Is it conscious politics to hold devils accountable?

[Bno]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The Russians are just manipulators, exploiters, and opportunists. Of course they couldn't know Trump would win. They got a very lucky break.  But now that they got it, they will use it to their utmost.

Trump HAS been extremely accomodating to Putin.

Hillary was an existential threat to Putin. She would have plotted to undermine and overthrow him.

You're right about the reason Putin preferred Trump over Hillary, and I will also add that she would've acted against several of his geopolitical interests. Putin also preferred Obama over McCain and Romney, but no one is saying Putin colluded with Obama. Are you also agreeing that Trump likely did not collude and that Putin just got lucky? And here I have some of the acts Trump has done against Putin's interest and escalated tensions with Russia:

Trump is pulling out of the IMF nuclear treaty by increasing the US troop presence on Russia's borders.

Trump also started arming Ukrainian neonazis on Russia's borders, something Obama wasn't doing.

Trump is undermining a vital gas pipeline between Germany and Russia

Trump is pushing for a pipeline that'll go from Saudia Arabia, through Syria, and into Europe so that those countries can have better access to US-Saudi oil. Russia doesn't want that because right now they are the number one oil providers to those European countries.

Trump also bombed Syria twice, which is Putin's ally.

Trump attempted a coup in Venezuela, which Putin is against.

[remember]

who is the poker face? we could ask that. but that makes it all much more difficult to find out about the true intentions. let’s assume politicians are always speaking the truth... let’s say, playing this game without historical rules is difficult.

[Joel3102]

@Bno lol yeah if Trump is Putin’s puppet he’s doing a pretty bad job at it. We should be encouraging diplomacy with Russia, not escalating tensions.

Trump also pulls out of the Iran deal which directly goes against Russian interests. 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Bno said:

but no one is saying Putin colluded with Obama.

This is an absurd false equivalency. Obama has no business interests in Russia and Obama has high integrity. Trump's entire career hinged on Russian money and Trump as zero integrity. Trump would not refuse Russian help if it was offered. In fact, it was offered, and he and his son were eager to accept it.

Quote

Are you also agreeing that Trump likely did not collude and that Putin just got lucky?

"Collusion" is a misleading word. The collusion wasn't necessarily one where Trump and Putin sat in a room and actively hatched a plan to win the election (although even that is within the realm of possibility with Trump). More likely it was simply a tacit understanding that this serves both their best interests. The way Mafia does business is mostly tacitly. The boss doesn't need to tell his staff to kill someone or bring him money. Everyone understands what the game is. So no explicit collusion is necessary. In fact it's best to avoid it to reduce chances of being caught. That's how business is done at Stage Red. You're not going to find a paper trail.

[Forestluv]

@Bno You don’t seem able to imagine things through the mind of a criminal. 

[Bno]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is an absurd false equivalency. Obama has no business interests in Russia and Obama has high integrity. Trump's entire career hinged on Russian money and Trump as zero integrity. Trump would not refuse Russian help if it was offered. In fact, it was offered, and he and his son were eager to accept it.

Obama doesn't have integrity with US or Saudi corporate interests but that is a discussion I don't wish to have today. Everything else may be true, but what does that have to do with the US election being interfered? And what about Trump laundering money with oligarchs from other countries besides Russia?

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

"Collusion" is a misleading word. The collusion wasn't necessarily one where Trump and Putin sat in a room and actively hatched a plan to win the election (although even that is within the realm of possibility with Trump). More likely it was simply a tacit understanding that this serves both their best interests. The way Mafia does business is mostly tacitly. The boss doesn't need to tell his staff to kill someone or bring him money. Everyone understands what the game is. So no explicit collusion is necessary. In fact it's best to avoid it to reduce chances of being caught. That's how business is done at Stage Red. You're not going to find a paper trail.

Could be true, but this is speculation and Trump's foreign policy actions haven't benefited Putin.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Bno

[Bno]

1 hour ago, Joel3102 said:

@Bno lol yeah if Trump is Putin’s puppet he’s doing a pretty bad job at it. We should be encouraging diplomacy with Russia, not escalating tensions.

Trump also pulls out of the Iran deal which directly goes against Russian interests. 

Lol, exactly. There's a stronger argument to be made of Trump being a Saudi or Israeli puppet.

[Thewritersunion]

The ethical will inspire the Pure.

The unethical will inspire the Devil.

[Leo Gura]

33 minutes ago, Bno said:

if Trump is Putin’s puppet he’s doing a pretty bad job at it.

A) He's not a puppet. He's a useful idiot for Putin to manipulate.

B) Trump does a bad job at everything. So no one should expect him to be some kind of studious puppet. It's like throwing a squirrel into a tea ceremony. Doing a bad job is its job.

[Bno]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A) No one's saying he's a puppet. He's just compromised. A useful idiot for Putin.

B) Trump does a bad job at everything. So no one should expect him to be some kind of studious puppet.

We're in agreement here except that he's more of a useful idiot for his billionaire buddies in this country and for Israel and Saudi Arabia than for Putin.

Trump's transparent incompetence is hilarious:

What has Trump done that is useful to Putin and does this outweigh his actions against Putin's geopolitical interests? 

Do you also still believe Putin interfered in our election in a way that significantly affected the results? If so, how did he interfere?

Edited December 7, 2019 by Bno

[Forestluv]

Russia is gaining power relative to America, in part through Russia’s leverage on Trump. Most Americans are unaware. .The world’s western leaders mock Trump during international meetings. . . Russia is delighted.

[Bno]

14 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Russia is gaining power relative to America, in part through Russia’s leverage on Trump. Most Americans are unaware. .The world’s western leaders mock Trump during international meetings. . . Russia is delighted.

They're delighted to see us with such a dysfunctional and idiotic president. But Russia is not delighted to see him act in favor of the US oligarchs and against Russian geopolitical interests.

[Forestluv]

30 minutes ago, Bno said:

But Russia is not delighted to see him act in favor of the US oligarchs and against Russian geopolitical interests.

Russia has leverage on Trump and can manipulate him. That is what they want and what they are getting. They want four more years of Trump and are trying to influence the 2020 election as we speak. 

[Bno]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

Correct, because Trump is not doing that. Russia has leverage on Trump and can manipulate him. That is what they want and what they are getting. They want four more years of Trump and are trying to influence the 2020 election as we speak. 

What are they doing to try to influence the 2020 election?

[Forestluv]

@Bno From my pov, you don’t seem to have experience of being involved in crime or understand the mind of a criminal. This is a good thing, yet its hard for me to have a conversation within this context. 

[Bno]

@Serotoninluv I'm willing to hear what you have to say and try to understand.

[Leo Gura]

Yes, Trump is also compromised by Suadi Arabia, Turkey, and who knows where else.

An idiot is useful to lots of players.

[Bno]

Bringing the conversation back to Ana and TYT, they have a lot of blinders on which spreads misinformation among people seeking to be progressive. In addition to them getting Russiagate wrong, that they meddled in our election and significantly impacted it, and in addition to them pushing for Clinton instead of election integrity which is more productive in fixing the country's problems as well as taking dark money from Clinton donors, Ana praised Madeline Albright, a SoS corrupted with corporate interests and who ultimately ended up killing millions of people in Iraq and who said it was worth it. 

What makes this praise worse is that Ana doesn't hold the same criticism she has for Tulsi Gabbard, a Democratic candidate who stepped down from her DNC Vice-Chair position to endorse Bernie Sanders after seeing the unfair treatment and rigging against him, towards Madeline Albright. Ana calls Tulsi an islamophobe even though Tulsi wants to end regime change wars which are primarily hurting muslims. On the other hand Ana praised Madeline Albright even though her actions killed millions of Muslims.

The hypocrisy gets worse when you look back at Ana's comments during the night of the 2016 election when she said "there is a special place in hell for women who do not support other women." Well, why does she not support Tulsi Gabbard then, who is primarily campaigning to end wars and regimes that are started because of corporate greed and to get money out of politics? Yet she praises Madeline Albright, someone that promoted acts of regime change war for corporate interests?

My goal here is not to demonize Ana, but to let people on this forum know about the low consciousness level and delusion that she and other members of TYT have compared to other political journalists and commentators on youtube. With Cenk, arguably the most conscious on that channel, leaving to run for congress, he will leave Ana in charge of TYT.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Bno

[Bno]

13 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

There may not be a consensus on the degree and effectiveness of interference, yet there is a consensus on the interference itself.

Overall, the substances TYT was saying about Trump colluding with Putin and that this had an effect on our election were not proven. Focusing on the Russigate issue over other more harmful actions Trump was committing is not productive. In order to beat Trump, we need to focus on issues that will hurt him. The MSM Russiagate coverage and now the impeachment hearings are not hurting him, they're actually increasing his approval rating. Don't you think there's a more efficient way to damage Trump's chances of winning in 2020 by focusing on more proveable actions hes committed that have hurt the average American? Overall, Americans do not care about Russiagate and these new Ukrainiangate impeachment hearings. They care more about policies that are affecting their day-to-day lives.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Bno

[Leo Gura]

Tulsi is way overrated. She don't deserve to be president. Foreign policy does not a good president make. Tusli has a checked past when it comes to progressive domestic policy issues.