Weakness in a man

[Parththakkar12]

When a man says 'I have been abused by women as a whole in XYZ ways. This is why I'm going MGTOW.' or something like that, why is it always dismissed as whining/weakness? When everyone you've met is playing zero-sum games with you/emotionally abusing you, going MGTOW could also be a healthy decision, can't it? There's a hypocrisy here : When a man abuses a woman, it's on the man, but when a woman abuses a man, it's still on the fucking man! There seems to be a lack of acknowledgement of the agency of women and the vulnerability of men here. It's like 'A real man can dig a well in the middle of the desert' without noticing that finding water in there is next to impossible!

[Preety_India]

I think this a matter of perception and validation. 

If someone doesn't support your worldview it doesn't make it right or wrong. 

Understand that everything is relative. So if it's relative to you, it's completely fine, it doesn't need to be absolute for you to feel validated in what you do. In fact you should not even look for validation in the first place.

Its called "stop caring what people think" 

Maybe what they think applies in whatever cases they refer to and not to yours.. 

You're entitled to your opinion absolutely. If you think that's a path for you ultimately then nobody is stopping you other than yourself and you don't need a green signal from people to begin walking on that path.. 

Your experiences are your own and people feel entitled to judge but it's up to you to  allow that judgment to impact you. 

I think you just want to be honest to yourself and most people who tell you otherwise are probably guilt tripping out of their own selfish needs. 

You're absolutely not wrong in asserting what your needs are or how you feel. 

I think people's resistance emerges from a fear based mentality because they think that a certain behavior will become the next social trend and they will have to succumb to it and they don't want to do that so they turn to suppressing your opinions by deeming it as weakness or unconsciously Gaslighting you. Men have a strong sexual need so to convince a man will take a lot. Most men wouldn't want it subconsciously so they are going to guilt trip you as much as they can because they want the game as long as they aren't losing. If they can dominate they will. They will change the game if they don't get what they want. You on the other hand are just being honest and simple and not wanting any part of it. You are just being authentic 

That's how rebellion begins. There is always a starting point, a point where a person authentically goes against a system and then everyone follows. But to start it, you need courage to go against social beliefs and challenge them.  One person can inspire another. 

You need to stick to your beliefs and not worry about what people think because they have their own selfish agenda why they won't want to support your belief. 

Do what suits you. If you think MGTOW helps you then do that. Social perceptions are not going to change because you think they are wrong. 

It's like telling people to grow up but if they don't want to grow up, you can't help it. 

 

[Parththakkar12]

46 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

In fact you should not even look for validation in the first place.

Its called "stop caring what people think" 

I'd rather care about what people think and why, thanks!

[Spiral]

People aren’t exactly celebrating when girls/women decide to “quit men”.

In addition isn’t it sexist to assume girls/women are going to treat you poorly just because one girl did? There are bad peoples out there sure, some of them are guys some are girls. However it’s up to you to find the kind and suitable ones.

On other thing I’ve noticed is that, even thought you say you walked away from women/girls MGTOWs usually complain a lot about women. Why? 

[Parththakkar12]

39 minutes ago, Spiral said:

In addition isn’t it sexist to assume girls/women are going to treat you poorly just because one girl did?

I'm gonna assume whatever I want. I (or anyone) don't have to be politically correct in my beliefs! #ThePowerOfMGTOW

 

39 minutes ago, Spiral said:

On other thing I’ve noticed is that, even thought you say you walked away from women/girls MGTOWs usually complain a lot about women. Why? 

I'm not saying I'm going MGTOW, nor am I justifying/advocating for anything an individual person/group of people does. Chances are they're seeking validation for the pain of the abuses they've been through.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Parththakkar12

[Spiral]

46 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I'm gonna assume whatever I want. I (or anyone) don't have to be politically correct in my beliefs! #ThePowerOfMGTOW.

Yeah of course you can be politically incorrect and assume whatever you want. You can also believe the earth is flat if that makes sense to you. From my point of view a MGTOW is similar to someone who thinks all food is evil because it made them fat. Now of course you need food and not women to survive but in essence it’s the same mentality.

One reason people are less empathetic when men are victims of let’s say greedy women are that had the picked that women before things backfired on them.  Not not mention usually activly persuaded her. Like a divorce mess were he loses unreasonably large amounts of money. The guy is responsable for who he chooses to marry and the conditions. If a girl is sexually harassed on the street she had little choice in the matter. If she gets into a relationship with someone who is clearly physically abusive from the gecko people tend to be less empathetic.

[Parththakkar12]

I guess we gonna stay MGTOW then till we find empathetic people who care about men! Being empathetic doesn't mean though that you pick sides and demonize 'greedy women'. It's one of those 'Change my mind' situations where I'm open to my mind getting changed. Only time will tell how that's gonna happen! Not having empathy and assuming separation is included in emotional abuse btw. That causes suffering as it denies the reality that we're all one on an emotional level.

[Preety_India]

Are you demonizing all women? 

What does we mean? Who are 'we'? 

That's funny because you only represent yourself. 

Who doesn't have empathy? 

What's your justification or premise for picking MGTOW? 

I feel like you're going around in circles 

 

 

[Parththakkar12]

42 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Are you demonizing all women? 

Actually yes. It's been a subconscious belief the whole time, and I'm not at the point in my healing process where I want to question it. I wish I could be more PC, but this is the reality. It's not demonization per se, rather it's a paralyzing fear of having a woman be responsible for my emotional well-being. This fear is backed by negative beliefs about women as a whole.

42 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

What does we mean? Who are 'we'? 

By 'we' I mean myself!!

42 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Who doesn't have empathy? 

What's your justification or premise for picking MGTOW? 

I don't have a rational justification tbh, It felt more empowering to the part of me which has felt abused and emotionally neglected by women as a whole.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

10 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

There's a hypocrisy here : When a man abuses a woman, it's on the man, but when a woman abuses a man, it's still on the fucking man! There seems to be a lack of acknowledgement of the agency of women and the vulnerability of men here.

Below are some ideas about this. They are not directed at anyone one person.

I would first ask myself: Am I actually concerned about the social dynamics of gender and abuse? Or am I more concerned that I feel personally neglected, rejected and disrespected by women? These are two very different orientations. For example, I may be in a healthy relationship and curious about social gender dynamics. Perhaps I am writing a psychology term paper on it. This is a very different orientation than if I have gone through a series of dates in which I was feeling rejected, neglected, disrespected and abused by women. These are two very very different filters. 

Integrating individual and societal levels:

The above frame has an equality on one level, yet extrapolates it to to equalize an inequality on another level. For example, we could say it is equally wrong if a woman or a man is raped. At the individual level, we can say rape is wrong whether it was a woman or man that was raped. Regardless of gender, rape can be traumatic and leave wounds and scars that need healing. The person often needs help and assistance from others to work through it. This it at the individual level and does not necessarily extrapolate to the bigger picture level.

At the individual level, there are abusive power dynamics between two individuals. At the population level, there are new power dynamics that must be considered. At the population level, the vast majority of people raped are women. At this level, it doesn't make sense to complain that the vast majority of rape kits and support services for rape are oriented toward women. This is also true for domestic violence. I volunteered in an institution that offered support for domestic violence victims. The vast majority (about 95%) were women. These are the social dynamics. In general, men are more aggressive and social structures favor men - giving them certain privileges. In general, women enduring domestic violence abuse have a much more difficult time leaving the abuse. For example, men overall have higher paying jobs and women can find themselves in relationships in which there is financial dependence - especially when children are involved. The woman may have spent years raising the children and never received education and skill development. Her income potential is much lower and divorce courts generally favor men financially. As well, inequalities in gender power dynamics can allow a man to get away with a lot. For example, abusive behavior can be dismissed as "it was just boys being boys" (see Brett Kavanaugh). There are huge advantages for men at the societal level. 

At the personal level:

One may say "Well, I'm not talking about rape of physical violence, I'm talking about other kinds of abuse". Here, personal filters can cloud one's vision. If a woman neglects or rejects me, I may feel hurt. I may say "I've been abused". The personal perception is that "I have been abused". Yet is this really "abuse?" or is it something for the person to work through? In one respect, there is genuine hurt for which we can have compassion. Yet in another respect, labeling it as "abuse" makes it really easy to fall into a victim mentality trap. Part of the victim mentality trap is to overstate a situation, generalize it and then identify with the larger group. For example, if I feel like I've been neglected and hurt by women I may overstate this as "abuse", I can then generalize it (Women abuse men. How about us men that are abused? Why aren't we getting any attention and love?). I can now avoid personal introspection and direct the attention toward women. I can then identify within a larger male group that identifies as being abused by women. I can then join a group like MGTOW - this will reinforce my self image. It deepens the trap. Blaming women, seeing myself as abused and immersing myself with men that reinforce my beliefs and image are all factors that will make personal introspection and growth very difficult. I will keep attracting that type of energy into my life. 

At a personal level, I've observed a tendency to flip from one extreme to the other. For example, I may blame women for my hurt / frustrations and then flip to the opposite extreme and blame myself. "Well, if it's not women's fault, it must be my fault. I'm just not good enough. I'll never attract a woman and be in a healthy relationship". This is also a trap that will prevent growth. There are other orientations that allow space for development and growth. 

 

[bejapuskas]

@Parththakkar12  You can achieve such level of emotional maturity that you'll realize that the only person who is abusing you emotionally is you. I mean, many people are low consciousness and abusive, but if you spend time with those people and get affected by them so easily, it also says something about you... There are many wonderful, interesting, loving people out there, you can just stop spending time with most others and still have a social life  Have some respect to yourself.

[Parththakkar12]

@bejapuskas I don't believe in self-blame. It feels a lot more empowering to put the blame where it belongs and have other people correct what they're doing to me first. Then we think about giving someone a chance. Until then, we're gonna go on our merry way!

You guys don't know how much power there is in being able to say, 'Fuck everyone! I'm just gonna go my way.' No narcissism, no blaming, just access to leverage power in relationships. The person who can walk away from relationships has the most power in them! This is essentially innoculation from ever settling for less in a relationship.

If MGTOW really is an authentic decision, you won't feel a need to whine and complain about women! You'll just be on your merry way. For the people who whine and complain, it may not really be an authentic decision. You can make this decision without feeling any negativity towards women.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

26 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

 It feels a lot more empowering to put the blame where it belongs and have other people correct what they're doing to me first. 

You guys don't know how much power there is in being able to say, 'Fuck everyone! I'm just gonna go my way.' No narcissism, no blaming, just access to leverage power in relationships. 

For me, playing these power games caused a lot of personal suffering for many years. 

Yet if it's working for you, go for it. 

[Parththakkar12]

@Serotoninluv If you're playing the power game to beat the other person, then yeah it will cause suffering. However, if you just have power which makes you untouchable, i.e. you won't settle for abusive relationships as a result of it, then that's a great thing! Power is a tool that can be used as you want to use it.

For me, I think gaining power will work as long as I feel short of it.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@Serotoninluv However, if you just have power which makes you untouchable

I've tried that too and it caused me a different type of personal suffering. Personal power causes me personal suffering. It's not the power part, it's the personal part that causes the suffering. 

Yet it seems to be working for you and that's great. 

[Parththakkar12]

By untouchable I meant nobody will be able to take advantage of your powerlessness, i.e. manipulative tactics won't work on you.

What kind of suffering are you talking about? Is it loneliness?

[bejapuskas]

@Parththakkar12  Why do you then have to care so much about this social stuff when you have so much power in you?

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

By untouchable I meant nobody will be able to take advantage of your powerlessness, i.e. manipulative tactics won't work on you.

What kind of suffering are you talking about? Is it loneliness?

To me, this is a game of separate personalities. She will not take advantage of me. This helps protect my self, yet the protection comes at a cost. It is more difficult to transcend the personalities and enter a union of us. . . The prevailing dynamics will be "me" and "her". It is a mindset of "My" wants/needs and "her" wants/needs. There are pros and cons to that. The pro is that it reduces the chance of "me" getting taken advantage of. The con is that it increases the chance that the relationship will lack depth and meaning. There is too much fear, self-centeredness and protectionism. That is unsatisfying to me. Personally, I want to experience the deepest levels of love and joy. And that means opening myself up to the deepest levels of sorrow. 

Yet it sounds like it's working for you. I'm not trying to change your mind. This is just my personal experience. 

[Parththakkar12]

@bejapuskas The power comes in the context of relationships, not independence! We're not trying to be independent here, rather we're trying to have the inherent upper hand in relationships. The power lies in the social stuff.

[Parththakkar12]

@Serotoninluv I understand you're not trying to contradict me. I'm not trying to contradict you either. I'm comparing and contrasting your context with mine and trying to understand your situation too.

Out of curiosity, what do you want your relationship to be about? What I mean by that is, what do you mean when you say deep meaningful connection?

Edited December 13, 2019 by Parththakkar12