Isn't weird that you can never prove there are other human beings/perspectives?

[Javfly33]

Since I started doing spiritual work, one fear in form of thought started to arise and become strong during the last year. Not strong that it started to fuck with my reality. I haven't gone that deep yet. More in the conceptual sense.

Strong in the way that I started to be very skeptic about what spirituality preached. That we are one. If we are one why I have a particular perspective and I can't get out of it.

I'm sure I'm missing something.

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Javfly33

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

If we are one why I have a particular perspective and I can't get out of it.

Because you are creating a "particular perspective" that is separate. There is nothing wrong with that, it comes in handy when navigating life. Yet what is there prior to the creation of a separate thing called "my perspective". Prior to thinking "this is my perspective", what is there? There is simply what is happening. There may be sounds, smells, bird chirps, thoughts and feelings. It's all simply ISness happening. The mind creates a narrative of a thing called a perspective and becomes attached/identified - it becomes my perspective. 

Humans often seek to defend, change or get rid of a perspective. For example, someone may have the rotten perspective of their parents and ask "I can I improve my perspective". This is still within identification. The person seeks to "upgrade" from a rotten perspective to a healthier perspective. Nothing wrong with that - it can be very helpful to the mind and body.

Rather than trying to improve the content of a perspective, what if we observe the attachment/identification to any perspective? Of course the ego won't like this, because the ego is all about attachment/identification to my perspective. What happens if we let go of all attachment/identification such that it is no longer my perspective? Now, the perspective is simply an appearance and there is no me to take ownership of it. When sounds of bird chirps arise, there is nothing to take ownership of it. There is no "my" bird chirps. There is no "I am bird chirps". If the bird chirps are annoying there is no "I am annoying bird chirps".  If the bird chirps are beautiful, there is no "I am beautiful bird chirps". . . . Similarly, thoughts and images can appear just like bird chirps with no "me" taking ownership of it.

Yet the ego will strongly rebel, for this would be the death of the ego. The ego is dependent to the identification to perspective as "mine". The ego will become attached to this egoic identification. Without the attachment/identification, there are simply appearances happening now. Yet this isn't what the ego desires and seeks. 

Regarding "can't get out of it". There can be dissolution of attachment/identification, which is a form of liberation. Yet, One can't get out of ISness. There is no escape from that. One cannot escape One. Now cannot escape Now. 

[Nahm]

@Javfly33

“Isn't it weird that you can never prove there are other human beings/perspectives?”

No, this assumes yours is. It is not. No worries on the ‘I’m the only person’  front, you’re not a person.  

[Javfly33]

3 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Javfly33

“Isn't it weird that you can never prove there are other human beings/perspectives?”

No, this assumes yours is. It is not. No worries on the ‘I’m the only person’  front, you’re not a person.  

But I'm reality experiencing a human mind. Right?

If right now there are tree in front of me, I am experiencing the tree. Experience is all there is therefore I am the tree.

However somebody in Africa now is sungazing and this experience is not experiencing sungazing therefore I'm not absolute.

I can't get out of concept even after so much work . But thank you in a very love way for all of your insights ?

[Javfly33]

@Serotoninluv beatiful thank you too. The last paragraph impacted my heart strongly.

[Inliytened1]

You can actually shift consciousness to universal Mind or universal perspective - which is all things.  Abide in non-dual awareness. 

You can not look through @Serotoninluvs eyes and have all of his memories because then you would stop being you and you would be him.  That's what it means to be finite.

 

[Javfly33]

37 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

You can actually shift consciousness to universal Mind or universal perspective - which is all things.  Abide in non-dual awareness. 

You can not look through @Serotoninluv

How?

[ActualizedDavid]

58 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

How?

SNAP! ⚡️

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

But I'm reality experiencing a human mind. Right?

If right now there are tree in front of me, I am experiencing the tree. Experience is all there is therefore I am the tree.

However somebody in Africa now is sungazing and this experience is not experiencing sungazing therefore I'm not absolute.

I can't get out of concept even after so much work . But thank you in a very love way for all of your insights ?

You can do it. It is less, not more. It is uncovering the actuality, not adding abstraction (thoughts). If you desire to, scrutinize the actual direct experience of right now. Find the actuality. Meet consciousness at deep relaxation. Daily meditation. Let go.  And... don’t settle for the abstraction of thinking. It’s relative and can go on forever. Look a layer deeper, and a layer deeper, and a layer deeper. ??  Consider drawing a line (“strikeout”) through every word of what you wrote, which you only actually know, to be your own thought. 

[Lento]

Who said we can never prove the existence of other perspectives?!

I definitely can. The evidence is loud and clear to me. The question is: Are you and others willing to let go of your standards of proof and use mine?

(P.S. Don't take spirituality or any of its explanations literally. They're mere pointers. People usually don't realise that and then they never follow the pointers, but rather they start worshipping them).

You aren't alone. You aren't one.

And yet, you are.

[Javfly33]

23 minutes ago, Lento said:

Who said we can never prove the existence of other perspectives?!

I definitely can. The evidence is loud and clear to me. The question is: Are you and others willing to let go of your standards of proof and use mine?

(P.S. Don't take spirituality or any of its explanations literally. They're mere pointers. People usually don't realise that and then they never follow the pointers, but rather they start worshipping them).

You aren't alone. You aren't one.

And yet, you are.

How can you?

[Lento]

@Javfly33

Whatever you consider a legitimate proof, I don't.

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

I can't get out of concept even after so much work

You can transcend all the conceptualization. Yet more conceptualization is unlikely to transcend concepts. Allowing space for direct experience realization is a better way, ime. 

Ask yourself: would you like to conceptualize about magic? Or would you rather be a magician that creates and experiences magic? 

3 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

However somebody in Africa now is sungazing and this experience is not experiencing sungazing therefore I'm not absolute.

Notice how there is an idea of someone in Africa sungazing. That idea itself is finite and separate. "If I am a person here and not a person in Africa, then I am not absolute". . . Also notice that the idea of someone in Africa is happening Now. 

It involves both space and time. In a sense, you are in the dimension of Now (there is me and a person in Africa right now). Yet you still have the dimension of space. "There is a thing here called me and a thing over there in Africa". This imagery is creating spatial separation of here relative to there. It's very similar with time - the mind creates separation by imagining past and future - relative to now. 

Once the time and space dimensions dissolve (transcended). All sorts of "experience" can arise. The gloves come off. . . For example, could you dream you were a person in Africa sugazing? Yep. Could that dream feel very real? So real that you wake up and you aren't sure whether or not you are in Africa sungazing? You bethcha. Once the time and space dimensions dissolve, a much more diverse set of experiences can arise. At times, imagination and reality cannot be distinguished. Yet imo, this type of voyaging isn't possible when a mind is still contracted within time and space constructs. 

3 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

If right now there are tree in front of me, I am experiencing the tree. Experience is all there is therefore I am the tree.

You have an easier time with this because you have removed imaginary space (I am here and not in Africa). In this case, you are Now with what is "actual". You are still imagining the tree, yet the tree appears to be "here" spatially. Thus, you have removed one of your barriers.

Yet notice how there is still a spatial dimension of subject - object. I am the subject and the tree is the object in front of me. "I am the tree" still has separation. There are two things: the seer and the tree. Yet there is only one. Look. There is only what is. Your mind is creating separation of a thing over there and me over here. Yet seer and tree is the same thing.

I think realizing this through the visual system is much much harder than through the auditory system because the visual system is so much richer in terms of detail and space. I think it's much more accessible through sound. One meditation I do is in a room near birds (it could probably be done via bird recordings). . . I sit and relax the mind so thoughts slow. It's not necessary to be thoughtless, yet thoughts need to be unattached, at a distant. Close your eyes and put your attention on the bird chirps. Watch the appearance of bird chirp sounds in your head. The mind will create an image that the bird chirps are "over there". This is due to millions of years of evolution, a lifetime of conditioning and survival needs. Yet it can be transcended. Put all your attention on those bird chirps. There will be a glimpse that the bird chirps are not outside of my head, they are appearing inside my head. This is a glimpse of nondual perception in which "inside" and "outside" dissolve. Yet at first it is a brief glimpse and the mind will go back to perceiving the bird chirps as if they are external. Notice how the mind does this. It's very very good at this. It can even determine how far away outside the bird chirps are!!. . . Bring the focus back to the appearances in the mind. More glimpses will occur. The bird chirps are occurring in my mind!!! With enough practice, spatial duality can dissolve and you can even flip into it on your own. . . . At a more advanced stage when the mind no longer associates bird chirps as external. . . then. . . observe the appearance of thoughts. Thoughts are the mirror image - thoughts are associated as internal. Yet now, bird chirps and thoughts appear in the same space. There is no "thoughts inside" and "bird chirps" outside. 

I suppose this could be done with some type of recording and other sounds could be used. I like natural sounds. . . This can also be done visually, yet ime it is much much harder to do it visually. Like 100x harder. 

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

You can not look through @Serotoninluvs eyes and have all of his memories because then you would stop being you and you would be him.  That's what it means to be finite.

I know it’s the butt of many jokes, but, try the reiki classes. They’re no joke. I have wooshed into another person and done just that, as well as experienced not only a person’s current life, but their past life, “whoosh” into me, as them. The experience of their experiences was “more real” than what we would call “my experience”. It’s mystical, but not impossible. Finite is actually absolute. So there isn’t really being finite, just Being.

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, Nahm said:

I have woodshed into another person and done just that, as well as experienced not only a person’s current life, but their past life, “whoosh” into me, as them. 

That was you?! ? 

[Nahm]

@Serotoninluv Exactly! ?

[Inliytened1]

@Nahm how do you know I'm not doing that now? :)?? the reality is I am!! And not as the small I ??

[Forestluv]

When the duality between imagined and real dissolves, things get very interesting. . . 

[EddieEddie1995]

Reading this Topic reminded me of this XDD

[Nahm]

@Inliytened1 ?  ?

??