Another Critique on Actualized.org

[Raptorsin7]

@Leo Gura Very nice breakdown. Thanks.

[Harikrishnan]

Its really interesting leo's and electrobeam dp looks same. I wonder what that could be ?

[Nak Khid]

52 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Leo Gura When people accuse gurus of mistreatment, abuse, etc. Are the gurus engaging in the behavior because they think it will help the person improve spiritually, or are they consciously and maliciously abusing people even though they know it's wrong.

There is some sick shit gurus could do to you which could ultimately be good for you because it causes so much suffering.

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It all depends. There are many possibilities:

1) The guru is just an abusive asshole and a fake.

2) The guru is somewhat awakened but still full of egoic impurities, not having finished his development and mastery.

3) The guru genuinely believes he's helping his students. Maybe he is helping, maybe not. This can vary.

4) The guru is genuinely helping his students but his students take it personally, have an ego-backlash, and project a lot of their own shit on the guru. In this case the guru is totally fine, but the student is just not capable of handling the teachings. The student is in over his head and lashes out at the guru.

5) The accusations are exaggerated or entirely false. The student may misunderstand what the guru was doing.

6) There may simply be a misalignment between the guru's style and the student's style. Which could easily be solved by finding a different guru without disparaging the old guru.

All the above can happen. Rarely are things black and white. Rarely is a guru a total fake.

But like Sadhguru you have never studied with a guru,  correct?

[Nak Khid]

6 hours ago, electroBeam said:

 its not right for me anymore, so now after 3-5 years, I'm finally leaving, to go find a 'boring' teacher that just wants to enjoy life, and doesn't take spirituality too seriously. 

 

Are you looking for one in person?

[Lento]

@electroBeam

I sense a lot of bias in your criticism, even though you make some good points.

At the very least, I would say this critique is not coming from below, like other naive critiques.

[mandyjw]

Enlightenment is where the concern with taking spirituality too seriously or not serious enough goes to die. Love just is. It is not something we have to take seriously or avoid taking too seriously. You do not have to leave one teaching for another, right now I have so many teachers I'm utterly in love with, it's lucky for me that I don't have more time in the day for it all. Because as you said, real life is where the work is really done. I highly suggest Abraham Hicks, she sounds like what you're describing in what you want. Don't pick just one teacher, if you do don't stick with them too long. Every teacher is presenting you with one side of the story, and you are the thing that resolves and combines all the paradoxes in peace and love. Good luck. 

[Nickyy]

@electroBeam I think calling others contribution "projection" is counter productive. If I just use the label projection to dismiss a perspective I don't like, I am ignoring or not aware yet of the fact that every perspective is partial, even my own. You dismiss a lot of important information when you call something only a projection, 

7 hours ago, electroBeam said:

The elitist beliefs have had an impact on the way the forum works. Moderator's views are appreciated and taken seriously much more than non moderator's views, because moderators are 'high conscious' while everyone else is 'low conscious'. Followers have an urge to be Right (I don't need examples for this, surely). Because if they are not Right, they will be deemed by others as being 'low conscious', inferior, not as intelligent, not on the same page and are below everyone, below in spiral dynamics, etc. Which means egos are afraid of getting low self esteem if they are disapproved by the others (especially moderators) on here. 

I've noticed this. There is always going to be this problem because people are primates and its natural to look for authority and the follow that authority.

The way to deal with that is just be aware of it and learn critical thinking skills. To expand, I don't read many mods contributions because I've noticed mods subtely switching personas after being given mods privelages. That to me says that they are wearing their little mod hat and their advice is being filtered through that, so it's a status game and the information is corrupted by that. It's a shame because they have a lot of insight, but they are mods which means they are always going to be watching what they say.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Nickyy

[Nickyy]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not quite true. Some teachers and gurus are genuinely abusive, ill-informed, or corrupt.

You do have to pick your teachers carefully. The wrong teacher could seriously screw you up. But just having the right teacher is also not sufficient because there are so many ways you could screw up and mis-apply the teachings.

It's wise to cross-reference teachers and teachings to make sure you cover all possible blindspots and biases.

Transcend and include teachers. Holistic research. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Nak Khid said:

But like Sadhguru you have never studied with a guru,  correct?

I study 100s of sources and do my own thing.

I have no interest in being loyal to anyone.

[Commodent]

Leo is amazingly good at convincing people that his way is the right way, so I can empathize with those who are led to believe that. In one way I think it can spur amazing growth as it has a tendency to kick people out of their complacency. In another way I see how people can easily become too attached to his teachings, which might prevent them from finding their own truth. So it can certainly be a double-edged sword.

The fact that Leo is so convincing does in my view make it a great opportunity to in fact find your inner truth. A final boss, if you may.

[Nahm]

@electroBeam

Glad to hear you’re taking up meditation. You’re gonna love the benefits & enhancements to your living. Godspeed man. ??

[Dan502]

People in general are amazingly good at convincing themselves of all kinds of things.

I like to think Leo sets out to share insights passionately rather than trying to convince people of things.

I guess it's possible that despite his best intentions, some people will still convince themselves of things. Me included, I'm sure.

Fortunately, the videos are peppered with caveats and warnings not to become convinced but to try things for ourselves.

By including such warnings, Leo is communicating responsibly.

[seeking_brilliance]

There's always talk on here about Leo's 'followers' just parroting everything he says, and blah blah blah.   Even if this is true, surely you realize that this is a normal evolution of things. Hell, we evolved as a species because of our incredible ability to parrot everything we see. 

This is going to happen on this forum and there's no way of stopping it. But blaming certain figures in authority here is completely unbased and a disservice to yourself.  Take the teachings and apply them. Don't worry about who's right or wrong, just follow your intuition.  The parrots on here will be fine.  Their intuition will work things out for themselves as well.  

I do feel you on the elitism. I don't think it's intentional, and is probably mostly (or completely) illusionary seeing that the only one hurt is the ego who wasnt given the attention it thinks it deserves. 

 

[roar]

This:

2) The guru is somewhat awakened but still full of egoic impurities, not having finished his development and mastery.

Not:

4) The guru is genuinely helping his students but his students take it personally, have an ego-backlash, and project a lot of their own shit on the guru. In this case the guru is totally fine, but the student is just not capable of handling the teachings. The student is in over his head and lashes out at the guru.

 

Actualized.org is in dire need of a serious zen bitch slap.  Most of you guys are still kids in this day and age.  But the forum is a great resource for studying millennial cult behavior. 

[Nickyy]

14 minutes ago, roar said:

This:

2) The guru is somewhat awakened but still full of egoic impurities, not having finished his development and mastery.

Not:

4) The guru is genuinely helping his students but his students take it personally, have an ego-backlash, and project a lot of their own shit on the guru. In this case the guru is totally fine, but the student is just not capable of handling the teachings. The student is in over his head and lashes out at the guru.

It's both. Teachers need to learn from the student just as much as the student needs to learn from the teacher. 

Careful observation will show you this is true.

[MAYA EL]

9 hours ago, Preety_India said:

There is nothing like a teacher or even a cult. Because nobody teaches you or tries to teach you anything since you are an adult. 

So you can't place blame. Every place on this planet is always going to have stuff you won't agree with. It's a matter of semantics. Everyone cannot be pleased at the same time. You are expecting perfection which is a fault. The word cult only applies if you are forced to do something against your will. Groupthink is a real phenomenon and its expected for people who think similar to have a common bondage or institution and people who don't chime on the same frequency to feel left out. This is how groupthink tanks work. That's not a definition of a cult. 

Let's not undermine how much of a great resource Actualized org really is instead of focusing on things you don't like about it. Because just because you don't like does not mean others are in the same boat. Maybe they like what you don't like. Nobody can talk in absolutes. The one way to beat around this is to simply take in things that you resonate with and leave out things you do not resonate with .

You cannot expect a system to run by your preference. It never works like that. Because if everyone had their preferences lined up, it will be impossible to find common ground. 

I'd suggest that if something doesn't chime with you, leave it out, you have no obligation or guilt to follow it. You aren't missing out on anything . Look outside and beyond but learn to integrate what you find outside with what you learn here and make your own salad. There will always be something to complain even about it teachers. 

Understand that what you learn here is just a paradigm out of many paradigms and not the absolute. 

No need to be fixated on this paradigm and get disoriented.

 

Got this from google I'd say Leo fits a few of the criteria 

>>>>noun

a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers:the physical fitness cult.

the object of such devotion.

a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

the members of such a religion or sect.

any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific<<<

[How to be wise]

Leo's teachings are too advanced for most of you to fathom.  How about you guys try and directly experience what he's telling you. If you're not interested in deep deep nonduality then you should probably stop watching his videos and go do something else. But please don't criticise him when you have no direct experience to back you up. 

[skywords]

Excellent points for discussion!

Have you tried talking, say, person to person on the phone, to one of the moderators?

I'd like to do that, myself, and I'm wondering whether you could give me a tip on how to make that happen.

Again:  great points for discussion.  I'd like to add that I have an alternative paradigm that, IMO, "transcends" the dualisms you refer to, in Leo's discourse.  You may find occasion to discuss this alternative paradigm with me:

It's the replacement of the jargon word, "AWARENESS," along with "stages of awareness," with

ENGAGEMENT or INTERACTIVE ENGAGEMENT

I suggest that since the jargon term, "ENLIGHTENMENT," is dualistic and paradoxical, yet central to the Whole Of Leo's Coaching Narrative, and since it is predicated on the pantheistic recognition that "Everything/One Is God," one can preserve Pantheism, while sublating (or subsuming, or incorporating, or synthesizing, or integrating) dualism, "right/wrong," "black/white thinking" ~ and replacing it with, let's say, for now, might I suggest, "DEGREES OF OUR ENGAGEMENT WITH EACH OTHER."

Are you interested in pursuing this thread?  If so, let me know, and we can more fully ENGAGE.

 

Again:  Love Your Observations!
 

    

Edited December 7, 2019 by skywords

[Lento]

1 hour ago, How to be wise said:

Leo's teachings are too advanced for most of you to fathom.  How about you guys try and directly experience what he's telling you. If you're not interested in deep deep nonduality then you should probably stop watching his videos and go do something else. But please don't criticise him when you have no direct experience to back you up. 

LMAO ?

[Bill W]

1 hour ago, How to be wise said:

How about you guys try and directly experience what he's telling you. 

Not disagreeing with the sentiments of your post. I agree, it's worth trying to experience something directly than to rely on hearsay.

However, this talk of direct experience, as if it is the Gold Standard. Direct experience has to be processed by the mind first. Your so called "direct experience" will have been modified in an instant to reflect your individual beliefs and expectations. Direct experience is subject to huge in-built bias that you cannot escape. It doesn't make direct experience worthless or not valuable, but equally, something isn't of high value just because it's "direct" experience.