Critiques of Socialism/ Communism

[LfcCharlie4]

Hey @Leo Gura and any other politics lovers.  

I've been getting more into it recently with the UK elections coming up, and am re-watching Conscious Politics for the 3rd time but this time actually taking notes.

I also read some of your blogs and on here Leo that said you wasn't Socialist/ Communist at all, and considered yourself a progressive. 

You said you had critiques of  Socialism/ Communism but I couldn't seem to find them so I thought what better than to start a thread on it. 

i'd love to know a list of critiques you have because for many young people this becomes a clear ideology, just look on twitter and you'll find the Communist/ Socialist twitter VERY quickly lol. 

These thoughts came about, as I didn't see any great replies to this threadL from this guy 

Obviously, he's responding to stage orange capitalism with his Stage Green 'Luxury Communism' I think he calls it, well he tried to sneak in the Communism definition without actually saying Communism

'ok you dont like capitalism but what are you planning to replace it with ?'

Common ownership of the means of production

This guy has made this into a huge ideology, go through the replies and see, he's also simplified World Hunger to Jeff Bezos just being able to throw money at it, so seems a very stage Green person. 

 

 I then also pose the question, to reach the Stage Yellow Cap-Soc hybrid how far will we need to delve into green, so how deep we will need to socialism, will Bernie/ Jeremy Corbyn be enough, or will we even need to go further left than that?

By the way I am certainly not supporting Stage Orange excess capitalism we have now, but this thread makes out as if Capitalism 100% evil and Communism the most perfect thing ever existed, which is of course clear ideology. 

The other issue with this is he will create a shadow around business/ starting a business etc, so will never be able to prosper in the current system it seems, as he believes all profit is 'stealing' and unethical with is a very naive way to look at things. Starting a business that genuinely helps people and isn't some sort of vintage Stage Orange corruption, should be rewarded imo and not all labor/ work is created equally, hence not everyone deserves exactly the same pay. However, do agree all humans deserve basic necessities at the minimum and people shouldn't really have Billions lying around, when people in the same country are starving and homeless. 

Let's not even go into other countries. So, I see why people turn to these 'movements' as the develop into Green.

Looking forward to discussing and learning more.

[Leo Gura]

Perhaps the biggest problem is that socialism is turned into ideology with people parroting it without any independent contemplation of how economics and government works.

[LfcCharlie4]

@Leo Gura I see. 

So if you were to state your 5 biggest critiques of Socialism and Communism as political models to follow, as well as how to criticize them from a Yello standpoint instead of a typical resistant Orange standpoint which is what they are used to.

For example, how do you respond to these sequences, they start with a critique of Socialism/ Communism from a Capitalist stand point, then he answers rebutting that, how would you then critique that from a higher stand point. 

'Millionaires and Billionaires deserve their excessive wealth because they took all the risk'

'If I took a gamble to set up a sweatshop making shoes in my basement paying slave wages and if they don't work for me they'll starve, do I still deserve all the money I made off of that sweatshop?' 

'what if I'm a millionaire, I wouldn't want to pay those taxes" what can I say other than you never will be a millionaire so quit being daft'

'Yeah mate you're not gonna be a millionaire because the best predictor of becoming richer is being born into a family already with a lot of capital to be able to act as a safety net for any potential gambles (such as entrepreneurialism)' 

and another one

'Socialism has never worked'

'Socialism worked at making the Soviet Union the second most powerful force on Earth in fifteen years. Socialism worked at getting Cuba a lower infant mortality rate and higher life expectancy than the United States.' 

 

Sorry for the long replies, its an area I desperately want to deepen my knowledge in. 

 

[Leo Gura]

@LfcCharlie4 It's a complex topic I don't want to elucidate via a forum post.

I'll do a video about capitalism vs socialism at some point.

[LfcCharlie4]

@Leo Gura Okay cool. 

Can you recommend some resources for learning about a Stage Yellow economy, or critiques of these models from a stage yellow perspective instead of the typical orange.

[Leo Gura]

Not off the top of my head.

[tenta]

3 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

 

This guy has made this into a huge ideology, go through the replies and see, he's also simplified World Hunger to Jeff Bezos just being able to throw money at it, so seems a very stage Green person. 

 

Saying issues are more complex than they are serves jeff bezos and others like him, it's not just about him throwing money at it, he isn't concerned with that because it isn't profitable. Trump isn't a figure of virtue who is trying his hardest to stop climate change but is stopped by the issue being complex, he isn't even admitting it's real which is the first step.

Edited December 5, 2019 by tenta

[Cocolove]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Not off the top of my head.

Would the one about SD and economics on the book list be good?

[LfcCharlie4]

@Husseinisdoingfine I hear you man, that sounds like some serious growth which is great. 

To me, hardcore socialism seems similar to militant Vegansim (I'm vegan myself so am familiar with the militants lol) as in it comes from a place of love, but still becomes a clear ideology, to the point 'Marxists' believe capitalism has done 0 good for the world and they become quite delusional about communism and pure socialism, so it to me seems very Ideological Green. 

Whereas, Bernie seems like very healthy green that the world needs, we need more socialistic aspects in our economy for sure, in the UK we have the NHS which gives free healthcare to all, I think in 2019 everyone should have shelter, food and clean water and healthcare, the bare essentuals to survive, and it isn't 'fair' that people hoard billions in excess when their is such unjust. 

But the solutions aren't exactly simple and straightforward or we wouldn't be here, but I think like any point of view their is some truths to Communism, Socialism and Capitalism. 

The hard part, is learning how to integrate these political theories to create the best society possible, that is as fair as possible without stifling the innovation business provides, for example I think it's incorrect to say any profit made is 'stealing' from workers, yet I also believe Taxes should be much higher for the richest and much more progressive, but this is why developing a Stage Yellow economy will be so complex as it's finding that balance and it could take centuries to get this right. 

And, like you say not everything conservatives say is complete trash, they have important policies, and stage orange is an important stage to be integrated. 

I'm hoping Corbyn (Bernie equivalent other here) gets in power next Thursday but I'm not sure he will unfortunately so it will be another 5 years under conservatives with very little progression made. 

It's good not to have to stick labels on things, personally I want the best society possible, that helps as many people as possible, and Conservatives certainly aren't that, ideally we will reach a stage Yellow society in our lifetime but I highly doubt it. 

@Leo Gura second what he says, that Capitalism vs Socialism video would be awesome, perhaps time it early next year and use it as a way to help people understand Bernie  

[LfcCharlie4]

@tenta Yes I see your point. As you say he isn't interested and that could be seen as me saying an excuse for him but it isn't, I just mean more would need to be done than throwing money at it, simply systems would need to be put in place to help these countries sustainably grow and thrive, I don't believe any human needs $117 Billion, it's quite ridiculous, however at the same time while Amazon has HUGE issues with worker rights etc, they have changed the face of the world, therefore, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve any money. 

Without Amazon, small business owners like myself would really struggle to grow, as would independent authors, sellers etc, it's a double-edged sword, I really hope companies like this start to evolve to stage green though, although like you said it seems unlikely until they are forced to. 

 

@Cocolove Could you link it. 

[Nickyy]

@LfcCharlie4 Companies being made to pay their taxes is a good start. I paid more in individual tax last year than Facebook did!

Tax havens need to be abolished and companies need to be registered in every country they operate in and made to contribute to the society they make a profit from. 

Saying that their contribution is enough because they are creating jobs is not good enough. Yes they are creating jobs, but its the people who are working 60 hours a week sometimes holding down 2-3 jobs who are making these businesses profit AND keeping the country afloat.

There is nothing inherently wrong with capitalism, it just needs to be reformed to serve the system rather than pure profit. Orange needs to grow up rather than be abolished. 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Nickyy

[LfcCharlie4]

@Nickyy

i completely agree with basically every point you’ve made.

here in the UK Amazon pay fuck all in tax, yet exploit workers for the fun of it, it’s a bit of a joke, and the worry is if we clamp down on tax under Corbyn they’ll just go elsewhere and then 1000s of jobs could be lost. 

These companies have far too much power as it is.

but people just saying to boycott them also seems a bit unpractical.

like I said I can’t just stop selling on amazon, as they are such a huge platform.

Power of these companies needs to be reduced, and workers need to actually be treated fairly, but it seems we’re a long way from that, change can be frustratingly slow at times. 

Yeah, hence Ideological green isn’t the answer, just to abolish all of capitalism as it ignores the upsides of their “enemy” as many ideologies do unfortunately.