Did TYT Sell Out?

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv Why don't they disclose the way in which Russia was/is trying to interfere?

[Preety_India]

There is absolutely no truth to the whole Russian interference at all. The United states oath doesn't prove anything at all. 

Consider this. 

Nancy Pelosi makes no sense. She has been working on the impeachment for 2 and half years if that was true, then Trump would have been impeached already. 

It's a sham.

Trump seems to be doing good already. He is showing good indicators for 2020. Rest is fake news. 

And the Russian thing is a hoax. Same like the moon landing 

The whistle blower wrote a false report. 

It's an embarrassment 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Preety_India

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Bno said:

 Is it for the same reasons that they lied to the public about the Iraq War? 

I did not say that US intelligence agencies are completely pure. You seem to be creating "either / or" conflicts of opposing forces. It's more complex than that and there are nuances.

For example, intelligence agencies tried to communicate that the evidence indicated that Iraq did not have WMDs and were mostly complying. Yet this got manipulated through political filters in order to advance a political agenda of going to war with Iraq. 

5 minutes ago, Bno said:

They have interests in propping up their own agendas and the military industrial complex.

Of course. Yet you are oversimplifying and deleting nuances. Of course that is a major factors in certain contexts. Yet in other contexts it's a very small factor. You are painting with a large brush. 

6 minutes ago, Bno said:

What about the DNC interfering in the 2016 and 2018 primaries, of which there is actual evidence for?

Of course that is an issue for progressives. You keep setting this up as two polar extremes. 

8 minutes ago, Bno said:

Yet they prop up people like Warren who did not endorse Sanders in 2016 because she was having talks of being Hillary's VP, has think tanks that her daughter is tied to funding things like the working families party to endorse her over Sanders, who said will receive corporate money in the general election, etc. It is them who create division by not being honest or objective.

Most progressives rank Bernie as # 1 and Warren a distant #2. This includes TYT, seder, emma, The Hill etc. They all   rank Bernie #1 and Warren a distant #2. They have criticized Warren plenty, yet they won't devour her. If the general election was between Bernie and Warren they would come down much harder on Warren. HOWEVER, its not the general election. The general election is against Trump, who is orders of magnitude worse than either Bernie or Warren. And Warren has a shot at winning the the nomination and general. It makes sense to criticize her and try to pull her further progressive, yet it does not make sense to destroy her and empower Trump. . . This is one of my concerns with progressives. We are eating each other alive and the net effect is empowering Trump.

Bernie, Warren, Tulsi and Yang are all MUCH better than Trump. 

16 minutes ago, Bno said:

You aren't in the position of providing news to the public like they are. 

So what. That's not my point. Regardless of the platform you seem to be using litmus tests and your own personal filter to decide what qualifies as a "real progressive". I think eating our own is a big mistake. 

In the big picture, I think TYT is doing a lot of good work. They are Green, trying to lift up Blue and Orange. I also have some concerns about TYT. Yet I would consider them part of the team and be about 80% supportive and 20% critical. For corporate democrats, I would be about 40% supportive and 60% critical, for Trumpers about 5% supportive and 95% critical. To me, I think it's a mistake to become hyper-focused in progressivism and hyper-criticize fellow progressives. It is tempting, yet it is harmful in the bigger progressive picture, imo. Yet you are free to disagree. 

[Forestluv]

19 minutes ago, Bno said:

@Serotoninluv Why don't they disclose the way in which Russia was/is trying to interfere?

I've engaged with you on this before. From my POV, it is like engaging in a conspiracy theory about the moon landing. It's just not a good use of time. 

[Bno]

3 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

And the Russian thing is a hoax. Same like the moon landing

I wouldn't equate these two. Not saying if the moonlanding happened or not in the 60s, but it makes us look like conspiracy theorists.

With Russiagate, we are giving everyone here objective information about it and making a point to be skeptical. Saying something happened without providing evidence like what the intelligence agency, MSM, and corporate Democrats are doing makes them the conspiracy theorists.

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

There is absolutely no truth to the whole Russian interference at all. The United states oath doesn't prove anything at all. 

And the Russian thing is a hoax. Same like the moon landing 

The whistle blower wrote a false report. 

You seem to have ventured into moon landing conspiracy territory. That's a place I don't have interest in exploring. 

[Bno]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I've engaged with you on this before. From my POV, it is like engaging in a conspiracy theory about the moon landing. It's just not a good use of time. 

So just take their word for it like we did when they said Iraq had WMDs?

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, Bno said:

So just take their word for it like we did when they said Iraq had WMDs?

No. That's not what I'm saying at all. 

To me, you don't seem open to listening, considering and learning from another perspective - which is fine. You seem to be in a debate mode of defending a perspective and being right - rather than exploring and evolving. Ime, a small amount of debate, opposition and challenge can help evolution - yet too much becomes counter-productive and keeps a mind in a contracted state. 

[Preety_India]

11 minutes ago, Bno said:

I wouldn't equate these two. Not saying if the moonlanding happened or not in the 60s, but it makes us look like conspiracy theorists.

With Russiagate, we are giving everyone here objective information about it and making a point to be skeptical. Saying something happened without providing evidence like what the intelligence agency, MSM, and corporate Democrats are doing makes them the conspiracy theorists.

I think I was misunderstood. I didn't mean Moon landing was a hoax. I should have said moon landing conspiracy is a hoax. 

My bad. 

Yea you are right about the invalidity of the msm, corporations and intelligence agencies. They cannot prove it objectively 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Preety_India

[Bno]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I did not say that US intelligence agencies are completely pure. You seem to be creating "either / or" conflicts of opposing forces. It's more complex than that and there are nuances.

Their agendas need to be considered as nuances too. The intelligence community is interested in power. They also gain from creating manufactured consent for war and increasing the military budget. Corporate Democrats are funded by the military industrial complex, fossil fuel industry, and wall street and they also want to save face from losing to the most beatable guy for President. 

9 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Of course that is an issue for progressives. You keep setting this up as two polar extremes. 

It just seems like you put the supposed Russian interference ahead of this.

11 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Most progressives rank Bernie as # 1 and Warren a distant #2. This includes TYT, seder, emma, The Hill etc. They all   rank Bernie #1 and Warren a distant #2. They have criticized Warren plenty, yet they won't devour her. If the general election was between Bernie and Warren they would come down much harder on Warren. HOWEVER, its not the general election. The general election is against Trump, who is orders of magnitude worse than either Bernie or Warren. And Warren has a shot at winning the the nomination and general. It makes sense to criticize her and try to pull her further progressive, yet it does not make sense to destroy her and empower Trump. . . This is one of my concerns with progressives. We are eating each other alive and the net effect is empowering Trump.

The Hill (Krystal and Sagaar) do not have Warren as a distant #2. TYT, sedar, and emma have corporate influence and I recommend watching the video to get more info on that. Warren is harmful to the progressive movement because she will not fight for the economic issues that actually matter to the majority of people like getting M4A, out of these regime change wars, completely ending student debt, and completely ending fossil fuel emissions. Criticizing her is not empowering Trump, her having one foot in the establishment is empowering to Trump. Her faults give him ammo and we must bring it to light before he does. Her voting record on war and recently her vote on giving Trump more military power and increasing the military budget also gives him ammo.

17 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

In the big picture, I think TYT is doing a lot of good work. They are Green, trying to lift up Blue and Orange. I also have some concerns about TYT. Yet I would consider them part of the team and be about 80% supportive and 20% critical. For corporate democrats, I would be about 40% supportive and 60% critical, for Trumpers about 5% supportive and 95% critical. To me, I think it's a mistake to become hyper-focused in progressivism and hyper-criticize fellow progressives. It is tempting, yet it is harmful in the bigger progressive picture, imo. Yet you are free to disagree. 

That's great, consider them part of the team. I am just saying to be weary of them. 

[Bno]

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

No. That's not what I'm saying at all. 

To me, you don't seem open to listening, considering and learning from another perspective - which is fine. You seem to be in a debate mode of defending a perspective and being right - rather than exploring and evolving. Ime, a small amount of debate, opposition and challenge can help evolution - yet too much becomes counter-productive and keeps a mind in a contracted state. 

I hear you on how people in high positions agree that Russia may have interfered. They probably did. At the same time, it's fishy that they do not want to disclose how they did it and how effective that supposed interference was.

[Forestluv]

@Bno I agree with much if what you say and share many off your concerns. We have more similarities than differences.  

I think we have different communication styles and orientations - and are talking past each other at times. 

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Bno said:

Would you say the same if Bernie Sanders received money from corporations?

Bernie Sanders is not a business. TYT is a business & a corporation! Oh the hypocrisy! You might say.

But of course business is not an absolute evil. Actualized.org is technically a corporation, don't forget

Quote

Do you think some of TYT's beliefs may be swayed by the people who are funding them, as we see happens to MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News? 

To some extent, probably.

But this is always the case. You think Bernie Sanders is not swayed by his grass-roots volunteers? Just the other day Bernie Sanders was forced, by this upset volunteers, to un-endorse Cenk. Bernie was forced into a politically correct position due to reasons of image, not substance.

Quote

Do you think a multi-million dollar company like TYT needs donations from Hillary donors to deliver news? They survived for a while before 2016 from just grassroots funding. Others like Secular Talk, Jimmy Dore, MCSC Netowrks, Tim Black, and The Grayzone are doing fine without millions of corporate dollars.

TYT is a much bigger organization than all those one-man YouTubers. TYT has like 50+ employees. A lot of mouths to feed. As they grow they will become more corporate.

All of these issues are far too deep to be avoided through some simplistic approach like "Corporations are evil." The devil cannot be cast out so easily precisely because the devil is you. Survival forces all of us to sell out to some extent.

[Apparition of Jack]

@Bno With all due respect, and feel free to accept or deny my observations as you wish, but from what I've seen you say here I get the gut feeling you may still be dealing with some degree of a Blue/Orange shadow. This is perfectly fine, we are all at the level of development we need to be at right now, but if you're serious about Green progressivism then it may help you to think about facing and integrating these Blue/Orange aspects of your psyche, so that you become more clued in on and more effective in harnessing the dynamics of the Green progressive movement, IMO.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Apparition of Jack

[remember]

 they recived a donnation after they took a political position... is that false? not before... it is of course interesting how independent their position is afterwards. but i just had a short look into how their position is towards contemporary politics in turkey and am relieved that the donations seem to not come from there. in some of  the cases in todays turkey policy in other countries that is what`s happening. so if they are supported by democrats, might be there is some kind of coalition but maybe it`s not that intertwined from tyt side as some people want to read into it. seems like they don`t have it that easy. receiving a donation just means they are backed up by someone. the relevance who that is might play a roll in some cases but in some other cases it might be a little much interpretation outside the symbolic character. maybe the donnation supported them to stay independent.

just try to simultaneously have a look what happened in turkey in 2016.

Edited December 16, 2019 by remember

[Bno]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Bernie Sanders is not a business. TYT is a business & a corporation! Oh the hypocrisy! You might say.

But of course business is not an absolute evil. Actualized.org is technically a corporation, don't forget

I acknowledge that they have done some good, but that shouldn't take away from some of the concerns that I have with them.

I'm not just looking at it in a black and white perspective. I know there are nuances with corporations and some are more good than others, but let's look at this systemically: what are the agendas of the types of corporations donating to TYT. They have interests in Hillary and other centrist Democrats. They know that Hillary and other centrists get crushed by Bernie Sanders among people 35 and under. This is like an environmental awareness group receiving donations from fossil fuel companies and then you notice their platform change from "all fossil fuel emissions are bad for the environment" to "fracking is ok, we can keep some fossil fuel emissions."

You can't claim to be anti-mainstream, but then tout mainstream narratives like saying the DNC lawsuit is silly and that Russiagate is real.

So I'm not saying that just because a corporation is donating to them that this is bad, if it was actualized.org or a green energy company, there's no need to be concerned. Actualized.org has interests in promoting more conscious politics, so that can be a good thing!

But $20 million from Jeffrey Katzenberg, there has to be some strong attached there. TYT is too hyperfocused on Trump and not critical enough on the corporate Democrats that give him more power. They even prop up several of these establishment Democrats that have given Trump more power.

After they received the 20 million from a Hillary Clinton surrogate the first time, their subscriber numbers started to plummet. Other progressive channel's subscriber numbers and patreons went up at the same time, though. People weren't buying TYT's "blue no matter who" narrative after Bernie got screwed over by the DNC. They weren't buying the Russiagate narrative, people knew there was a systematic reason for Trump winning which included people being upset with 8 years of neoliberalism under Obama who pretended to be progressive.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

TYT is a much bigger organization than all those one-man YouTubers. TYT has like 50+ employees. A lot of mouths to feed. As they grow they will become more corporate.

All of these issues are far too deep to be avoided through some simplistic approach like "Corporations are evil." The devil cannot be cast out so easily precisely because the devil is you. Survival forces all of us to sell out to some extent.

I understand that they need money to feed mouths, but again does that money have to come from the TYPES of corporations they're supposed to be fighting against? And then you look at the type of people who they fired or who left, it was people who went against some of the mainstream narratives TYT was reiterating:

Noamiki Konst was fired after she successfully fought against superdelegates and sharing views against the Russiagate narrative.

Jimmy Dore left after he saw no self reflection within TYT after they got Russiagate wrong. Instead, TYT continued to double down on it.

Jordan Chariton got fired for other reasons, but he expressed that when TYT said they needed money for more resources and journalists, when they got the money they didn't spend a single penny on more journalists or resources to help Jordan. They instead used the money to hire people like Emma Vigilante whose parents have ties to corporations that donate to neoliberal politicians. They also hire other people that have ties to neoliberal corporations. The video goes into detail on these hirings.

Michael Tracy also left after continuously pushing against TYT's mainstream media narratives.

There were other firings that happened, and most of them were people that disagreed on Russiagate. And then TYT hires centrists that have ties to neoliberal corporations.

The 20 million from the Hillary surrogates also ended up hurting their subscriber and membership numbers. And instead of self reflection, they double down and continue to have ties with these surrogates and have agencies that represent them that also represent millionaires from MSM, Hollywood actors, and neoliberal politicians.

Is it a coincidence that all these people represented by the same agencies demonize Tulsi Gabbard? TYT even goes as far as to exclude Tulsi's name from polls. Tulsi who has adamantly said she is not afraid of the intelligence community, she will tax the rich, end fossil fuel emissions, and end corporate interest regime change wars.

https://medium.com/@RobletoFire/tulsi-gabbard-has-enemies-in-high-places-6fa7da05284

These donors expect something. TYT propping up Warren and getting this fake idea that she is just as good as Bernie to their viewers is an investment for them because they know Warren will not go nearly as hard on the 1% as Bernie will. They know Warren is weak on foreign policy and healthcare. These corporations will continue to profit under a Warren presidency as they did under an Obama presidency. They also profit off of TYT's spreading of the "blue no matter who" narrative. This is my systemic view of the problem with TYT.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But this is always the case. You think Bernie Sanders is not swayed by his grass-roots volunteers? Just the other day Bernie Sanders was forced, by this upset volunteers, to un-endorse Cenk. Bernie was forced into a politically correct position due to reasons of image, not substance.

At least Bernie's intentions here were to serve the interest of the people, not rich Hillary surrogates.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Bno

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv Sorry lol

[Leo Gura]

@Bno Look, dude, you are too wrapped up in this. Just drop it and do some consciousness work.

This fighting is all ultimately survival nonsense.

The solution here is to go meta.

[remember]

@Bno well, it`s difficult, as on a global scale they are quite progressive in their standpoint towards turkey policy, but even how they understand what`s happening there,  they might be not that progressive in us-american policy from a progressive view. also ending all regime changing wars is a joke like asking all people to stop eating meat - it`s just impossible. maybe that`s why... stay open or you will be the only one who understands anything in the end. don`t conentrate too much on the vegetarians - meatarians are the bigger problem.

Edited December 16, 2019 by remember

[Bno]

@Leo Gura Will do! I'm excited to read the new set of books I just got from your booklist.

My goal here was just to inform people on something they might not have known, to promote weariness about our new sources, and then maybe learn something I wasn't seeing. As you pointed out, this probably all is just survival nonsense.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Bno