Mescaline and Spiritual awakening

[outlandish]

I've taken mescaline cacti 4 times and never vomited from it, so I think like anything it just depends. I have vomited on another psychedelic, so I'm not immune to the possibility. I find the hardest part is eating it, definitely on the verge of hurling during that process, and then after that I find it's such a relief to stop eating it that the nausea goes away completely.

Have you ever eaten a really bitter cucumber? If you've never eaten cacti, the best comparison is one of those super bitter cucumbers, but it's been left at the back of your fridge for too long so its become spongey and floppy, and it's like 100x more bitter. 

You really have to focus your mind and body to get it down.

Mescaline itself is really smooth and beautiful. It's much less "peaky" than tryptamines and lysergamides. It's such a rounded, warm, calm, grounded experience. I find it less transformative, and more accepting and expansive than some other psychedelics if that makes any sense.

[Forestluv]

The hard part of mescaline cacti for me was the amount that I needed to ingest. It's hard to get down without water, yet if you add too much water - it expands and I felt bloated. Yet once I got it all down, there was moderate discomfort in my gut for about a half hour, then things settled down. 

The trip lasts a long time. There is a very gradual come-up and a very gradual come-down. Also, it wasn't possessive at all. It was like an all day affair in which I could "leave and take a break for a bit" if I wanted to - and then return to the mystical experience. It was always present, yet I never felt forced into it. . . .San Pedro is the only psychedelic I've done with that dynamic. 

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

4 minutes ago, outlandish said:

I've taken mescaline cacti 4 times and never vomited from it, so I think like anything it just depends. I have vomited on another psychedelic, so I'm not immune to the possibility. I find the hardest part is eating it, definitely on the verge of hurling during that process, and then after that I find it's such a relief to stop eating it that the nausea goes away completely.

Have you ever eaten a really bitter cucumber? If you've never eaten cacti, the best comparison is one of those super bitter cucumbers, but it's been left at the back of your fridge for too long so its become spongey and floppy, and it's like 100x more bitter. 

You really have to focus your mind and body to get it down.

Mescaline itself is really smooth and beautiful. It's much less "peaky" than tryptamines and lysergamides. It's such a rounded, warm, calm, grounded experience. I find it less transformative, and more accepting and expansive than some other psychedelics if that makes any sense.

Have you ever downed spirulina powder in water? That was the most gag reflex inducing thing I've downed, maybe along with ashwagandha powder in water. Wonder how it compares to downing the cactus. Is it necessary to chew for a longer period for alkaloid absorption? 

[outlandish]

1 hour ago, TrynaBeTurquoise said:

Have you ever downed spirulina powder in water? That was the most gag reflex inducing thing I've downed, maybe along with ashwagandha powder in water. Wonder how it compares to downing the cactus. Is it necessary to chew for a longer period for alkaloid absorption? 

I think I have a couple of times, and I don't remember spirulina being as intense as mescaline cacti. But it's probably along those lines. I don't know if it's necessary to chew it for a long time, it seems logical that you'd want to mechanically break it up before well swallowing, but I'm not sure your saliva needs to get in there for enzymatic breakdown or anything like that.

It seems like most people you read about on the internet make extractions of their cacti, whether that be a concentrated tea or something more complex. I've never bothered, but it would be worth looking into as it would probably make it easier to ingest.

[remember]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

That's fine if it is a natural part of the awakening process. Yet psychedelics like Aya will induce nausea/vomiting/diarrhea regardless of any self disgust. One could have no disgust and be violently hurling.

it might still be part of the traditional cleansing process, or it is exactly that what makes the difference between a real shaman and  someone who experiments on the substance - a real shaman prepares not only through special dieting but also spiritually. and that`s also probably the difference for someone who does it with or without a real shaman.

i`m not sure if you understand that the spiritual and the medical cleansing might be more connected than we think. it might not at all just be about the clean experience. of course it is different if you vomit from the substance or from the psyche/soul, but maybe the substance can teach you some things about spiritual cleansing you were not aware of yet. maybe for the psyche/soul it does not make a difference, by what trigger the body gets purified.

yes the woman was mainly writing about ayahuasca.

maybe ginger would really work for mescaline.

there are two recipes on this web site... i was curious for this one... still not completely sure if i want to be a toad milker though...but i would probably prefer that, somehow i`m not so much into the chemistry, i still like witchery more. will see if i try it. probably more for the witchery than the effect.. still. and if that works out fine, tabletop mushrooms.

https://www.zamnesia.com/content/218-what-is-a-san-pedro-cactus#3

Edited December 2, 2019 by remember

[Forestluv]

41 minutes ago, remember said:

it might still be part of the traditional cleansing process, or it is exactly that what makes the difference between a real shaman and  someone who experiments on the substance - a real shaman prepares not only through special dieting but also spiritually. and that`s also probably the difference for someone who does it with or without a real shaman.

i`m not sure if you understand that the spiritual and the medical cleansing might be more connected than we think. it might not at all just be about the clean experience. of course it is different if you vomit from the substance or from the psyche/soul, but maybe the substance can teach you some things about spiritual cleansing you were not aware of yet. maybe for the psyche/soul it does not make a difference, by what trigger the body gets purified.

I don't disagree with that.

Imagine that are psychedelic retreat leaders and we have two options: 1) A pure psychedelic without an added purging agent and 2) A pure psychedelic with an added purging agent.

I'm not saying #1 or #2 is necessarily better. If someone wants to do a traditional spiritual/medical cleansing process with purging, then do option #2 with the purging agent. Go for it. Vomit and have diarrhea - cleanse away!

The point is that Ayahuasca is stuck with the vomiting chemical and does not have the option without it. From what I saw in the Ayahuasca retreat, my hunch is that shamans would likely appreciate the option of removing the purging agent. They may not admit this and old-school shamans may insist on using traditional Ayahuasca, yet my hunch is that if given the option, some shamans/leaders would start using the purge-free Ayahuasca at some ceremonies. Perhaps one ceremony per month. I think this would get more and more popular - such that most ceremonies would become purge-free. There would still be special "spiritual cleanse" ceremonies in which the purging agent isn't removed. Yet, I don't think this would be the popular ceremony. . . Ayahuasca ceremonies are absolutely beautiful, yet the purging is just not needed (except for special "spiritual cleanse" ceremonies. Yet I could see having special "spiritual cleanse" ceremonies with the purging agent. . . . The purging can be very stressful and painful to the body. I bet 98% of participants would choose a purge-free trip. 

It's just another way of looking at it. Imagine in an isolated area, a tribal ritual was to have people trip in a snake pit. This was the only type of tripping ceremony available. Tripping meant going through terror and suffering. Then one day, someone asks "What if we had psychedelic ceremonies without the snake pit? Perhaps we could play music and sit around a campfire and trip without getting devoured by snakes?". This would be a radical idea in the tribal tradition and would face resistance. Yet once they trip the snake-free ceremonies, there would be no going back. Yet they may still have occasional "terror and suffering cleanse" ceremonies with the snake pits. Perhaps that would become a "rite of passage" ceremony for teenage tribal members entering adulthood. 

 

 

[remember]

@Serotoninluv well this shaman was in general a little upset about how the holy medicine is prescribed and used - when she did it the first time she prepared for a whole year to also get the full spiritual experience. she also was upset about the fast healing promises and lack of respect about the "madre" how ayahuasca is also called. she said the practice is oftentimes irresponsible. i don`t know but i`m someone who doesn`t like to take all traditions away as i don`t see the sense in a spiritual psychedelic if you take the spiritual completely away from the psychedelic. it remains a psychedelic. or maybe it`s a fast spiritual experience. probably she knows something we don`t know.

Edited December 2, 2019 by remember

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, remember said:

@Serotoninluv i`m someone who doesn`t like to take all traditions away as i don`t see the sense in a spiritual psychedelic if you take the spiritual completely away from the psychedelic. it remains a psychedelic.

"Spiritual" is relative. You are defining "spiritual" as purging. It is spiritual if you create it as such. There is nothing wrong with that. Similarly, the snake pit people may say that the spirit entities only come when people are in terror getting bitten by snakes as they trip. In that relative context, that is what spiritual is. Some may want to preserve the snake pit tradition. If so, that's fine. There are lots of tribal ceremonies that involve extreme pain and suffering. 

Ime experience, I would not consider the purging spiritual - except for one spiritual insight I had. For me, Mother Aya was not associated with the vomiting and diarrhea. It was more like Mother Aya was taking me along a journey and then all of a sudden my digestion system blows up and I'm like "Oh shoot, Mother Aya. Sorry about this, yet I've got to use the toilet for a bit - can you hold on?". . . Of course, I wasn't thinking in those terms during the ceremonies, yet the purging was a distraction. . . Or it would be like hiking toward Machu Picchu and you find out the chocolate candy bar you just ate was actually a diuretic. This would be very distracting to the Machu Picchu experience. It would be a major bummer. . . Again, this is just my experience. Others may embrace the purging. If so, go for it!  

[remember]

@Serotoninluv no i was talking about spiritual cultural heritage. i don`t know about the purging and if the amazonas shamans would remove it. or maybe the special diet is the clue and it`s also what is part of becoming a shaman. maybe mother aya likes that joke if you approach her unprepared.

Edited December 2, 2019 by remember

[outlandish]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

The hard part of mescaline cacti for me was the amount that I needed to ingest. It's hard to get down without water, yet if you add too much water - it expands and I felt bloated. Yet once I got it all down, there was moderate discomfort in my gut for about a half hour, then things settled down. 

I've always eaten it fresh, sounds like you're eating it dry? I wonder if eating it fresh has the advantage of already being "balanced" in terms of water content. I don't remember drinking water being a problem, but I do remember avoiding guzzling water, just because of the sheer volume you're working with. I found it hard to ingest a lot too.

Even without any kind of vomit-purge, it feels like a kind of cleanse. I think some really bitter herbs are used in parts of Chinese Traditional Medicine for a sort of cleansing effect. I know almost nothing about TCM, but I suspect mescaline cacti have some beneficial cleansing effects from the potent bitters (probably not just the mescaline) that might be akin to these bitter chinese herbs.

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Also, it wasn't possessive at all. It was like an all day affair in which I could "leave and take a break for a bit" if I wanted to - and then return to the mystical experience. It was always present, yet I never felt forced into it. . . .San Pedro is the only psychedelic I've done with that dynamic. 

Yes this is a really good description. It's not pushy at all. It really just leaves you be to connect with the universe.

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, remember said:

@Serotoninluv no i was talking about spiritual cultural heritage. 

"Spiritual Cultural Heritage" is also relative. I'm not disagreeing with you. You are pointing at an essence I am acknowledging. There is an essence of spiritual tradition - an essence of spiritual cultural heritage. If that resonates with someone, awesome. If it doesn't resonate with someone else, that's awesome to.

In the future there may be purge-free synthetic 5-meo retreats that are super chill. No purging. No convulsions. No flopping around. Some people may resonate with that. Others may not resonate. They may think "This 5-meo synthetic retreat feels fake to me. There is no spiritual cultural heritage here". For such as person, super. They can find a traditional Ayahuasca retreat with spiritual cultural heritage. . . I would say there was spiritual cultural heritage at the Aya retreat I did in Peru. Yet for me, the purging just didn't resonate with me. For me, the spiritual cultural heritage was more about the beautiful ethereal music, the love, the collective energy, the herbs burned, eating fruit together after the ceremony, integrating lessons the next day and deep conversations with community members. The surrounding mountains. The mysticism of the Sacred Valley. A sense of timeless tradition we were all a part of. Yet for me, the purging just wasn't a big part of it. It was distracting. . . .Yet you have a different relationship with purging and have a different resonance with spiritual cultural heritage. That's totally fine. No two people are the same. 

[remember]

in the link i posted they say stomach problems can be avoided by using th dry powder. or they also recommend to make a syrup/liquid to drink. with recipe.

@Serotoninluv yes i have my experience with purging and i have my experience with people who do 5-meo don`t ask me witch one was more spiritual.

Edited December 2, 2019 by remember

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, outlandish said:

I've always eaten it fresh, sounds like you're eating it dry? 

Yes, it was dry powder. I had to drink some water to get it down. There was so much of it. I felt bloated and moderate discomfort for about a half hour.

5 minutes ago, outlandish said:

Yes this is a really good description. It's not pushy at all. It really just leaves you be to connect with the universe.

This reminds me of a interview I saw with Jerry Garcia - the guitarist for the Grateful Dead. Jerry was talking about some of his experiences with LSD and music. He was asked "What was it like tripping on LSD during a concert?". . . Jerry replied "Tripping during a concert is awful. . . because I'm not allowed to stop playing". . . I was like "omg, I totally get that". 

[electroBeam]

3 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I did an Ayahuasca retreat in Peru and that is what the shaman told us before each ceremony. That the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea was an integral part of the process that helps one expel negative energy and move them toward healing and purification. This was the prevailing view of all long-term members of the community.

Ime, the vast amount of insights and realizations had nothing to do with the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea. Mother Aya was communicating with me and the purging was a distraction. During the retreat I may have had 50 insights, realization and I would say only one was directly related to vomiting. The first ceremony took a huge physical toll on my body. There were two days between ceremonies and I barely recovered. I almost had to pull out of the second ceremony. 

As much as the shamans say this is an integral part of the spiritual journey, I am not convinced. For example, if they discovered tree bark that removed the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, I bet they would start adding in the tree bark while making the Aya brew. Not only is the purging physically stressful, it is a practical nightmare. The temple wrecked of vomit and diarrhea. The toilets area was gross. During the ceremonies, someone occasionally knocked over a vomit bucket. There were cleaning staff that obviously didn't enjoy cleaning up the mess. It was a very unpleasant part of the retreat and I think if coordinators could maintain the trippy part of Aya and remove the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, most would. 

In the future, there will be synthetic 5-meo retreats that involve awakenings without the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea. 

Yeah that's terrible, if only they were open minded to very easy to do, fun, accessible extractions. It just goes to show while these ancient methods have a lot of wisdom to them - much more than western medicine and science, there is so much opportunity to use science to optimise these ancient methods. Maybe that's what thesis projects should be based on? Designing ayahuasca that doesn't make you vomit?? Much more impact that figuring out how to make a faster rocket engine, building a better financial algorithm, etc.

I sort of know what you mean by the unpleasantness. I ate 8 Hawaiian baby wood rose seeds and nothing happened except vomiting, nausea, etc. I sort of took the opportunity to feel and observe the sensations, ask 'why do I feel bad here' and maybe this is what shamans mean by its necessary, because it is valuable to do this - but I was only doing this because I couldn't get rid of the side effects not because it was intentional. When I extracted the HBWR using a polar non polar extract very little to no nausea occurred. It was much better, just fear of death and the present moment for 6 hours hahahah which ironically is much more valuable and insightful. 

[Leo Gura]

To be fair, 5-MeO-DMT has a fairly high bodyload and can also cause nausea. A few times I came close to vomiting but what saved me was having a totally empty stomach.

If you have even a bit of food in your stomach you will vomit it up on a deep trip.

[electroBeam]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

To be fair, 5-MeO-DMT has a fairly high bodyload and can also cause nausea. A few times I came close to vomiting but what saved me was having a totally empty stomach.

If you have even a bit of food in your stomach you will vomit it up on a deep trip.

I don't know but, I think psychedelics that make you enter God mode extremely rapidly (in minutes or seconds) might be undesirable. It freaks the ego out, which distracts you + makes you have a bad trip, if it goes very very very fast you can vomit just from the shear speed of it, and it can dislocate your chakra system (on first HBWS trip I noticed that my chakra system was dislocated/decentralised for a while). Then again if it goes very fast your ego doesn't have time to stop it aswell. Its like being shot to death rather than sliced with a sword. 

[Leo Gura]

@electroBeam Hence the plugging method. It is perfect. Not too fast or overwhemling.

[outlandish]

21 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

To be fair, 5-MeO-DMT has a fairly high bodyload and can also cause nausea. A few times I came close to vomiting but what saved me was having a totally empty stomach.

If you have even a bit of food in your stomach you will vomit it up on a deep trip.

I dunno, I think this is a bit different for everyone. I've had some very deep trips with some food in my stomach without nausea or vomiting. Personally, I tend to need to trip with a bit of food in my stomach, or I get too rattly and feeling emaciated and edgy. I do a lot of running, so I'm constantly recovering and need to replenish my stores even when I'm going down for a psychedelic excursion. 

I do prefer to error on the side of being emptier than full, and eating pretty gentle food beforehand. If I didn't have such a voracious metabolism, I'd probably prefer to fast before the trip because it's a safer bet.

[Eu Sint]

This introduction is necessary because it relates to the account below. At the age of 18 during the New Year's Eve party, I was so drunk that some of my friends, wanting to get me back in the middle of the party, made me a special cocktail that I was going to drink to wake me up. They made me a coffee and in the cup of coffee they then mixed salt, pepper, mustard, vinegar and other spices that they gave me to drink. After I drank, I felt the need to vomit instantly and went to the balcony throwing overboard. This experience was so powerful and traumatic that from that moment I could never vomit since then no matter what substances I took and even if I try to challenge myself. Maybe someone can explain to me a little what happened on the psychological level and what were the causes that led to this blockage of the vomiting action. However, I do not consider it neither bad nor good, it is a normal thing that has not affected the good functioning of the body. After 27 years since then,in my first meeting with Ayahuasca, I was a little worried that I will not be able to vomit as we were told at first, and somehow I will not benefit from that cleansing and experience will not be a proper one. But someone assured me that there is no problem, because Ayahuasca will find her way to clean and where to get out of the body, and if you do not vomit you will definitely reach the toilet using the other way. The whole experience was an intense and profound one, not being disturbed by the need to vomit, and it even lasted longer than the others. Somewhere at 7-8 hours, without headaches or other majors suffering, maybe a little discomfort in the stomach but negligible. For me it was a good thing because I benefited from the full power of Ayahuasca. But when the time of elimination arrived from the body, I felt as if I had a heavy stone inside that it was imperative to cast out. Although I drank ayahuasca on an empty stomach and normally had little to eliminate, it was a lot of shit I had to eliminate. t was a harrowing and painful process for about 30 minutes, as if I was constipated, but after I dropped “the kid in the pool”, I felt a complete improvement and a true release and cleansing of everything that was supposed to would have been negative from my inside. I felt as if I had an entity inside me that I had to get rid of. From my own experience not to vomit during the ceremony is a good thing because it does not interrupt your experience and allows you to explore your consciousness without interruptions by keeping you completely there. Personally I preferred not to eat before ingesting any psychedelic substance and even water to drink as little as possible, so as not to interrupt my trip by taking me to the toilet. Thus I benefited to the full potential of all psychedelics. But considering that we are unique in our own way, I think everyone should listen to their intuition and be quite aware and apply the methods that are less harmful to us.

[Corpus]

Much of the ayahuasca-related purging comes from tannins which enter the brew from the leaf material. Techniques exist to remove these which reduce the vomiting . This can also be largely avoided by using a concentrated caapi extract and extracted DMT.

I personally think that the shamans know their prep is GI irritant, accept that purging is probable and choose to frame this as cathartic, which typically feeds into the expectations of the (Western) drinker. So the idea feeds expectation and manifests as "real".

I have also not found mescaline (as the hydrochloride salt) when extracted from Peruvian Torch to be nauseating but consuming masses of raw/dried cactus would certainly increase the likelihood.