it achieve, what will its use be.  

Edited December 18, 2019 by robdl

[LfcCharlie4]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Consept It's not that the psychedelic will do all the work for you. It's just a way to understand reality at the highest and deepest level which would otherwise be virtually impossible.

The psychedelic will motivate you to get serious about the work. You basically won't understand half the things I say until you do some psychedelics. And then the real work can begin.

Most of those gurus became awakened by fluke luck, so it's not wise to count on that happening to you. You are not Sadhguru, so don't expect his results. You are you, so you must deal with the cards life has dealt you. Life has dealt most of you bad cards, so you will want every tool at your disposal to overcome that.

If you insist on crawling up the mountain on your belly, go for it. But you could also just take a helicopter.

 

Don't forget there's a LOT of gurus who I class as fully realized who got there through working with a teacher 1-1, I agree that talking to a huge audience isn't that effective for awakening as everyone is an individual and therefore requires individual attention for the most part, at least I did, especially if not going down Psyches route. 

I see books, talks etc as tools to help people and as great introductions, but real work is actually working through your shit, having awakenings integrating them and also utilizing foundational PD to improve all areas of your life imo. 

For the majority of people, teachers such as Rupert Spira, Francis Lucille, Ramaji, Adya are the most relatable as they actually worked with a teacher 1-1 or had to 'work' for this and didn't just have spontaneous awakenings like Ramana did (not shitting on him as Ramana is one of the greatest masters of the last 100 years) 

But, as you say, for those who spontaneously awakened, it's harder as they don't have a process as such or didn't go through that seeking phase, so they need to kind of empathize with seekers on what would help them most in their own situation. 

Hence, why I strongly advocate 1-1 work with a truly self realized being, I was stuck in a loop of Non-Dual addiction for 2 years getting barely anywhere. 

[WelcometoReality]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I notice this in myself. I was born a philosopher. I would estimate I have double the baseline level of consciousness of the average human and my sensitivity to psychedelics is at least double or triple that of a typical human. But even so, I never had spontaneous mystical experiences as many masters do. So I am nowhere near the top of the bell-curve of spiritual giftedness. But it is no accident that I ended up in this line of work.

Yes contemplation can be a great tool to have in this work.

So the sensitivity to psychadelics is an important aspect to having mystical experiences, but what about the realization of the true self, that is prior to these experiences?

[Nak Khid]

Ram Dass on Psychedelics and Enlightenment

 

[Thewritersunion]

I can relate to this.

My memory is altered naturally. (“Memory”)

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

What would be interesting to know is how much easier it was for them to awaken vs someone who didn't have these experiences in their youth.

It can still be difficult for them. Plenty of spiritually gifted people have harrowing journeys to awakening (like the many classic shaman stories). So don't get the idea that being spiritually gifted makes this process a walk in the park. You can be spiritually gifted and still have a lot of shadow material to work through.

But the biggest thing is, most people will never even attempt to awaken or know about awakening otherwise, unless they are lucky enough to stumble upon it.

A big secret to successful awakening is have the right motivation, curiosity, and desire for it. That in itself is a very rare thing which already requires a certain degree of spiritual attunement. If you motivation is strong, the rest is just a matter of time. If you motivation is weak, almost nothing can help you. So getting your motivation straight is crucial. Which is where psychedelics can be especially helpful. People would be a lot more motivated to awaken if they had a direct experience of God or Infinite Consciousness. It's very hard to build motivation off hearsay and fairytales. It's crucial to experience God for yourself so you know that it is more real than a brick wall. It's very hard to be motivated to pursue a thing for years which you doubt is real.

[robdl]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Not so hard really. If you ask most masters about their childhoods and how they got into spirituality, many of them will tell the same story of having spontaneous (psychedelic-like) mystical experiences, kundalini activations, astral projection, lucid dreaming, etc. when they were in their teens. Not to mention that basically all of them were deeply interested in metaphysical and spiritual questions from their youth. It is not at all an accident that they got involved in spiritual work.

I notice this in myself. I was born a philosopher. I would estimate I have double the baseline level of consciousness of the average human and my sensitivity to psychedelics is at least double or triple that of a typical human. But even so, I never had spontaneous mystical experiences as many masters do. So I am nowhere near the top of the bell-curve of spiritual giftedness. But it is no accident that I ended up in this line of work.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Not so hard really. If you ask most masters about their childhoods and how they got into spirituality, many of them will tell the same story of having spontaneous (psychedelic-like) mystical experiences, kundalini activations, astral projection, lucid dreaming, etc. when they were in their teens. Not to mention that basically all of them were deeply interested in metaphysical and spiritual questions from their youth. It is not at all an accident that they got involved in spiritual work.

I notice this in myself. I was born a philosopher. I would estimate I have double the baseline level of consciousness of the average human and my sensitivity to psychedelics is at least double or triple that of a typical human. But even so, I never had spontaneous mystical experiences as many masters do. So I am nowhere near the top of the bell-curve of spiritual giftedness. But it is no accident that I ended up in this line of work.

You're not a philosopher.  You may do philosophy, then you may do your laundry, then do whichever next thing. 

 

[Consept]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Not so hard really. If you ask most masters about their childhoods and how they got into spirituality, many of them will tell the same story of having spontaneous (psychedelic-like) mystical experiences, kundalini activations, astral projection, lucid dreaming, etc. when they were in their teens. Not to mention that basically all of them were deeply interested in metaphysical and spiritual questions from their youth. It is not at all an accident that they got involved in spiritual work.

I notice this in myself. I was born a philosopher. I would estimate I have double the baseline level of consciousness of the average human and my sensitivity to psychedelics is at least double or triple that of a typical human. But even so, I never had spontaneous mystical experiences as many masters do. So I am nowhere near the top of the bell-curve of spiritual giftedness. But it is no accident that I ended up in this line of work.

It's true in a lot of cases with the popular masters but when you look at someone like Paul Hedderman he was not spiritually gifted, he did every drug under the sun and came to a realisation during the depths of despair. Similar with Eckart he was just about to commit suicide from depression and came to a realisation, so in these instances extreme mental anguish made them see clearly but previously no spiritual gifts necessarily. So I don't think it's a fact that seem people just get it from birth and everyone else has to crawl with meditation or take psychedelics, I think if you can really see the futility of your efforts to become enlightened and essentially realise what you are you will get there, it's just maybe pain needs to be the fuel to get you there. 

[VeganAwake]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, it's not useless. But it just cannot compare to a powerful psychedelic.

It's the difference between a bow & arrow and a nuclear bomb.

But also appreciate this: if you don't have a nuclear bomb, a bow & arrow is still damn useful.

Yeah but the use...even responsible use of psychedelics can carry some heavy side effects with it that you don't usually include with your conclusions.

Meditation can naturally still the Whirlwind of the mind and wake people up just as effectively without any of the nasty side effects.

I will take your challenge using my deep meditation based Samadhi Experience VS your Psychedelic Absolute Infinity Awakening.

Haha the funny thing is both are the same Absolute...

My only question is do they use a lot of psychedelics in India Leo? Have you searched that one hmmm... 

 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Consept said:

look at someone like Paul Hedderman he was not spiritually gifted, he did every drug under the sun and came to a realisation during the depths of despair. Similar with Eckart he was just about to commit suicide from depression and came to a realisation, so in these instances extreme mental anguish made them see clearly but previously no spiritual gifts necessarily.

Sure, but this is basically spirituality by Russian roulette. Do you really want to play such a game?

How many people die each year from playing such games? You don't hear about them. There are some 50,000+ suicides per year in the US alone. How many of them could have been avoided with some strategic use of psychedelics? A lot.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Yeah but the use...even responsible use of psychedelics can carry some heavy side effects with it that you don't usually include with your conclusions.

Personally I have not encountered any heavy side effects.

Some people can get HPPD and the like. So there are some risks. Then again, meditation and kundalini awakening also carries some risk of side-effects.

Quote

My only question is do they use a lot of psychedelics in India Leo? Have you searched that one hmmm...

Some spiritual schools do. Weed and datura have been used in India for millennia by some schools. And then there is the ancient psychedelic drink called Soma, the contents of which we don't know for sure, but was likely similar to magic mushrooms.

I'll tell you this much, if the Buddha has access to 5-MeO-DMT, I don't doubt he'd use it. Are we really supposed to believe that a guy who nearly starved himself to death in pursuit of Truth would have refrained from taking a psychedelic?

[Ferdi Le]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure, but this is basically spirituality by Russian roulette. Do you really want to play such a game?

How many people die each year from playing such games? You don't hear about them. There are some 50,000+ suicides per year in the US alone. How many of them could have been avoided with some strategic use of psychedelics? A lot.

So this work is a role of the dice after all?

I remember this line from your "Motivational Speech for a Profound Life"

[Highest]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

I'm not discouraging meditation at all - by no means.   But for me personally it happened via meditation within days.   And i see a lot of people on here having meditated for years and haven't had an awakening.  They might understand everything conceptually - but they haven't had mystical experiences.   If you are getting into years then if it were me i would start leveraging any and all tools i had at my disposal.

 

Nice. I was turned into the spiritual supernatural realm days after meditation. When that passed, it took like 2 years to finally become conscious that I'm The One and Only aka God. 

Now it's time for the other thing I'm not so gifted with: How to be with my fellow beings. I think beginning with my energy field is crucial as energy is fundamental.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Ferdi Le said:

So this work is a role of the dice after all?

I remember this line from your "Motivational Speech for a Profound Life"

I don't like to gamble with my spirituality, which is why I go with a sure bet.

[Consept]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't like to gamble with my spirituality, which is why I go with a sure bet.

Ultimately its all a roll of a dice, theres people that could do psychedelics all their life and not be fully realised. Awakening is a realisation that 'you' are not in control and ceding control to the bigger you, i actually got a first real insight by watching a psychology doc on the brain and it stated something like the conscious you just thinks its the star of the movie but its not at all and that really made me think.

But i definitely take your earlier point, i think a lot of pain and despair can be chipped away but looking through the perspective psychedelics give you, i would advise anyone to do it myself at least once. But i dont think its a sure route to enlightenment i just think its a good tool that can help you along your way   

[VeganAwake]

40 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Personally I have not encountered any heavy side effects.

Some people can get HPPD and the like. So there are some risks. Then again, meditation and kundalini awakening also carries some risk of side-effects.

Some spiritual schools do. Weed and datura have been used in India for millennia by some schools. And then there is the ancient psychedelic drink called Soma, the contents of which we don't know for sure, but was likely similar to magic mushrooms.

I haven't experienced any horrible side effects from psychedelic use either... but I have had several friends that committed suicide after years of use/abuse. I don't know of anyone who, after years of meditation or Kundalini Awakening.

I'm sure a lot of it could be chalked up to family history of mental illness..

Only the mind creates good/bad should/shouldn't's

Nothing really matters...the separation never occurred... it is what it is.

Enlightenment is realizing THIS is all there is was or ever will be. It's the beginning, the end and everything in-between it's the Absolute ❤

It's as real and dreamlike as anything could be ...it's simply THIS!!

Unknowing ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by VeganAwake

[Nak Khid]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't like to gamble with my spirituality, which is why I go with a sure bet.

you mean taking research chemicals from China nobody has ever taken before?

.

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Nak Khid

[VeganAwake]

Also I'm aware that improperly made psychedelics could be a big factor in this ❤

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

I have had several friends that committed suicide after years of use/abuse.

That is not due to the psychedelic. That is because most people who stumble into psychedelics are highly dysfunctional drug addicts with lots of shadow issues and terrible karma due to abuse, bad childhoods, etc.

Generally well-functioning members of society don't encounter psychedelics. You have to go out your way to use them due to the social stigma.

Most trip reports I read are written by highly dysfunctional, impure, and immature people.

Look at PsychedSubstance's trip reports, for example. Stupidity on stilts.

Today he's more mature though. So good for him. But unfortunately psychedelics are still such an underground thing that lots of low-lives do them, giving them a bad reputation.