Can You Become Enlightened At Any Spiral Dynamics Stage?

[Saarah]

Does it matter if you're stage blue or orange or green, can people in each of these equally reach enlightenment?

or does the type of mindset that happens at each stage influence your ability

what about the stages where you have egoic focus vs other focus, where maybe in the other focus stages you're more able 

does it happen the other way around where the process of enlightenment work and mindfulness leads you to start moving through the stages and only when you're predominantly at a certain stage such as green or yellow do you become closer to the probability of enlightenment occurring?

I just watched @Quizzer video on a woman becoming enlightened and she seemed like a green hippie person so I started wondering if that influenced your likelihood and the type of people who become enlightened might be around those stages

[Mal]

@Saarah

Hi Saarah, 

Thank you for bringing this topic up.  I have a specific answer to your inquiry here:

 

[Leo Gura]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

So, yes!

But there's more to this journey than just having an enlightenment experience. There's a whole consciousness maturation process. A mind at stage Blue or Orange or Green is likely to misinterpret enlightenment and use it dogmatically.

So your aim should be to shoot for enlightenment while at the same time advancing up the Spiral stages, into Tier 2.

Yes, I used the word "should".

[JustinS]

@Leo Gura Hey Leo! I just watched your video on Spiral Dynamics. You said you've been trying to hang out with hippies more so that you can grab a greater sense of views and perspectives on the green side.

Question, 

What key insights have you gained from being around people in the Green stage?

What was it at first that you noticed about yourself when you are around these people, and how has that changed now? 

 

[99th_monkey]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Yes, I used the word "should".

LAWL

[Saarah]

@Mal thanks, I see what you mean, I can't really grasp how an enlightened person would still be functioning from below tier 2, it seems incompatible but I don't have a very deep understanding of enlightenment so I can't really say what would be compatible 

@Piotr I'll have to check it out, in my mind I think enlightenment will help banish all of our illusory belief web because we become more in touch with what is and reality so it's interesting to see it could be otherwise! 

@Leo Gura I'm still confused as to how it would be used dogmatically because I feel like enlightenment would be a way out of dogma, i don't seem to understand enlightenment very well, but definitely I'd want to be tier 2 and enlightened than otherwise, thanks! 

@99th_monkey it's LAWLS (laughing at what Leo said) ?

[Mal]

@Saarah

22 minutes ago, Saarah said:

@Mal I don't have a very deep understanding of enlightenment 

Enlightenment doesn't change anything:  You just understand that you are the divine.  If you're at blue cognition then your blue ego is the divine, along with the rest of the "blue tinted world" you see - including your projected shadow.

Shadow work only begins at 2nd tier because 2nd tier cognition is the first in our history to allow all 1st tier structures to be as they are.  However, 2nd tier does not hold the same intellectual views as 1st tier because it is integrating the shadow, so it's a kind of radically inclusive stage of development.

Once you reach 2nd tier you will see how all this is applicable and you will be able to tell instantly as soon as a self-realized person opens their mouth exactly which stage they are coming from.  

This does not mean to say they don't have valuable nuggets of wisdom to teach you, everyone holds a piece of the truth.  The litmus test is to ask the self-realized person if they agree with that statement! 

Mal

Edited June 7, 2016 by Mal

[Falk]

Life is not binary :off (unenlightend) / on (enlightened) your consciousness is not a mofokn light switch , but it would be cool right? me: "on" "off" "on" "off" ...god: "stop it! it is anyoning as F**" !  Nah im just kidding obviously this can´t happen since i don´t exist...

Ok back to topic : 

There will be enlightening experiences on your journey, there well even be moments when you think "now i understand it all" and maybe the next day you still feel awesome, but your spouse wants you to bring down the trash-can and you notice...this is still life  

It is not a journey TO "destination X" but rather... well ...a journey ..HERE! NOW! journey ... We all "should" not mix up cross experiences with sustainable self knowledge. (don´t tell leo i used the bad word ...please! ) 

PAYCE!!  

[Mal]

 

[Mal]

 

[Saarah]

@Mal I see, could you give me an example of what it would look like if an enlightened person was to express something with blue tinted cognition? 
I'll get around to checking your videos tomorrow, thanks!
@Falk That last part helped me understand the distinction a bit more with not confusing experiences with knowledge! Actually it's like when you see the same thing in two completely different ways depending on the state of mind or knowledge you're at

[Mal]

@Saarah 

1 hour ago, Saarah said:

@Mal I see, could you give me an example of what it would look like if an enlightened person was to express something with blue tinted cognition? 

Us/them dichotomies.  Most cults and their leaders are stuck at blue.

Theravada monks, Zen monks, any culture where you're pushed to follow rituals and rules without question.  

"Never lie" 

"Never break precepts" (rules)

Can't handle diversity.

Only one way of doing things and everybody else is wrong.

Basic cognition, no awareness of context, black vs. white thinking.  

Edited June 8, 2016 by Mal

[Mal]

For anybody interested here is an eye witness account of what went on with one devotee of Andrew Cohen's "Enlighten Next" Cult.

The irony is, he was endorsed as an Integral teacher by Ken Wilber himself!  Obviously Cohen has stepped down from his "Satsang Guru" job since the cult was blown open.

The main point is, that Cohen was appointed Satsang Guru by Poonjai, however it's quite clear that he became enlightened while still hosting a ton of psychological issues based in the lower 3 chakra.  Enlightenment does not solve psychological shadow problems.

 

[Saarah]

@Mal thanks that helps a lot, I always thought ego dissolving would solve everything, I guess there's more complexity to it

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, JustinS said:

@Leo Gura

Question, 

What key insights have you gained from being around people in the Green stage?

What was it at first that you noticed about yourself when you are around these people, and how has that changed now? 

 

I learned that I have a very low tolerance for fruity, new-agey community activities. Like group art projects, etc.

I learned that I'm extremely judgmental and critical of people.

I learned that I prefer to do my meditation/enlightenment work solo.

10 hours ago, Saarah said:

@Leo Gura I'm still confused as to how it would be used dogmatically because I feel like enlightenment would be a way out of dogma, i don't seem to understand enlightenment very well, but definitely I'd want to be tier 2 and enlightened than otherwise, thanks!

Well... take a look at various religious traditions. Even the few enlightened folks that occur within them are will quite dogmatic and have a limited perspective.

Hell, take a look at Zen. Very traditional and rigid, even though it produces lots of enlightened people.

Dogma is VERY tough to escape. Much harder than merely getting enlightened.

[Electron]

@Leo Gura Do you think being an irrational person is more likely to get you enlightened as you are more open to possibilities ??

[Leo Gura]

@Electron No, it's more likely to get you trapped in some ridiculous nonsense dogma.

[cetus]

@Leo Gura Wouldn't a deep experience of something much larger than self cause a jump to a higher level?                                                               

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 3:56 PM, JustinS said:

You said you've been trying to hang out with hippies more so that you can grab a greater sense of views and perspectives on the green side.

@JustinSThe hippie movement was a mass awaking by a new generation - mother earth, oneness. universal awareness. human rights. love, peace truth. no more wars, expansion of consciousness and so on.  It was a sudden awakening to a universal view for a Lot of people who were raised by a self centered and paranoid culture that had no place for an all inclusive holistic view for the benefit of the planet as a whole.  Those in the lower tier would not accept the different view that was suddenly emerging by people who realized the "status quo" was very flawed and "unhealthy for children and other living things".

Edited June 9, 2016 by cetus56

[Saarah]

@Leo Gura I just realised it makes more sense now when you said religious prophets were enlightened, even so they were still functioning from a place of law and order so they created a system i.e. religion in accordance with that

[JustinS]

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

learned that I have a very low tolerance for fruity, new-agey community activities. Like group art projects, etc.

I learned that I'm extremely judgmental and critical of people.

I learned that I prefer to do my meditation/enlightenment work solo.

@Leo Gura What has helped me was going to large events/festivals/gatherings such as Burning Man, Symbiosis Gathering, Lightning in the Bottle, Tribal Gathering, etc. (all of which bring in different types of new-agers and hippies). I got into the whole "scene" because of the similar taste in music (psychedelic, down-tempo, trance,...) and transitioned quite easily and made amazing friends that are "sort of" on the path to self actualization. At first, I was pretty annoyed with the nonstop saging, alters, crystals, incense, slow talking, but I slowly became comfortable with it. A bit of mushrooms wouldn't hurt either, especially if that rational mind is still strong from the Blue stage. You'd be surprised of the different types/groups of hippies, they aren't all alike. If you need some hippie friends, let me know haha! 

As far as meditation/enlightenment work, this is not the place for me also. Most do too much drugs, and not much self awareness. 

Finding what you have in common and exploring that with each other is a great way. Dancing with music at underground parties in the middle of the desert is mine.