Leo's views on morality are really pissing me off.

[Forestluv]

@Nak Khid Is unconditional love good?

[remember]

regarding buddhism, there is a reason why these terms are bound to the buddhist philosophy. unconditional love does not mean there are no boundaries, no rules - you can bend the spoon as much as you want, there are rules to it and how you intereprete the bending of the spoon is either coherent to the essence of the teaching or not. depending on how you intereprete unconditional love it might be heaven (nirvana) or hell (samsara). there is a reason why truth=love but even unconditional truth can be suffering. unconditional in that sense can only be the commitment and compassion we put into finding out what love a situation needs. saying no does not mean that love is bound to a condition, creating limits and boundaries sets conditions but does it mean that it conditions love. or is love and condition not separate? conditional love would mean something like if you do this or that, i stop loving you - unconditional love means what ever you do i`ll love you. it does not mean i have to accept everything or never disagree. disagreeing can be the highest form of love, especially if the disagreeing part is more farsighted and the other person is self-harming. self-harm is not self-love. self-love is a self-healing property not a self-destruction property. although people often fall into the trap of loving themselfs self-harmingly.

Edited December 11, 2019 by remember

[Nak Khid]

^ yes well done

[remember]

@Nak Khid are we in school? i was just thinking i maybe need to add some more...

[Nak Khid]

1 minute ago, remember said:

@Nak Khid are we in school?

yes

[Scholar]

Sometimes the way you guys try to teach others feels very brute force. It's like a math teacher trying to teach calculus to a first grader.

 

The mind which cannot carry Truth will not be able to accept it. To tell Truth to the smaller mind means to give the Devil the greatest gift. Taking the spark of God, carrying it into the depths of the Devil's Den. You do not reveal the spark of God to the Devil, for the Devil will tremble in terror and flee.

 

Do not pluck the plant into the ground and expect a new one to grow. First, nourish the plant, see it grow tall and strong in the aid of the sun and the rain. Then, wait patiently for it to give you seeds, for only then you will be able to grow a whole new plant.

 

 

The egg must first become the chick, the chick must then become the bird and the bird must then learn to fly.

You are expecting the egg to fly.

 

A small mind needs nourishment. It requires appropriate challenge to grow. The master does not need words to teach, as words are the way of the Devil. Instead, a true master simply acts lovingly, for an Act of Love is something even the Devil will be hard pressed to deny. To be among an Act of Love is nourishment for the smaller mind.

Love is patient. Watch the way of the Divine. Billions upon billions of years. Have you ever seen the Divine stress out over Enlightenment? Have you seen the Divine reject the corruption of the Greatest Teachings?

Of course not, for Divine is wise beyond all measure. Itnourishes the egg, an act of Love. It let's the chick stumble into the world, an act of Love. It watches the chick grow into a bird, an act of Love. It finally sees the bird fly, or fall to the ground, an act of Love.

There is no rushing to the end. To give the Devil the Truth in word is to throw the egg and expect it to fly.

 

@Serotoninluv

Observe very carefully the path you have taken. Watch the very footprints which you have taken to arrive at where you are. Realize that one step must be taken after another. A thousand small steps are worth more than one great jump.

Study the workings of the Divine. Do you see "Love!" written on the trees? The teachings of the Divine are far more wise. The speech of Truth is the most primitive, not the most advanced. When the Divine speaks to us, it does so without our knowledge that it is the Divine. It tickles us, it nudges us. There is but a mere subtle breeze. And look how far that breeze has gotten us. From creatures who crawl among the mud, to creatures which explore the great Mind of the Divine.

The Divine has taught us simply by being present. By being present to the fullest degree possible. It let's us be the child so that we one day we could be the adult. It saw the beauty in our primitive state, as it knew that it was that very state which would allows us to outgrow it.

 

When you speak to a child, you speak to it in the language of the child. You do not force it to understand the language of the adults. For the child must first be a child to ever outgrow itself. When you do this right, the child might grow curious, and one day it will seek the language of the adults all by itself.

 

Don't make the mistake of trying to teach all the children, when you have yet to learn to teach the one child infront of you. A child needs much attention, a child needs Love.

Watch the attention and presence the Divine has given you. It was without end, it gave you All of it. There was not a moment in your life in which it has abandoned you. This is what allowed you to grow, this is what allowed the egg to become the flying bird.

 

True attention, true compassion, true understanding. What happens when we speak to the child in the language of adult?

[remember]

2 minutes ago, Scholar said:

A small mind needs nourishment. It requires appropriate challenge to grow. The master does not need words to teach, as words are the way of the Devil. Instead, a true master simply acts lovingly, for an Act of Love is something even the Devil will be hard pressed to deny. To be among an Act of Love is nourishment for the smaller mind.

ah ok - let`s say you didn`t use words.

[Leo Gura]

@Scholar I get your point, but to play devil's advocate, what happens when you tell the child sweet lies and treat him as a child?

You would have us debase truth to suit ignorant devils? Well, then you get religion.

[Shin]

Imagine your daughter has been abducted.
Now you're 99.9% sure you know the guy who did it.
Will you be a good and moral citizen, or will you abduct that guy, torture him, until he tells you where your daughter is ?

You would think you're in your right to torture that person in that particular position.
Even though you can't be totally sure, and never will.

Even if you were sure, it would still be you doing the exact same thing that guy has done to your daughter.
This is "evil" perpetuating itself, and everybody does that to some degree (99.99% of the planet would torture that guy).

So saying the Chinese are morally wrong, is the same as saying that everybody on the planet is "evil", we just do it on a smaller scale, and if we could, we would do the exact same thing that they do, given the same upbringing and mental state as they are.

We do actually way worse in the US or in EU, it's just biased and not published in the news.

Everyone is the devil in disguise, and the sole fact that you are upset about this, means you would do the same, because only a dense ego can be upset about something.

You would do the same thing, if you get that, then you won't be able to do that kinds of thing in the long run.
It's because we think we can't that we do, the devil always thinks he's an angel, otherwise he would have to admit he's the devil.
But since the devil is also God, as soon as he recognize he's being a devil, he stops gradually to be one, and can never go back.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Shin

[Scholar]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Scholar I get your point, but to play devil's advocate, what happens when you tell the child sweet lies and treat him as a child?

You would have us debase truth to suit ignorant devils? Well, then you get religion.

When a child is told a lie, you can teach it the way to discover the lie for itself. Otherwise, what will become of the child if it were to simply belief your story about the lie?

I think there is a deeper dynamic going on. The desperate attempt of avoid the formation of religion might be misguided. Religion will form one way or the other, the minds which form religion can do so from any place they want. I don't feel like this is mere devirly, I think this is intentional, it is contributing to the workings of the greater dynamics.

 

I would simply surrender my teachings, for the uncorruptable spark among corruption is a thing of beauty. Imagine if the teachings of Chirst, of Buddha, of Teotl would have not formed religions? Would you have ever heard of them? And what other teachings would have formed religions?

Religion allowed a spark of the Divine to tremble throughout history, throughout civilizations, throughout all kinds of people. It allowed for those who seek the spark to find it. It allowed for the uncorruptable among the corrupted.

 

In my view this as Divine WIsdom,

 

The child, whether you want to or not, cannot help but hear a lie even when you speak the truth. There is no point in rushing the development of the child, or to protect it desperately from corruption. All you can do is give proper guidance, a guidance which is appropriate for the child.

If you look at the workings of the Divine, can you not see it's ultimate patience and compassion? It does not seem like it is fearful of creating religions, or avoiding corruption. In a way it does even encourage it. In the end it knows that the uncorruptable cannot be corrupted.

There is always a balance to be found. I don't think our teachings are in our control. They flow with the currents of the world, corruption is inevitable. I don't see the point in avoiding it. When the teachings come from a place of Love, compassion and understanding, I think it does not matter where they end up.

 

The teachings of Chirst are like water, they have adapted to it's surroundings. This was completely out of Chirst's control. The water took the form of it's environment because it is water.

This is how the water survives, it is why water is indestructable. You cannot destroy water, you can merely change it's expression.

[Forestluv]

@Scholar You make make a really good point. Within this context, simplicity, subtleness, small steps and development over time are key features. At a personal level, I may often neglect this wand in favor of other wands. That is where wisdom comes in. Perhaps the appearance of your words is a gentle nudging for me. A gentle nudging that I may be off-balance and should give some attention to the wand of simplicity, subtleness, small steps and development.

As profound as this is, it is one point. The point is a "somewhere", it is no longer nowhere/everywhere. Again, I reiterate this in the strongest terms: that somewhere is very profound. . . . yet, as a somewhere it does not capture all somewheres. As I go on. . .  I am not saying that I disagree with you, that you are wrong, or that I am offering a "higher conscious" view. I've made the point you make many times in many different contexts. Yet there is more (not "higher" or "better"). This is not about opposing views. 

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

 

@Serotoninluv

Observe very carefully the path you have taken. Watch the very footprints which you have taken to arrive at where you are. Realize that one step must be taken after another. A thousand small steps are worth more than one great jump.

This frame includes: 1) a path with a destination points of arrival, 2) a timeline, 3) a "you" that has taken a path over time. This is a very useful frame and approach. Yet, it is not other useful frames and approaches. Again, this is not to contradict you as right/wrong, better/worse. Truth is full of contradictions. In this case, there is a path and there is also no path. I have taken a path and I have not taken a path.  As well, there is a "me" that has taken this path and there is no "me" that has taken a path.

It is also true that these constructs of paths, timelines and "me" don't exist. They are merely appearances happening Now and have no more significance than bird chirps. Just as the frame you offered has immense value, this other frame offered here also has immense value. When one fully realizes this frame, all attachment/identification dissolves and Nowhere/Nothing/Everywhere/Everything is revealed. This is very easy to observe at a personal level by asking "How comfortable am I holding the opposite of everything I said as true? How comfortable am I letting go of everything I wrote as if they were bird chirps? How comfortable am I discarding everything I wrote as if it is was totally wrong?". This is a good barometer for the awakening of the pathless Nowhere/Nothing/Everywhere/Everything awakening. Here, there is no "path", no "destination" and no "arrival". This is one of the key awakenings. It has immense transcendent and liberation value. 

* every thing written above is both true and false. 

[Scholar]

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Scholar You make make a really good point. Within this context, simplicity, subtleness, small steps and development over time are key features. At a personal level, I may often neglect this wand in favor of other wands. That is where wisdom comes in. Perhaps the appearance of your words is a gentle nudging you speak of. A gentle nudging for me to give some attention to the wand of simplicity, subtleness, small steps and development.

Importantly, I am not disagreeing with you. I've been both a student and teacher my entire life and have contemplated what you have written many times. I see immense value in what you are saying. 

You all could probably sense a "but. . .. " is coming along and here it is. . . You have offered one point. That point is a "somewhere", it is no longer nowhere/everywhere. Again, I reiterate this in the strongest terms: that somewhere is very profound. And as a somewhere it does not capture all somewheres. As I go on. . .  I am not saying that I disagree with you, that you are wrong, that I am offering a "higher conscious" view. I've made the point you make many times in many different contexts. Yet there is more (not "higher" or "better"). This is not about opposing views. 

This has frame has three components: 1) a path with a destination, 2) a timeline, 3) a "you" that has taken a path over time. This is a very useful frame and approach. And it is not other useful frames and approaches. Again, this is not to contradict you as right/wrong, better/worse. Truth is full of contradictions. In this case, there is a path and there is also no path. I have taken a path and I have not taken a path. Similarly, there is a developmental path taken over time and there is not a developmental path taken over time. As well, there is a "me" that has taken this path and there is no "me" that has taken a path. It is also true that these constructs of paths, timelines and "me" don't exist. They are merely appearances happening Now and have no more significance than bird chirps. Just as the frame you offered has immense value, this frame also has immense value. When one fully recognizes this, all attachment/identification dissolves and Nowhere/Nothing/Everywhere/Everything can be revealed. This is very easy to observe at a personal level by asking "How comfortable am I holding the opposite of everything I said as true? How comfortable am I letting go of everything I wrote as if they were bird chirps? How comfortable am I discarding everything I wrote as if it is was totally wrong?". This is a good barometer for the awakening of the pathless Nowhere/Nothing/Everywhere/Everything. Here, there is no "path", no "destination" and no "arrival". This is one of the key awakenings.  

Yes. The chirping of the bird can be the chirping of the dinosaur:

A bird is not just frantic and cute, it is also a patient dinosaur swimming through the air.

[Forestluv]

31 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Yes. The chirping of the bird can be the chirping of the dinosaur:

A bird is not just frantic and cute, it is also a patient dinosaur swimming through the air.

This point is beautiful and profound. Yet it misses another point (which is no more or less beautiful and profound).

I appreciate your insights. They are a gentle nudge that is helpful to me. Thank you. 

[SgtPepper]

Unconditional love is Good!

Ah, so only the devil notices good and evil?

Nonetheless, if we are trying to maximize Self-love, or help devils realize they are God, and we point out how we're being devils. Doesn't this point to there being an evil?

I do not see how letting people be devil's is Self-love and telling people they are acting evil could be a form of self-love?

Torturing a kidnapper is another form of Self-love, so that you may save the innocent person.

It's like we have to play devil to increase Self-love.

Definitely a paradox for me. Reconciling good and evil with non-duality is tough!

@Scholar That's an awesome take on religion. I agree!

[Matt8800]

On 12/8/2019 at 10:25 PM, Sizeable Oof said:

In his recent video, Leo said Chinese oppression of the Uighurs/Muslims is "neither good nor bad";

And that the fact China is responsible for mass production of various goods at cheap prices,

demonstrates how morally judging the actions of the CCP is "not black and white" (paraphrasing here).

 

NOW, China could mass produce products without this oppression and horrible mistreatment to The Uighur Nation.

Why is it so hard to say what they're doing is evil? Why when you are walking on the spiritual path you have to become so tolerate, that you would even tolerate the worst actions mankind is doing.

Morality cannot be completely undermined, if you try to do this, it will lead you to absurd views like these. I wonder how Leo would feel if his own family would've been victimized by the CCP.

edit: also "people wanna reunite bathrooms after they've been divided for thousands of years" LMAO yes we all remember the famous ancient seperated bathrooms discovered in archeological excavations. This video's by far the one most filled with inaccuracies and mistakes. SAD.

@Sizeable Oof Its all perspective and depending on the "perceiver". To a family of spiders, an arachnophobe that kills spiders is evil indeed. The spider would ask, "Why is it so hard to say what they're doing is evil?" 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Matt8800

[Harikrishnan]

I was reading a article on  genocide that happend arround Nellie a crop field in Assam (India) in early 80's  4000-10000 peoples where bruttaly killed. Bangladesh muslims where killed so as not to enter and mix with assames tribe. Narrator description of what happened there made me loose my sleep (article was in my native language and i dont know if i could express the terror fully). One man who escaped genocide said They came praising Assame Ma (Godess of assam) with swords and fired the entire field where muslims where living. They chased womens and kids first, I ran with my two kids, my youngest son tied behind my back, they where behind us with swords and i ran fast as i could and fell in the wall, i looked at my son who was tied in back and his head was split open by the sword and blood everywhere. He was dead i gave him to God and droped his body in water and when i crawled back up i could hear my elder son cry being stabbed by sword outside. (It felt like i was there witnessing everything, i dont know whether i was one among who ran for life or one who was with sword running arround killing)

This is one of the incident written in the article made me loose my sense of being a human(and there are many more). 

I dont have any morality, i dont think its right or wrong.i dont have any hate towards one who did this crime, i can easily love and accept them. But i cannot escape the pain i am having for things like this happening.

What the fields Remember.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Harikrishnan

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Harikrishnan said:

 i cannot escape the pain i am having for things like this happening.

That pain is Love and the one experiencing that pain is Love. 

[Nak Khid]

 

Leo Gura, remarks on China
from Division vs Unity video  Dec 8, 2019

30,171 views (on 12/12/19)

43:23

it's not that simple the devil is all in the details and then we're we're politics and economics gets really screwed up is

when people adopt these simplistic ideologies thinking that they understand how to build a great society without

realizing this very delicate interplay between division and unity which is happening all the time not just in

society but you know society is just one instance of a much larger pattern that we're talking about here how about

China's treatment of Muslim minorities and the Tibetans.
China is trying to build a unified civilization in the hopes of achieving
that they're willing to go to great lengths they're building a massive

surveillance state their citizens are not able to participate and
vote in many ways we might say that China is sort of

going towards that extreme of overall a collectivist overly
trampling on individual rights.
You know they don't respect religious minorities.
They're doing terrible things with their Muslim minorities

they're sending him into indoctrination camps reeducation camps basically

concentration camps treating them terribly you know the stuff they
did to the Tibetans quite terrible as well

various crackdowns they're doing in Hong Kong also problematic.

You know but from their point of view, what is China doing
all this for?  Are they evil? ls that what they're doing?
 Of course not.  China is actually doing it out of love. Love of course is unity, reunion. 
Another word for reunion
is love so from the Chinese perspective they're doing this because
it's important for them to become a superpower in the world.

They spent a lot of time in poverty they have

over a billion of people most of whom weren't who were in poverty or you know

just as recently as fifty years ago and so they need to do a lot of rapid development and they have been doing

that and in many ways they're they're outpacing Americans and they're gonna be the biggest nation in the world.

They're gonna be the biggest superpower in the world pretty soon they're gonna be the biggest economy
in the world pretty soon and so they're emerging as a world superpower and from their point of view that's more important than maintaining

individual religious rights see now I'm not justifying what they're doing I'm not saying that what they're doing is

good or bad there are trade-offs you see the mistake is to look at the China situation to see oh the Chinese are so

evil because they don't respect privacy and they're bad to the Tibetans and they're bad to the Muslims no it's a

mixed bag there are certain things that the Chinese are doing which are very problematic and there are certain things

that our Chinese are doing it which are great which are helping the whole world

you know they have  giant manufacturing centers that allow for the production of most of the world's

products at cheap prices which enables you to enjoy the luxury that you enjoy here in America you see so while you're

sitting here simplemindedly criticizing the Chinese you're simultaneously not realizing how much

you're benefiting from what China's has been doing over the last 50 years. See so this isn't about judgment or

criticism of anybody it's about realizing that there's something much

larger going on in the universe here consciousness is going through a process of polarization and depolarization

division and reunion it's not about good and bad it just is what it is before you judge it understand what it is that

you're judging understand how complex and sophisticated it is understand that all of your stupid little ideologies

whatever they are are utterly inadequate to explain and to understand and to navigate what's coming in the future.
You know the Roman Empire is a great example of division and reunification there were

many different individual city-states all across the Mediterranean the Roman Empire came to power they dominated all

the way up to Britain all the way down to Spain and even into Africa and into Egypt and all this they dominate all

this land and all the way out to Persia all the way into Germany but then they got too big the Roman Empire was so

massive that then started to decay it was hard to keep that order and that giant monopoly on the Mediterranean

intact and so slowly the other nations and tribes started to pick them off from the sides there was internal corruption

internal division and then it all fell apart and then it reunited 2,000 years.

______________________________________________________________

 

Here is the quote from the above that the thread starter refers to

 

"They're doing terrible things with their Muslim minorities
they're sending him into indoctrination camps reeducation camps basically
concentration camps treating them terribly you know the stuff they
did to the Tibetans quite terrible as well
various crackdowns they're doing in Hong Kong also problematic.
You know but from their point of view, what is China doing
all this for?  Are they evil? ls that what they're doing?
 Of course not.  China is actually doing it out of love. Love of course is unity, reunion. 
Another word for reunion
is love so from the Chinese perspective they're doing this because
it's important for them to become a superpower in the world. "

 

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Nak Khid

[Nak Khid]

 So what Leo is saying analogously  is that Hitler commissioning the the killing of Jews, Romani (gypsies) and others he did out of love for his country from his perceptive, so we shouldn't judge

Accordingly "Infinite Love" means acceptance of everything

Similarly a serial killler or child rapist  loves what they do

Edited December 13, 2019 by Nak Khid

[Harikrishnan]

10 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

 So what Leo is saying analogously  is that Hitler commissioning the the killing of Jews, Romani (gypsies) and others he did out of love for his country from his perceptive, so we shouldn't judge

Accordingly "Infinite Love" means acceptance of everything

Similarly a serial killler or child rapist  loves what they do

I actually realized what leo said a couple of moments ago. It felt like my heart was mealting with pain.