Demonizing faith?

[jim123]

I was bored so I wrote a little essay about one of Leo's blog posts.

Leo says: ”I have no desire to make you believe in God or my teachings.”

At least he has a desire to have people following his cult YouTube channel and committing themselves to the work that he talks about. But supposedly you can do all that work even if you don’t believe anything that Actualized.org teaches. That's the whole point. The importance of direct experience seems to be the main theme of the blog post, so let's just focus on that. In my direct experience, I can see that it is impossible to put any spiritual teaching into practice unless I first believe in it. For example, the motivation to practice meditation in the first place is the belief that what you are doing is worth it. It is mainly the belief that your practice will eventually reveal some profound truth that only a few people know about. If you are seeking enlightenment, obviously you must believe that enlightenment is even a real thing. Many people do not seek enlightenment. Why? Because they don’t believe in it. Sorry buddy, but beliefs are necessary.

If you ask Hindus why they are Hindus, would they say that they are Hindus for no reason? No. They would say that the reason they are Hindus is because they believe in Hinduism, or because they believe in the teachings of some Hindu guru, or maybe because they believe in the scriptures of Hinduism. The thing is, everyone believes in something. The difference between religion and Actualized.org is the fact that the former admits that it has faith, and the latter denies.

And if we really go philosophical, even the idea that beliefs are not important is, in itself — you guessed it — a belief! By contrast many people believe that beliefs indeed are important in regard to spirituality. But if belief is an obstacle, then you must, paradoxically, believe that you should not have any beliefs (not even that belief!). And even if this is somehow possible to accomplish, you still can’t get there unless you start by having faith. What even causes people to be interested in eastern mysticism? What even causes people to be interested in anything? It is their beliefs.

Blog post I was referring to: https://actualized.org/insights/this-work-is-not-about-belief

[Inliytened1]

When i stumbled on spirituality it was merely by accident and i began doing self inquiry merely out of open minded curiosity.  

But even if you do believe that you might find Absolute Truth - that is not the same as saying Absolute Truth is itself a belief.

What is said is not to mistake Truth as a belief.

You can believe you might find something if you seek it - that is fine - that is something relative.  Belief itself, within the realm of form, is not being shunned.  It is that Truth is not a belief.   See the difference?

And actually Truth is so counterintuitive that many often say to find Truth you need to drop the seeking.

When i found it i wasn't seeking - i was just curiously exploring with an open mind.

[WelcometoReality]

@jim123 Does an act really need to stem from belief?

Let's say a friend of mine tells me he had the best dish he's eaten in his life at a restaurant and I need to try it.

I can believe what he says, go to the restaurant and order the dish. That would be an act stemming from a belief.

I can also not believe what he says which would also stem from a belief.

But hat if I saw his words as a story, like a fiction novel. I wouldn't see his words as either true or false, no belief would be formed. I'd go to the restaurant with an open mind and explore the dish without any preconceived judgments about it.

[jim123]

@WelcometoReality

What eastern spirituality is about is sitting in a dark cave for 10 years straight in hopes of reaching this enlightenment thing. That is way beyond simply exploring things with an open mind.

[Leo Gura]

Out beyond all beliefs, there is a field. I'll meet you there.

[Sahil Pandit]

@Leo Gura ok boomer.. i mean, Rumi 

[WelcometoReality]

4 hours ago, jim123 said:

@WelcometoReality

What eastern spirituality is about is sitting in a dark cave for 10 years straight in hopes of reaching this enlightenment thing. That is way beyond simply exploring things with an open mind.

Sitting in a dark cave for 10 years seems like an extreme case to me. Most do this work in their normal day to day life. What I was trying to convey was that you don't have to believe something to explore it.

A good scientist is careful of any bias when doing research. So should anyone doing this kind of work.

 

[jim123]

@WelcometoReality

Even if I explored it 100 years it would never prove this teaching that ”you are God.” I could have some mystical experiences and stuff but would those really be a proof of anything?

And there’s nothing special about that teaching by the way, because it originates from Hinduism which is the third largest religion in the world. The scriptures of Hinduism, in particular the Upanishads, flat out says that YOU literally are God, leaving no misunderstanding.

Edited December 6, 2019 by jim123

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, jim123 said:

@WelcometoReality

Even if I explored it 100 years it would never prove this teaching that ”you are God.” I could have some mystical experiences and stuff but would those really be a proof of anything

You do not yet know what a mystical experience is.  It is Being, which is prior to proof.   

When you dissolve into pure Being there will be no more posts from you like this.   

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

You have to start somewhere when you set out for truth. Of course a belief has to be taken, but lightly. This has been addressed multiple times. 

 

[Consilience]

Man... I feel you op. I used to be very anti leo and anyone claiming the ego was an illusory self and I was nothing/infinity/god. But I guess my reaction was “well either it’s true or it’s not and the only way for me to find out is if I try to find out.” So I started doing the practices. I started consistently meditating 1 hour every day and learning how to focus and build awareness. I learned how to properly contemplate and sought out other teachings/teachers, trying to find counter arguments to eastern mysticism while also slowly (and accidentally) discovering the holes in western science, philosophical rationalism, and agnosticism (at this point I already saw how atheism and religion are both blind beliefs). Long story short, Ive had direct encounters with consciousness, formlessness and infinity.... but it was from a place of HONEST investigation, not belief nor blind criticism of Leo. 

I guess I see what you’re saying about belief but it doesn't really resonate with my path. I honest to god didn't know what meditation, contemplation, or psychedelics would do... but I was deeply curious and wanted to see where the road would lead. 

[Lento]

Of course, belief is a core component of spirituality, just like any other intellectual system. Keep in mind that most of Leo's audience are rationalists who are sensitive to religion and its accessories, and are programmed to trust direct experience as the only way to verify facts, because they are programmed to be skeptical objective scientists, or at least that's what they think of themselves.

'No beliefs required' is just a marketing strategy, unless Leo himself is unaware of this obvious fact, which I highly doubt.

[WelcometoReality]

19 hours ago, jim123 said:

Even if I explored it 100 years it would never prove this teaching that ”you are God.” I could have some mystical experiences and stuff but would those really be a proof of anything?

Yeah that is exactly right. You will realize that you are God but there won't be any proof of it. It's a subjective truth.

19 hours ago, jim123 said:

And there’s nothing special about that teaching by the way, because it originates from Hinduism which is the third largest religion in the world. The scriptures of Hinduism, in particular the Upanishads, flat out says that YOU literally are God, leaving no misunderstanding.

I believe.. That this is what all big religions is trying to point to.

[jim123]

@WelcometoReality

23 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

I believe.. That this is what all big religions is trying to point to.

Yeah, the eastern ones, but not Christianity. That's why Leo hasn't made any videos about Christianity; because it doesn't line up with his philosophy. He does mention Christianity here and there, but 99% of the time he only discusses eastern religions (which is strange given that Christianity is the biggest religion in the world). Jesus himself taught the opposite of what Leo teaches, because Jesus said that if you believe on him you have everlasting life (in John 6:47). According to Christ beliefs are very important, but Leo says that all beliefs are obstacles.

[Leo Gura]

Everything I teach lines up perfectly with Christian mysticism and Jesus.

Jesus taught exactly what I teach. Just in different words.

My teachings are in no way Eastern. They are equally Western. There is no difference between East and West, Buddha and Christ.

[jim123]

@Leo Gura

Really? Why did Jesus never teach meditation, yoga or self-inquiry?

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, jim123 said:

@Leo Gura

Really? Why did Jesus never teach meditation, yoga or self-inquiry?

First of all, we have little idea of what techniques Jesus taught. Many of them may have been lost to history.

Secondly, the techiques are not important as long as one reaches nondual consciousness. Whatever works is fine. I support any technique that gets one there, as long as it doesn't harm others.

Seems like Jesus did a 30 day vision quest, fasting out in the desert. That's hardcore, but a well-known technique. That is like meditation on steroids.

[Raptorsin7]

@jim123 You're being too literal in how you're interrupting these guys' answers. When leo claims that the Buddha and Christ are the same what do you think means by that? There are so many assumptions going into these claims you need to start questioning. Don't just react based on your own skewed world view of how things work.

[WelcometoReality]

9 hours ago, jim123 said:

@WelcometoReality

Yeah, the eastern ones, but not Christianity. That's why Leo hasn't made any videos about Christianity; because it doesn't line up with his philosophy. He does mention Christianity here and there, but 99% of the time he only discusses eastern religions (which is strange given that Christianity is the biggest religion in the world). Jesus himself taught the opposite of what Leo teaches, because Jesus said that if you believe on him you have everlasting life (in John 6:47). According to Christ beliefs are very important, but Leo says that all beliefs are obstacles.

Could it be that they are both important and obstacles? The belief Might lead you on a christian path but the belief alone is not enough to realize the eternal, you also need to explore what Jesus teachings point to.

[WelcometoReality]

On 2019-12-06 at 5:15 AM, Maximus said:

This in itself is a belief. I, for example, do only get benefit from going to the extreme. Or setting out that faith in this extreme way will provide some life-changing and upgrading benefit. For example, even faith that being an authentic version of self, and asking what is the true nature of reality. Yes, there is searching for truth without belief, and experimenting without seeking, but it comes from a faith that authenticity careful of bias is a best starting point, and will prove more fruits. What if, from that starting point, you accidentally stumble upon a deep realisation that everything is love, or nature is subjective, there is no objective truth. It actually challenges the premise of the starting point. The start of research, and what you accidentally find are like two opposing beliefs. Both are searching for truth, yes. Both require faith in my opinion. If I have no faith in a higher version of self, or that an exploration in truth has value, I don't even research.

The belief can be a starting point as you say but is the realization still a belief or is that something deeper. Science will lead from one belief to another while a realization of truth is something deeper. It's not opposite beliefs but a transcendence of the belief to a realization.