Is meditation useless?

[remember]

4 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

Makyō

The term makyō is a Zen term that means “ghost cave” or “devil’s cave.” It is a figurative reference to the kind of self-delusion that results from clinging to an experience and making a conceptual “nest” out of it for oneself. Makyō is essentially synonymous with illusion, but especially in reference to experiences that can occur within meditation practice.

and that means if it occurs within meditation it also occurs during psychedelic trips and afterwards. the beauty about meditation is that it works completely without psychedelics. you can even inquire about makyo in quasi meditation.

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

Makyō

The term makyō is a Zen term that means “ghost cave” or “devil’s cave.” It is a figurative reference to the kind of self-delusion that results from clinging to an experience and making a conceptual “nest” out of it for oneself. Makyō is essentially synonymous with illusion, but especially in reference to experiences that can occur within meditation practice.

In Philip Kapleau's The Three Pillars of Zen, Hakuun Yasutani explained the term as the combination of ma meaning devil and kyo meaning the objective world. This character for “devil” can also refer to Mara, the Buddhist “tempter” figure; and the character kyo can mean simply region, condition or place. Makyō refers to the hallucinations and perceptual distortions that can arise during the course of meditation and can be mistaken by the practitioner as "seeing the true nature" or kenshō. Zen masters warn their meditating students to ignore sensory distortions. These can occur in the form of visions and perceptual distortions, but they can also be experiences of blank, trance-like absorption states. In the Zen school, it is understood that neither category of experience – however fascinating they may be – is a true and final enlightenment.

Contemplative literature contains numerous descriptions of the perceptual distortion produced by meditation. It is characterized in some schools as "going to the movies," a sign of spiritual intensity but a phenomenon that is considered distinctly inferior to the clear insight of settled practice. In some Hindu schools it is regarded as a product of the sukshma sharira, or "experience body," in its unstable state, and in that respect is seen to be another form of maya, which is the illusory nature of the world as apprehended by ordinary consciousness.

Tibetan contemplative literature uses the parallel term nyam, which fall into three categories, usually listed as clarity, bliss, and non-conceptuality. Many types of meditation phenomena can be classed under this rubric, and are generally tied to the reorganization of the body's subtle energies that can occur in meditation.

The mistake you're making is confusing psychedelics with makyo. Psychedelics are precisely NOT phenomenal distortions but pure insight, deeper than the insight of Zen meditation. The visual distortions that some psychedelics cause are to be completely ignored. The visual distortions arise with psychedelics precisely for the same reason they arise in meditation. They arise even more with psychedelics because they are like meditation x100. So you get 100 times stronger visual distortions but also 100 times deeper insight. Ignore the distortions and keep the insight, just as the Zen masters advise.

There is no mistake in the Zen advice, but the way you are applying it to psychedelics is precisely backwards.

You should dismiss makyo whether you're meditating or tripping balls. And don't forget, all of physical reality is makyo. So don't forget to dismiss that while you're at it

29 minutes ago, Harikrishnan said:

@Leo Gura Which is more powerful to increase conciousness kriya yoga or Meditation

This can vary for different people.

In my view yoga is signficantly more powerful because it is a bio-chemical-mechanical change of the body-mind organism. Much moreso than meditation. Yoga leads to effortless meditation by a mechanical silencing of the mind.

[Shin]

2 hours ago, Forrest Adkins said:

Does it even make sense because its so weak?

It's only useless if you can be totally present each second of your life without ever identifying to the ego.
That would mean you would already be meditative 100% of the time.

[Nak Khid]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

The mistake you're making is confusing psychedelics with makyo. Psychedelics are precisely NOT phenomenal distortions but pure insight, deeper than the insight of Zen meditation.

 

 I think you would agree psychedelics are chemicals

and these chemicals alter the chemistry of the brain

and this causes sensory effects and changes in perception in unpredictable ways

[herghly]

@Leo Gura On this topic of psychedelics - I'm curious if you or others have read Stan Grof's latest books -  https://maps.org/psychonaut

The books seem to provide a framework for working with psychedelics.

(I did not want to start a new topic for a small question)

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

 I think you would agree psychedelics are chemicals

and these chemicals alter the chemistry of the brain

and this causes sensory effects and changes in perception in unpredictable ways

Even if that were true -- and it certainly isn't from the absolute perspective -- so what? Do you not have a brain filled with chemicals while you meditate which causes sensory effects and changes in perception in unpredictable ways?

What do you think makyo are?

Taste your own medicine.

Everything your mind thinks and sees is makyo. The Earth you think you're sitting on is makyo, and so is your brain.

[Forrest Adkins]

The question is, is it even worth it to dedicate lets say 1 hour daily to meditation if the return is so low? If the difference between 1 hour meditation and 1 hour playing video games is so small why even do it?

[allislove]

Quote

If the difference between 1 hour meditation and 1 hour playing video games is so small

That's your own belief. Investigate why is so. Where does it come from? Is it from your direct experience? I highly doubt so.

[Shin]

9 minutes ago, Forrest Adkins said:

The question is, is it even worth it to dedicate lets say 1 hour daily to meditation if the return is so low? If the difference between 1 hour meditation and 1 hour playing video games is so small why even do it?

???

Did you even try to meditate, let's say a month 1 hour everyday ?

[Leo Gura]

31 minutes ago, Forrest Adkins said:

The question is, is it even worth it to dedicate lets say 1 hour daily to meditation if the return is so low? If the difference between 1 hour meditation and 1 hour playing video games is so small why even do it?

Yes, it's worth it.

It certianly won't get you awakening, but at least it will be a gateway to more serious spiritual pursuits in years to come.

If you want a chance at awakening via meditation you will have to do at least week-long retreats where you meditate nonstop all day long, every day. Month-long retreats would be more realistically necessary.

[remember]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

And don't forget, all of physical reality is makyo. So don't forget to dismiss that while you're at it

yes i also want to dismiss that - as makyo is not a term that refers to the physical reality but rather to how you construct your reality.

no doubt that you could discuss about the comfortness or emptyness or beauty of the physical reality you create. but the same accounts for all imagination of reality.

Edited December 18, 2019 by remember

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Forrest Adkins said:

The question is, is it even worth it to dedicate lets say 1 hour daily to meditation if the return is so low? If the difference between 1 hour meditation and 1 hour playing video games is so small why even do it?

This “ego” doesn’t get anything out of meditation, meditation gets the ego out. 

The doer doesn’t care much for the stopping of it’s doing.

Effortless living, your life’s dream unfolding wonderfully, emotional mastery, no mind, non reaction, bliss...the ego see’s this stuff coming a mile away. 

“Why would I meditate”. 

Dream board’s great for realizing preferences far more worthwhile, inspiring, & satisfying than a story on a screen. 

This actual story on a screen is a pinch superior imo.

This story you’re actually creating.

[rNOW]

1 hour ago, Shin said:

It's only useless if you can be totally present each second of your life without ever identifying to the ego.
That would mean you would already be meditative 100% of the time.

This is why. True meditation isn't sitting in one place and paying attention to nothing. It's real purpose is to make you pay attention to whatever is in front of you without your thoughts interrupting you. 

[Bill W]

2 hours ago, Nak Khid said:

It depends on what you want out of it

Great post. For me, I want to discipline monkey mind and to concentrate/contemplate. 

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Even if that were true -- and it certainly isn't from the absolute perspective -- so what? Do you not have a brain filled with chemicals while you meditate which causes sensory effects and changes in perception in unpredictable ways?

What do you think makyo are?

Taste your own medicine.

Everything your mind thinks and sees is makyo. The Earth you think you're sitting on is makyo, and so is your brain.

Not saying psychedelics are not useful, I've tried them myself and they definitely cracked my perspective of reality BUT, just an observation as far as I know there are no enlightened masters or gurus, at least that I've heard about ever get an awakening through psychedelics in fact they don't condemn but they don't really advise to do it when asked. I'm talking about people I regularly listen to, mooji, sadhguru, Paul Hedderman, adyshanti etc. 

So I'm just wondering why are psychedelics talked about on here like they will definitely get you enlightened very quickly when there isn't much evidence for it and most enlightened beings advise against it? It's like a 100m sprint champion saying you need hard work, nutrition and a good coach to be a champion and another guy saying you need that but steroids as well except (in the example) no champion has won taking steroids. 

Again not attacking psychedelics, theyre very useful but I don't think they're the be all and end all or you even need them to be enlightened 

[Leo Gura]

@Consept It's not that the psychedelic will do all the work for you. It's just a way to understand reality at the highest and deepest level which would otherwise be virtually impossible.

The psychedelic will motivate you to get serious about the work. You basically won't understand half the things I say until you do some psychedelics. And then the real work can begin.

Most of those gurus became awakened by fluke luck, so it's not wise to count on that happening to you. You are not Sadhguru, so don't expect his results. You are you, so you must deal with the cards life has dealt you. Life has dealt most of you bad cards, so you will want every tool at your disposal to overcome that.

If you insist on crawling up the mountain on your belly, go for it. But you could also just take a helicopter.

[Inliytened1]

@Consept most spiritual teachers who are awakened are spiritually gifted.  So meditation didn't take them long at all - and some may have had spontaneous mystical experiences without doing anything.  Just sitting there.  So they would never look into them.  But this isn't the norm for the average Joe from what we can gather.   

[Forrest Adkins]

@Leo Gura But do you think you are the first to make this observation? Do you think sadhguru, osho, eckhart tolle and others naively assume that everybody is just like them? I honestly dont know the answer to that.

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, Forrest Adkins said:

@Leo Gura But do you think you are the first to make this observation? Do you think sadhguru, osho, eckhart tolle and others naively assume that everybody is just like them? I honestly dont know the answer to that.

No, they just skirt the issue and teach to a very mainstream audience -- whoever will listen and pay. Besides, what do you expect them to do about it? They can't recommend psychedelics because 1) they have no serious experience with them, and 2) most of their followers can't access them, and 3) they would get into trouble.

The more mainstream the teacher, the more mainstream and mild his techniques need to be.

Do you really expect Sadhguru to stand up in front of 10,000 people and tell them point blank: 99% of you will not awaken? Why would he do this? Of what benefit is this to his followers or his organization?

Also, when you are highly spiritually gifted from birth you have no idea what life is like for people who are not spiritually gifted. It is like living in a different reality. So easily many teachers can be dismissive of the struggles of newbies and normies.

You have to ask yourself, what is it you want and how badly do you want it? Do you really care to know what reality is? How important is it to you that you discover the answers in this lifetime?

See, Sadhguru's agenda is not that. He will not resolve this for you. He is busy building his organization. If you die without reaching the ultimate answers, it won't bother him one bit. But if it would bother you, then you need some sort of reliable plan for how you're going to get those answers.

[remember]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you insist on crawling up the mountain on your belly, go for it. But you could also just take a helicopter.

who was talking about crawling up a mountain? since when are humans worms? by the way if you take the helicopter it might be that you had a nice view from up the helicopter and then you sit on top of the mountain and think: no way it was so much better from the helicopter perspective as i could also see the mountain and the people who crawled up the mountain. and by the way why are they all smiling and look so proud, or much more interestin why are they marveling at that view so much as if they were seeing my helicopter - they just crawled up a mountain on their two feet - but i had a helicopter. make space it want`s to land so it can take me down again.