Opioid and Norepinephrine Production in Meditative Joy and Jhanas

[ardacigin]

Here is a great interview on jhanas from Leigh Brasington on Deconstructing Yourself Podcast.

In a scientific sense, it appears that deep meditative joy is basically stable and consistent opioid (sukha) and norepinephrine (piti) production in the nervous system. This is currently Leigh's theory on the science of jhanas.

Subjectively, this is how I feel as well.

Norepinephrine gives that bouncy energy and agitation in the physical body. It is more present in the 1st and 2nd jhana. Opioid gives you the happiness and joy with warmth and contentment. It is more present in 3rd jhana. Opioid is really where stuff gets super interesting.

 For instance, Heroin is a very addicting and powerful form of opioid so in a sense, you are getting a fraction of that naturally. This is brain's natural opioid endorphins. Obviously, I don't know what heroin feels like but if jhanas are a vastly less potent form of heroin then stabilizing just the 1% of a heroin high naturally with meditative joy is pretty damn sweet. It'd make holding on to negative states of mind almost impossible. It is that sweet.

Jhana practice is basically teaching the brain to manipulate these neurotransmitters for the purposes of deep insight practice. But these states in and of themselves reduce craving so much that they can be directly insight practices themselves. (if you have enough mindfulness)

 In the deeper jhanas like the 3rd jhana, opioid and endorphin production increases a lot so that the element of contentment and equanimity with joy and happiness becomes really pronounced. 

Leigh says that mastering meditative joy and jhanas to a stable level so that your emotions in daily life is skewed to the positive and your baseline happiness is permanently increased takes about 5 years of work. It is a long term project. This time frame is for non-monastics. 

And overall, I do agree. It took me 3-4 years with TMI. But I have never intentionally practiced jhanas. I was learning deep access concentration with TMI and I was thrust into the world of stable joy and happiness.

So maybe, if I were to cultivate joy and happiness and focus on that as a meditation object, I'd have experienced this shift in 1-2 years. Regardless, 5 years is a doable time frame IF you have a consistent jhana practice + access concentration. If you don't have a hardcore daily practice like that, then you may not even get any meditative joy in 10 years. You must make this work a priority. 

Anyways, here is the interview. Listen to it in a state of deep meditation, access concentration and hopefully in a state of joy and happiness.

https://deconstructingyourself.com/dy-014-diving-deep-jhanas-guest-leigh-brasington.html

Edited December 2, 2019 by ardacigin

[seeking_brilliance]

I find this all very interesting. Would be awesome if there was some sort of compiled list of practices to naturally enhance your body's chemical production. Kind of sounds like alchemy. 

[Forestluv]

I've taken dilaudid twice. Dilaudid is the strongest opiod and similar to heroine. Ime, dilaudid was a mystical experience of bliss (even in a hospital setting). Yet it is extremely addictive. 

[ardacigin]

13 hours ago, seeking_brilliance said:

I find this all very interesting. Would be awesome if there was some sort of compiled list of practices to naturally enhance your body's chemical production. Kind of sounds like alchemy. 

Exactly  Mastering the Alchemy of Emotions. Intense exercise and healthy diet is said to increase natural opioid and endorphin production. However, these are very minor developments compared to mental states that can be achieved on jhanas and with meditative joy.

Edited December 3, 2019 by ardacigin

[ardacigin]

20 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I've taken dilaudid twice. Dilaudid is the strongest opiod and similar to heroine. Ime, dilaudid is a legit mystical experience of bliss. Yet it is extremely addictive. 

@SerotoninluvI've never heard of that. How would you compare 5 meo dmt and dilaudid? Even though they are different substances, what sort of similarities and differences they have?

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, ardacigin said:

@SerotoninluvI've never heard of that. How would you compare 5 meo dmt and dilaudid? Even though they are different substances, what sort of similarities and differences they have?

For me, the dosage of 5-meo stimulates different flavors of trips. I'm comparing a relatively low 5-meo dose to dilaudid below. 

My trips with dilaudid was when I was in a hospital with a kidney stone. The first was the most profound. The nurse didn't drip through an IV - she shot it into me all at once. There was a wave that overtook me and I was like "Whoa. . . what was that?". . . I immediately loved it. And not just for the cessation of physical pain. Everything was ok. No problems, no worries. No nothing. There was pure bliss in the moment. There was no place in the world I would have rather been than that hospital room. It was like taking a trip to Bora Bora and being on the beach getting a massage. Yet even better. The energy was peace, bliss and love. Time stopped. It was deeper than a simple feel-good pleasure. There was an essence of bliss, peace, love and Now. 

A few years later, I tried 5-meo for the first time - a low/moderate dose. After reading reports online, I had some anxiety about the impending ego death. Yet it wasn't like that at all. There was a little bit of resistance and letting go. Then there was a surreal peace, bliss, love and connection,. It was very different than any psychedelic trip I've had. It reminded me more of the dilaudid trip years ago. I thought "That's what heroin is like" (even though I've never done heroin). Then I got online and started reading about people's experience with 5-meo and heroin. There are actually forums with people talking about 5-meo and heroin trips that were using 5-meo in the same context of heroin. I understood. . . . Later, I watched a documentary on Janis Joplin and all her turmoils. There was a part about her addiction to heroin and how it was the only thing that could get her to "that place". I felt like I knew that place Janis went to. 

I would say there are similarities at low/moderate 5-meo doses. There is a presence of being absolutely ok in the present moment that is a form of bliss. Its hard for me to describe this essence of Now-ness. . .

Differences: there was zero resistance, anxiety or discomfort with dilaudid. It was pure wonderful. As well, there were cravings afterward for more. Even after one exposure, my body wanted more and my mind was scheming to get more. My mind thought maybe I could convince them to give me a dilaudid prescription. And I was willing to pretend my symptoms were worse to get a script (I didn't get one). I think there is very high risk of dependency and addiction with dilaudid. With 5-meo, there was also a mind-body craving that I never experienced with psychedelics. This gave me concern. Yet the craving wasn't as intense as with dilaudid. I think because 5-meo wasn't quite the same type of bliss. 5-meo also a bit of physical and mental discomfort with it during the comeup. 

 

[Corpus]

^^ Dilaudid aka hydromorphone when taken IV exceeds the pleasure factor of IV heroin because the former crosses the blood-brain barrier faster. When taken orally its less impressive.

As un-politically correct it may be to say it, opiates are entheogenic in their own peculiar way. As is well known, their ability to hijack the mechanism of the egos construction detrimentally is almost unrivalled.

"You would have to be brainless to not enjoy opiates". Literally brainless and not in the "brains don't exist"* fashion.

*attributed to L Gura.   

[ardacigin]

@Serotoninluv I thought 5 meo dmt was not addictive. It is interesting that other psychedelics don't produce this craving. Maybe Dilaudid created a form of attachment to this profound mental state and when 5 meo-dmt at low levels reduced craving to a similar level, the mind has reacted with addictive behaviour, as occured with dilaudid. Maybe this can be one of the reasons why 5 meo was addicting to you?

I can definitely get a sense of what you are talking about. Serenity, blissful joy, equanimity in the present moment. I'm pretty sure this is 1000 times deeper and more intense with Dilaudid, but meditative joy gets you these elements as well.

Even though they are not on full awakening and nirvana levels of ecstasy, once they dominate consciousness on mid-levels, all negative states of minds go away and craving is radically reduced. The bliss is not subtle and is present in consciousness effortlessly with stability on significant levels. This also enables you to interact with people and do demanding tasks. You constantly walk with a smile on your face effortlessly.

But I'm only a meditator with a few years of experience. I'm pretty sure a meditator who has spent decades of time with meditative joy can run with it, deepen it and get it to legit morphine levels with profound equanimity consistently.

But we are only talking about the emotional aspects of this path. 5 meo gives you many more insights besides ecstatic emotions and unconditional happiness. Thank you for the comparison though  

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

@Serotoninluv I thought 5 meo dmt was not addictive. It is interesting that other psychedelics don't produce this craving. 

There are several reasons psychedelics are non-addictive and non-habit-forming. 1) They don't activate the dopamine reward pathway. 2) There is a long onset until effects manifest (about 1 hr). 3) The trip has a very long duration 5+ hours, 4) There is a rapid onset of tolerance for a long period (a tolerance spike within 1hr that requires 12 days for a reset), 5) There are often uncomfortable associations with the trip (e.g. anxiety, nausea). Taken together. there is a low risk for addiction or habit formation.

5-meo is not a standard psychedelic with all of these features. In particular, 5-meo has a rapid onset of effects (within minutes), the trip duration is short (under an hour) and there is a very short tolerance window (under 1 day). Taken together, 5-meo is still relatively non-addictive/non-habit forming, yet it does not have the extreme non-addictive/non-habit profile of a standard psychedelic like LSD. In a general population, I would place the risk of 5-meo addiction / habit formation above LSD and below cannabis. 

The majority of people can moderate their 5-meo usage effortlessly or with little effort. Yet there occasionally are individuals that have difficulty moderating their 5-meo usage. For example, the may use 5-meo as an escape or recreationally.