Is meditation useless?

[Austin Actualizing]

8 minutes ago, Dovahkiin said:

I don't think I could have handled the psychedelics without having meditated for 3 years prior.

Which psychedelics took 3 years of preparation to be able to handle? Asking this to see how long I would need to meditate for to be ready for a LSD of Mushroom trip. 

[ardacigin]

The reality of the situation is that meditation requires discipline, consistency and proper technique according to the student. And a lot of time is needed. 

If you are taking a 3-month retreat meditating 10 + hours a day and REALLY applying the techniques properly, experiencing the growth systematically and still think you got more consciousness from a few psychedelic trips, you are doing it wrong.  The techniques are not working. I'm talking about the baseline increase in consciousness. Not the peak experience of insight.

Also, if you think 1 hour a day is anything serious, you need to realize that people do retreats for a reason. Crank up the intensity. You need tangible skills to do get anywhere and from what I'm observing with people, they do practices without diligence. Doing self enquiry for a 15 mins changing it to breath meditation for 10 mins and doing some labeling and ending it with do-noting. 

You miss the point. The momentum of all these practices are interrupted by the next technique. That is what we call dabbling. Stable attention and concentration development is the name of the game in the beginning stages. The multi-perspectival approach which is great is turning into a way to just spice up the boredom and restlessness of stable attention as a dabbler.

The hard work is maintaining that stable attention. Then you add the awareness. Then you learn how to maintain them together. Distracting thoughts start to fall away. Sleepiness starts to go away. The mind is energized. Then you get to effortlessness. Then joy and happiness arises. Then contentment arises. Then equanimity and insights starts to arise.

Try to get more serious about meditation. Using psychedelics must be done responsibly. 

Also yoga and meditation are not distinct practices. One is not more powerful than the other just because yoga introduces body movements and postures. They are both extremely powerful.  In a yoga posture, you are not thinking about stuff. If you are, then you are not ready to maintain attention in yogıc posture and body movements. Again, learn to stabilize attention first. Then do the yoga postures. 

You can do kriya yoga like that for 10 years and just like meditation, not get anywhere. Kriya yoga is not a magic pill. It requires as much diligence as mindfulness meditation. If kriya yoga is 100 times easier to practice than sitting meditation, then you are doing kriya yoga without mindfulness like a physical exercise. And that won't get you anywhere.

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by ardacigin

[ADD]

@ardacigin Valid points. What do you think about reminding yourself to be present at everyday life? I try to bring awareness to my daily activities as often as i can.

[Dovahkiin]

@ardacigin You have no clue what my practice is like 

 

I practiced for one month of nonstop vipassana in a monastic setting in Nepal before this retreat. I understand discipline and "applying the techniques properly." And just because I rated the growth as lower than psychedelic growth doesn't mean it wasn't substantial. I spent hours in bliss fully present with every footstep, loving every action and moment. I saw some wild stuff manifest in the mind and body. Yet, one ayahuasca retreat I did was like 10 years of therapy in one weekend, and I have to call that more impactful (as of now).

 

There are poems from the first enlightened nuns which talk about practicing for YEARS with little sign of awakening, and then finally getting it one day. Progress and growth aren't linear. And if you want to develop true equanimity,  that means learning to be equanimous while actually  struggling in meditation practice.

 

You are correct about the importance of discipline, but should be careful assuming that discipline and ease are opposites. You need some ease for your heart to actually be in these practices.

 

26 minutes ago, Austin Actualizing said:

Which psychedelics took 3 years of preparation to be able to handle? Asking this to see how long I would need to meditate for to be ready for a LSD of Mushroom trip. 

My answer should not inform your decision. Every person, trip and meditative roadmap is different.

I started with 3g of mushrooms, so this is what I was referring to. I'd recommend less on the first time.

 

[Consilience]

@Dovahkiin Definitely agree with everything you wrote... It really resonates. And yes, happiness isn't insight, however happiness IS an insight haha. I use the techniques outlined in The Mind Illuminated, which is a book heavily focused around Samatha, but it's more accurately a samatha-vipassina hybrid as it combines elements of both in an integrated way. Feels like a SD stage yellow meditation book, with streaks of turquoise. Highly recommend it if you feel more pull towards traditional meditation vs. kriya. I've done some kriya yoga, but it feels a bit too active for me. There's something about the stillness and potential boredom that arises with meditation that attracts me. I think eventually I'll give Kriya another shot once I've developed the skills with meditation I want. 

My strategy with consciousness work is using meditation to transform my mind and use contemplation/psychedelics for insights. I don't really regard meditation as an insight generator (though I have had many insights while meditating), but rather a tool that works directly on reprogramming my mind and emotions, as well as a tool for integrating the insights I've gotten from both dry contemplation and contemplation under the influence of psychedelics. 

Edit: To give credit where credit is due, @ardacigin is the one who initially brought The Mind Illuminated on my radar. He has a lot of really great posts talking about facets of meditation and its utility. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Consilience

[Consept]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Consept It's not that the psychedelic will do all the work for you. It's just a way to understand reality at the highest and deepest level which would otherwise be virtually impossible.

The psychedelic will motivate you to get serious about the work. You basically won't understand half the things I say until you do some psychedelics. And then the real work can begin.

Most of those gurus became awakened by fluke luck, so it's not wise to count on that happening to you. You are not Sadhguru, so don't expect his results. You are you, so you must deal with the cards life has dealt you. Life has dealt most of you bad cards, so you will want every tool at your disposal to overcome that.

If you insist on crawling up the mountain on your belly, go for it. But you could also just take a helicopter.

I agree with you in that the psychedelic can crack the current perspective, I know this from personal experience trying mushrooms for the first time when I wasn't really into spiritual topics, once I had that experience there was no going back and I learnt a lot after the fact. But it's not necessarily going to stabilise you into that so it's not a direct route which I guess you did agree with. My point was though, that I've never really heard of someone getting enlightened even mentioning psychedelics as a big factor in it, in fact ive heard a lot of people not even that into spirituality or non dual topics that take psychedelics regularly but are not concerned with enlightenment. So I'm just questioning whether apart from maybe initial insight into something else are psychedelics really fast forwarding people to enlightenment? 

I'm more than willing to be proven wrong on this I just haven't seen it personally. Potentially the fact that people are chasing enlightenment through anything, in this case psychedelics, could actually slow down your enlightenment until you get past that crutch. 

[Dovahkiin]

@Consilience Nice, I want to read The Mind Illuminated; it's been on my list too long. Best wishes with Kriya when you get there

 

12 minutes ago, Consept said:

I've never really heard of someone getting enlightened even mentioning psychedelics as a big factor in it, in fact ive heard a lot of people not even that into spirituality or non dual topics that take psychedelics regularly but are not concerned with enlightenment. So I'm just questioning whether apart from maybe initial insight into something else are psychedelics really fast forwarding people to enlightenment? 

 

The veil has only been truly lifted on psychedelics for like 50 years. Who knows what Jesus, the Buddha, Muhammad, Lao Tzu, Dharmakirti, Lahiri Mahasaya or any pre-20th-century enlightened person would have said about them? I dunno!

 

They also remain very stigmatized, so only a small percentage of people who believe them to be enlightening will cop to that belief publicly.

 

I also know a lot of people not into spirituality who use psychedelics to "get fucked up." People use the internet for porn, use the coca plant (a potentially useful and healing plant) for cocaine, and use the incredible alchemical discovery of combustion for monster truck rallies. So I don't think this has any bearing on the enlightening *potential* of psychedelics.

[V-8]

11 hours ago, Forrest Adkins said:

Is meditation useless?

 

For those seeking Spiritual Awakening, Truth Realization, Bodhicitta, etc.,...yes, meditation is useless.  However, if you seek to sustain your paradigm within the 6 lower substance levels of Spiral Dynamics, then meditation is helpful in keeping one asleep.  
 

"Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."  Lao-Tzu  Huahujing
 

“If your purpose is to medicate dukkha,...then meditate. If your wish is bodhi,...practice absolute bodhicitta.”  a Chan  saying.
 

Hui Neng said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic.   

"After Buddha's passing away, monks and nuns only emphasized meditation; there was no interest in studying the teachings."  Anam Thubten
 

I totally laugh every time I see an image of Buddha meditating,...what reason would a Buddha have meditating?

Historically, Siddhartha Gautama was near dead from meditation when a young girl named Sujata (likely a dakini) offered him some food (perhaps rice cooked in milk). Some say a state of appreciation filled him from this meal, and others as he recovered his physical strength, through a state of appreciation, he realized the nature of Dependent Origination from which suffering arises.

Meditation is a fabulous tool for training the mind to interact with time in a different way.  Non-meditation uncovers that which is beyond time; the Present,...  Heart-Mind,...to place yourself in unfabricated present awareness.  No practice can create the Present,...because all practices are in the past.
 

"Rest in the ease of non-meditation.”  Saraha
 

"We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you uncover Source."  Esther Hicks
 

"Meditation is a Long Path activity.  Devotee’s are concerned with learning how to concentrate their thoughts in the practice of meditation, and later even with meditation itself.   Short Path practitioners practice Non-Meditation" -  Paul Brunton
 

“Many people like meditation. But it is not very constructive or useful. It does not decrease our negative mindsets of anger, attachments, etc. It does not increase our qualities of kindness, truthfulness and wisdom. So, we might be able to sit still single-pointedly for four or five hours, but what’s the point? It’s like a pigeon!”    Khadro-la
 

"Meditation, yoga, or one of the many so-called spiritual activities has little to do with liberation from delusion, and everything do to with their desperation to escape busy, unhappy lives, and heartfelt longing for a healthy, stress-free, happy life"  Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
 

"In a state of non-meditation, you attain Mahamudra." Tilopa

"Free yourself from meditation, practice non-meditation" - Kyergangpa Chökyi Senge
 

"The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life."   - Wei Wu Wei  

"in my regard there is no view on which to meditate" - Kunje Gyalpo

"The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...."  Jigme Lingpa

A Master does not teach meditation,...teachers teach meditation,...a Master is an awakener.  

[Nak Khid]

 

 

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 Psychedelics are .......pure insight, deeper than the insight of Zen meditation.

thus

Quote

LSD is pure insight

( Lysergic acid diethylamide is pure insight )

________________________

insight

noun

(the ability to have) a clear, deep, and sometimes sudden understanding of a complicated problem or situation
____________________________

This means certain chemicals are understanding of certain problems.
What is an example of a problem that Lysergic acid diethylamide has solved that has not been solved in other ways? 

 

[Nak Khid]

6 minutes ago, V-8 said:

For those seeking Spiritual Awakening, Truth Realization, Bodhicitta, etc.,...yes, meditation is useless. 
 

So what works better?

[remember]

3 hours ago, Dovahkiin said:

I just finished a 3-month insight meditation retreat — non-stop vipassana — and the growth there seems no greater than that from a few trips I had this year.

 

I’m still glad I did it, will still practice daily, but the idea of seeing all the mind’s patterning and deconstructing it with meditation alone is starting to seem foolhardy.

it`s actually a commercial... although a good one.

Edited December 18, 2019 by remember

[WelcometoReality]

@Inliytened1 @Leo Gura How did you come to the conclusion that most masters are spiritually gifted? It seems like a hard thing to investigate scientifically.

@Forrest Adkins nice topic forrest. Really stirring the waters with dynamite here.

As I don't have any experience with psychadelics (not counting cannabis) or any formal training in meditation. I don't have any opinion in this matter. I do like what adyashantis teacher used to say.

"Only the phonies don't get enlightened"

If you want truth and are not in it just to be spiritual. Investigating truth with an open mind. And make that your number one priority you'll get enlightened. (My belief of course)

[Leo Gura]

26 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

How did you come to the conclusion that most masters are spiritually gifted? It seems like a hard thing to investigate scientifically.

Not so hard really. If you ask most masters about their childhoods and how they got into spirituality, many of them will tell the same story of having spontaneous (psychedelic-like) mystical experiences, kundalini activations, astral projection, lucid dreaming, etc. when they were in their teens. Not to mention that basically all of them were deeply interested in metaphysical and spiritual questions from their youth. It is not at all an accident that they got involved in spiritual work.

I notice this in myself. I was born a philosopher. I would estimate I have double the baseline level of consciousness of the average human and my sensitivity to psychedelics is at least double or triple that of a typical human. But even so, I never had spontaneous mystical experiences as many masters do. So I am nowhere near the top of the bell-curve of spiritual giftedness. But it is no accident that I ended up in this line of work.

[Zigzag Idiot]

I find the practice of having two 20-30 minute Centering Prayer practices per day sufficient . Studies have shown that a twenty minute stretch of Centering Prayer can have an effect on altering neural networks if gone about with any degree of diligence. Over time this has a cumulative effect in producing a more accessible Witnessing consciousness. ?

Witness Consciousness to me feels like activating the intensity and clarity of an altruistic and benign honey badger minus the violent behavior.

If done with any degree of earnestness, I feel it helps shoehorn my narrative consciousness into the more steady and equaninimous condition of witness consciousness, which after time develops a srtengthened morphogenetic field of its own.

That is all. ?????? 

Underlying ligtheartness can provide an benefiviual cruicial element. False seriousness is often an impediment to intuition, openness and goodwill and a limited awareness.

 

[WelcometoReality]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not so hard really. If you ask most masters about their childhoods and how they got into spirituality, many of them will tell the same story of having spontaneous (psychedelic-like) mystical experiences, kundalini activations, astral projection, lucid dreaming, etc. when they were in their teens. Not to mention that basically all of them were deeply interested in metaphysical and spiritual questions from their youth.

That would explain there interest in spirtuality also. Having these experiences does makes one question the reality of reality and spark a curiosity for what the fabric of reality is.

What would be interesting to know is how much easier it was for them to awaken vs someone who didn't have these experiences in their youth.

[Nak Khid]

3 hours ago, Dovahkiin said:

I just finished a 3-month insight meditation retreat — non-stop vipassana — and the growth there seems no greater than that from a few trips I had this year.

what do you mean by growth?

[Aaron p]

This is a very...interesting, thread

[Consilience]

@V-8 So much dogma.. cant help but internally chuckle.

Ill say this again, insight isn’t the primary utility with meditation. Radical transformation of mind and emotions are. If being happy while doing nothing isn’t something you’re interested in, no meditation needed. But all I can say is meditation has been one of the most rewarding decisions of my life  But Im also not dogmatic enough to think it’s for everyone. 

[ardacigin]

3 hours ago, ADD said:

@ardacigin Valid points. What do you think about reminding yourself to be present at everyday life? I try to bring awareness to my daily activities as often as i can.

@ADDReminding in terms of thinking 'Oh, I need to be mindful let me focus on the present moment experience' or being mindful metacognitively with awareness without falling down to unconsciousness. 

If it is the former, it is not bad on theory. But in practice, it has the potential to facilitate monkey mind. But it can also have the effect of labelling sort of noting practice. 'I'm now drinking tea.' - I'm looking at a bird etc. 

So conceptual reference about the present moment is helpful as long as you can shut off that internal commentary and just metacognitively notice the present moment.

If it is the latter, that is great. But make sure the metacognitive awareness is as unbroken as possible. This is usually done either through introspective or extrospective awareness. So either you have stellar awareness on external sights, sounds and touch or stellar awareness on mind states, emotions, craving levels, emotions, movements of attention and awareness on cognitive processes. 

Or you can get mindfulness to the next level and combine both introspective and extrosptective awareness in an optimal level and maintain that, however we are talking about late stage 9  and stage 10 TMI practice at this point.

This requires a lot of mental energy and is basically a light form of non-dual consciousness. The body sensations are starting to be seen as a mental construction. You barely feel the body sensations. The mind has little to no mental activity. Physical and mental pliancy goes through the roof in a state of open spacious awareness in effortlessness with joy, happiness, contentment and equanimity. Joy and happiness can disappear depending on how much of the body sensations are gone.

This is quite challenging even for me as a stage 8 meditator. I understand what a stage 10 meditator does with this but this amount of integration of all these skills at the same time is beyond my current skill level. I've gotten close to this integration in formal sits but it requires more physical pliancy on my part. And more equanimity obviously.

In other words, this means a stage 10 TMI meditator can easily do a 4 hour SDS sit. With ease. We are talking about some serious mastery here. I certainly can do 1.5 and 2 hour SDS sits but 3-4 hours SDS requires a deeper level of mindfulness. Like the one I'm describing above.

But at that level of mastery, your metacognitive awareness will be so strong that you will stay mindful all day more deeply. That is where you ultimately want to go to. But conceptual reminders are very important in the beginning.

Just shut the commentary after being aware and try to revert to a nonverbal perception as much as you can in daily life.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by ardacigin

[Aaron p]

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not so hard really. If you ask most masters about their childhoods and how they got into spirituality, many of them will tell the same story of having spontaneous (psychedelic-like) mystical experiences, kundalini activations, astral projection, lucid dreaming, etc. when they were in their teens. Not to mention that basically all of them were deeply interested in metaphysical and spiritual questions from their youth. It is not at all an accident that they got involved in spiritual work.

I notice this in myself. I was born a philosopher. I would estimate I have double the baseline level of consciousness of the average human and my sensitivity to psychedelics is at least double or triple that of a typical human. But even so, I never had spontaneous mystical experiences as many masters do. So I am nowhere near the top of the bell-curve of spiritual giftedness. But it is no accident that I ended up in this line of work.

@Leo Gura truth be told, it's kinda the same with myself. I've only ever cared about deep metaphysical shit. Since I was very young I've only been interested in understanding truth. Spent a shitton of my teen years researching my religion. I've always been able to just pull truth straight out of any situation, it's fucken easy for me. It's got to the point where I can now intuitively tell shit like when someone's lying or whether I'm doing something wrong in my practises. I follow the urges and guidance I feel from...God. even though I'm still not conscious of it.

About 1-2 years ago the voice told me to go up and put my hand on a tree, I did, and it said "none of it is real." I just thought, wtf does that mean.

In fact leo, the only reason I listen to you is because I was (by chance) watching one of your videos (unrelated to spirituality at the time) a long while ago and something deep within me said "stop, x marks the spot" and I knew it was trying to get me to listen to you. 

Although, I'm gonna seriously need to ramp up my psychedelics game if what you guys are saying here is true. Fuck crawling up mount Everest. I have 5meoDMT that I've been too scared to try. I'm gonna do 2 heavy doeses of DMT then try the frog ?