Not This... Not That...

[Raptorsin7]

Why do gurus always claim that they can't actually point to the non-dual nature of reality. They always say whatever you think it is... that's not it. They say they can't actually show you it, they can only point you in it's direction. Can someone elaborate on this problem. What is it about non-dual awareness that makes it so difficult to point out.

How can the non-dual teaching be ever present, and yet no one can actually point to it directly?

[Inliytened1]

@Raptorsin7 because its nothing.

[Raptorsin7]

@Inliytened1 not helpful (:

[silene]

Hi @Raptorsin7  I'm a bit confused here. 

"gurus always claim that they can't actually point to the non-dual nature of reality."

"They say they can't actually show you it, they can only point you in it's direction. "

So can they point to it or not?

You're already immersed in reality. Or part of reality. You don't need to point to reality, it's everywhere (including the pointing finger). It's the "you" which they can't point to, which thinks it's separate from reality.  At least that's my interpretation. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by silene

[Raptorsin7]

@silene They can't point to IT, IT being the non-dual nature of reality (I think). They can only sort of nudge you along until you realize it for yourself. That makes sense, but I'm still confused as to what exactly i'm looking for here. Sometimes I think i get it, but then i just get lost in thought again and i'm confused.

[Forestluv]

21 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Why do gurus always claim that they can't actually point to the non-dual nature of reality.

Because every thing is within Everything. Tell me one thing not within Everything. . . 

Everything contains all contradictions.

Everything contains any statement I make, the opposite of any statement I make and every variation possible of the statement I make. 

 

[Inliytened1]

@Raptorsin7 ? 

Well Truth is prior to thought or language - its rockbottom.  You can only be it as Being is prior to knowing.  Rockbottom is formless as it must be infinite to hold all form within it... its the fabric.  And with reality the fabric is literally nothing.  So when you think of Truth, that is a thought, which is form.   The thought itself (form) is held within formlessness.  

So you can't get to formlessness with form..its already inside it.  You have to have a mystical shift and become formlessness.

 

[Raptorsin7]

@Inliytened1 But what does the experience of formlessness feel like? I can sit here and just feel, and it feels different than my typical lost in thought all day type of living, but how do I know if this is it. How do i know when i actually get it vs when i'm deluding myself

[Raptorsin7]

@Serotoninluv But then what is there to get. If everything is within everything then i'm just stuck in a loop of looking for something that i'm never going to find. But even if there's nothing to get because everything in reality is just arising from formlessness then how come you seem to get it and I don't. Clearly you guys know something about my experience that i don't. That's what i'm trying to figure out. What am i missing here that seems so obvious to everyone else?

[Inliytened1]

@Raptorsin7 oh man....i can't even describe it..but trust me, you'll know (paradoxically lol)

 

[Higher]

6 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Raptorsin7 ? 

Well Truth is prior to thought or language - its rockbottom.  You can only be it as Being is prior to knowing.  Rockbottom is formless as it must be infinite to hold all form within it... its the fabric.  And within reality the fabric is literally nothing.  So when you think of Truth, that is a thought, which is form.   The thought itself (form) is held within formlessness.  

 

This. ?

[Inliytened1]

7 hours ago, silene said:

Hi @Raptorsin7  I'm a bit confused here. 

"gurus always claim that they can't actually point to the non-dual nature of reality."

"They say they can't actually show you it, they can only point you in it's direction. "

So can they point to it or not?

 

You can point at it meaning you can hint around at it.  

Yes, its the self reference problem.   Reality is one singularity - thus everything it tries to point at itself with is already itself....   It just has to realize it IS itself.

That moment of realization is enlightenment.  That's Being.

 

[silene]

@Inliytened1  Thanks, that makes sense, I just don't follow gurus (or at least anyone who calls themself a guru) so I'm not up on what they claim. 

I can try to describe what happens to me. It's like I flip over from my 'normal' dualistic framework of me the observer, feeling the feelings in my mind (or hearing sounds, seeing sights etc). To there being no me, no observer, no mind, the feelings are awareness, the observer is the observed, the sounds are pure awareness. To say there is no mind is the same as saying that everything is mind.  Then pop, back comes the me. When I think about it (like now), I'm still in duality because I'm trying to remember what it's like. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by silene

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, silene said:

@Inliytened1  

I can try to describe what happens to me. It's like I flip over from my 'normal' dualistic framework of me the observer, feeling the feelings in my mind (or hearing sounds, seeing sights etc). To there being no me, no observer, no mind, the feelings are awareness, the observer is the observed, the sounds are pure awareness. To say there is no mind is the same as saying that everything is mind.  Then pop, back comes the me. When I think about it (like now), I'm still in duality because I'm trying to remember what it's like. 

Yep that's it man :)?❤  

Have you sighted the Ox?

[Forestluv]

54 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Serotoninluv But then what is there to get. If everything is within everything then i'm just stuck in a loop of looking for something that i'm never going to find. 

The human mind is conditioned to think there is something to find, something to attain, someplace to arrive. Realizing the opposite of that is a facet of awakening. There is nothing to find or attain. There is no place to arrive. That is a major realization. . . Yet then the mind will create a new duality and grasp the other side - it will get attached to the belief there is nothing to find, attain or arrive. We can let go of that as well. . . Then there is nothing, something and everything. 

The realization of Nothing/Everything is a major facet of awakening. To me, it sounds like you have enough conceptual understanding. The concepts can only take a person so far, because any concept (and its opposite) is Nothing/Everything. For the mind to hold a thought / imagine - there must be separation. That thought / image is not another thought / image. This is why direct experience is key.

This awakening allows for liberation. This awareness seeks nothing. This awareness is beholden to nothing. This awareness is attached/identified to nothing. It is absolute freedom.

54 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Serotoninluv But even if there's nothing to get because everything in reality is just arising from formlessness then how come you seem to get it and I don't. 

Because you are creating things called "me", "you" and an "it" to get. That is relatively true. You've got the separation part down, no need to work anymore on that. Absolute Unity hasn't been revealed yet in direct experience. 

Thoughts / images are appearances, yet they are very tricky appearances. They are alluring and mesmerizing. Yet they are appearances in Now similar to dog barks appearing Now.

For me, a key is not to trap my mind into thinking I need to choose between two opposites. Thoughts / images have no more relevance than any other appearances Now. Yet they also have more relevance than other happenings. A deep insight into the nature of reality has no more relevance than a bumble bee in flight and it also has more relevance than a bumble bee in flight. Awareness of Nothing/Everything has no attachment to either. It is free!

54 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Serotoninluv That's what i'm trying to figure out. What am i missing here that seems so obvious to everyone else?

The figuring can be helpful to form a framework of support. For example, imagine someone has direct experience of Nothing/Everything. Afterwards, they are like "whoa, what just happened?". Without any conceptual support, it is easy for the person to dismiss it as "woo woo, airy fairy stuff". With a conceptual framework its more like "whoooaaa, so that's what those awakened ones were talking about all those years. . . ". 

In terms of my personal story, there was a time I felt like there was something deeper I wasn't getting. At times, there would be a still small voice of "your not listening". And I'm like "I'm trying to listen. I'm meditating. I'm participating in a Sangha. I'm journaling. I'm doing Yoga. wtf else am I suppose to do to 'listen'". It got really frustrating. . . I was really curious what this "it" is. I didn't care if it would benefit me or not. It was like something in a safe and I wanted to figure out the lock combination to see what's in the safe. . . What resonated with me was psychedelics. I tried them a few times solo and they revealed so much. Then I went to an Ayahuasca retreat in Peru. At the personal level, each person is different and and have unique pre-dispositions, abilities and resonance. Personally, I sucked at meditation and "just being". I was so analytical and thinking dominated, that I missed all the tiny gaps and glimpses. Others resonate much better with meditation and just being. I've walked in nature with newbies and they are pretty good at getting in tune with Now. It's just how they are.

Regarding it being so obvious. . . One thing I remind myself is that "it's paranormal until it's not paranormal". What seems obvious now was mind-blowing during the realization. "what just happened??!!". Yet once it sinks in, it seems pretty obvious. It's remembering something I already knew. 

@silene After having nondual experience, it's very common to feel like there is a "flipping" between nondual and dual realities. That is a relative human perception / experience. I often feel that way. It's beautiful and can feel amazing and fun. I can even start to influence it - drifting off into a nondual reality. This can also be transcended such that nondual = dual and imagined = real. 

  

[WelcometoReality]

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Why do gurus always claim that they can't actually point to the non-dual nature of reality. They always say whatever you think it is... that's not it. They say they can't actually show you it, they can only point you in it's direction. Can someone elaborate on this problem. What is it about non-dual awareness that makes it so difficult to point out.

How can the non-dual teaching be ever present, and yet no one can actually point to it directly?

Every word is a pointer to something. The word car for example. Perhaps a picture popped into your mind?

That's because your mind knows what a car is. It can relate the word car to the actual thing.

Now take the words Infinity, nothingness and non dual awareness. What is being pointed to here? Whatever these words point to is prior to the mind. The mind does not experience it but it experiences the mind. And yet the mind is used to describe it. And the mind is used understand the description.

[silene]

@Inliytened1  more likely just the footprints   I wish there was a more 21st century version of the Oxherding pictures, or jhanas etc for today's postmodern world. 

[Key Elements]

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Why do gurus always claim that they can't actually point to the non-dual nature of reality. They always say whatever you think it is... that's not it. They say they can't actually show you it, they can only point you in it's direction. Can someone elaborate on this problem. What is it about non-dual awareness that makes it so difficult to point out.

How can the non-dual teaching be ever present, and yet no one can actually point to it directly?

I bet they want you to go on the journey to live life to the fullest--whatever that means to you, and however you discover it with an open mind. Why wait for enlightenment to happen and forget about living life? Why go out of balance? Maslow's is also a pointer. Self-transendance is classified at the top. Do you actually want to go straight to the top? That may not be the journey for you. There is such thing as karma, although it's not the absolute. It can be subtle and profound. And also, the absolute is not spoken in words. You will not know how it's like to be absolute unless you've experienced it. All words are only pointers.

[Raptorsin7]

@Key Elements I'm going right to the top. I'm ready, my life has never been lighter then it is right now. It's only going to get harder to accept and integrate the older I get. I have no kids, no partner, nothing i'm really afraid of losing besides dying I guess. This is it. I'm going all in.

[SoonHei]

@Raptorsin7 why it cannot be pointed to is kind of like how the eyes cannot see themselves or teeth cannot chew themselves or a scale cannot weigh itself.

 

Can you tell me why teeth cannot chew themselves? Or why eyes cannot see themselves?

Can you?

No! You can't really explain that to someone... It needs to be understood/seen to be the case... That why teeth cannot chew themselves or eyes not seem themselves...

 

Same way. It can't directly be explained/pointed to... 

And if some words are to be used... It is because non-dual truth is you! 

The guru is none other than you! And You cannot point to yourself just as the eye cannot see itself. Or a finger point at itself... You can only BE / KNOW you.

 

So the guru (self) tells you (also self) that i cannot point at myself

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by SoonHei