Yellow vs. Orange: Who is Green?

[Forestluv]

It would be more integrated, systemic, relativistic, meta and holistic. We can already see this in AOC and it would be super cool if she transitions full yellow. I’d estimate she is about 15% yellow now. For example, they way she views the Green New Deal has a lot of yellow. She doesn’t have a new age hippy view of saving the threatened animals and environment. She is starting to view climate change from a meta view as an existential threat to humanity. She is integrating multiple components and seeing it systemically. The science, geography, social structures. How climate change impacts biodiversity, yet also food supplies and refugee crises. To go further meta, she explains how GND not only addresses climate change, it also addresses income inequality, toxic capitalism, corruption in politics, racism, etc. This is a yellow level view and solution. It might not be the best solution, yet there are no other proposals out there because nearly all politicians are blue/Orange in the u.s. It would be great to have 5 yellow level proposals, yet we aren’t there yet. Not even close.

[Apparition of Jack]

@Homer My intuition says that the answer would probably lie within the fact that Yellow is the beginning of Tier 2 over Tier 1.

On the surface, Yellow and Green share a lot of values - humanism, environmentalism, sustainability, and so on. However, the difference between the two is the approach they would take to promoting these ideas. Green would start a mass political movement, Green would make badges and get people involved and go on debates with Stage Orange/Blue politicians and find as many Green allies as possible to give themselves the best chance of implementing their vision.

Yellow - and I'm talking true Yellow here, someone who has integrated deeply all the best and worst parts of Green - would probably take a "back seat" position in trying to manage a society. If a true Yellow politician emerged, expect them to still go on debates, but expect that debate to almost turn into a sermon as the Yellow thinker explains fully and cognisantly their big ideas in a way that Blue, Orange and Green people can accept. Instead of trying to start a mass political movement, they would probably harness the existing organs of power and direct them in such a way that they create the maximum level of value for their capabilities. A true Yellow politician would probably also try to avoid the limelight, as their individualist / lone-wolf aspect means they generally prefer to operate on their own terms without being beholden to a large, even if well-meaning, Green community. Also, if they are true Yellow, then it's also possible they'd start to bring mysticism and consciousness into their thinking, as the beginnings of Turquoise start to develop. Whether they'd share that knowledge with the general public or not would be up to them - they could decide either way, depending on what they feel would be the most beneficial to society. 

All of this is just speculation though, I think we've still got a long way to go until anyone of this calibre can come close to holding meaningful mainstream political power. The addition of Marianne Williamson is a unique development in this regard, as she is obviously bringing a lot of Yellow/Turquoise wisdom to the political arena, but I would not consider her true Yellow as she still has a large Orange / Green aspect. 

Also these are just my ideas. How accurate or not they are I cannot aay. 

 

[Key Elements]

I would say an integrated tier 2 person could easily go back and interact with a tier 1 person, or they could understand how a tier 1 person could judge or question them. If a tier 2 person has to work with a tier 1 person, they would have to work around their flaws instead of trying to change them. A tier 2 person will represent himself/herself in a way in which everyone in the tier 1 group will understand when interacting with this person. Yet, the tier 2 person doesn't fall into the trap of being a tier 1 person.

[Lento]

In my opinion, here's the main difference:

Yellow sees the other stages through the lens of 'different-values systems' according to the Spiral Dynamics model. I've underlined the verb 'see' to emphasise that Yellow does not merely understand in theory that there exists other perspectives and that everything is relative, because that's stage Green. It's only at tier two that the understanding becomes concrete and actual rather than just cool theories. In a sense, when the hypocrisy of stage Green gets resolved, they become Yellow.

Orange, on the other hand, does not acknowledge that model in the first place, and they almost completely deny the validity or existence of all the other stages/systems, or if they don't deny it, they try to manipulate it. That's why a stage Orange person can manipulate stage Blue and get triggered by stage Green because they are above their level.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Lento

[Arthur]

On 28/11/2019 at 9:08 PM, Girzo said:

I consider myself being at a high Green - early Yellow level and I love spending time with other Greens. 

I often get triggered by people lower on the Spiral but in a non-serious way, jockingly. I enjoy mocking their ideas, values and shaming them into growth with a smile.

I am highly sceptical of everyone who considers themselves Yellow and can't relate even a little bit to what I have said, also when they prefer to spend time with Orange folks than Green hippies, that also raises my suspicion.

I can relate. People who get triggered by Green are likely at Orange stage of development. It can be a bitter pill to swallow that Green is more evolved. It can build resentment. I don't see Green crusading against Orange as much as the other way around. Green is more up in arms about big issues like wealth ineq. global warming, various rights etc. Green doesn't single out Orange with nicknames like SJW for example.

[Moses]

Interesting discussion guys,
Thank you!

[Scholar]

On 29.11.2019 at 3:55 AM, Serotoninluv said:

It would be more integrated, systemic, relativistic, meta and holistic. We can already see this in AOC and it would be super cool if she transitions full yellow. I’d estimate she is about 15% yellow now. For example, they way she views the Green New Deal has a lot of yellow. She doesn’t have a new age hippy view of saving the threatened animals and environment. She is starting to view climate change from a meta view as an existential threat to humanity. She is integrating multiple components and seeing it systemically. The science, geography, social structures. How climate change impacts biodiversity, yet also food supplies and refugee crises. To go further meta, she explains how GND not only addresses climate change, it also addresses income inequality, toxic capitalism, corruption in politics, racism, etc. This is a yellow level view and solution. It might not be the best solution, yet there are no other proposals out there because nearly all politicians are blue/Orange in the u.s. It would be great to have 5 yellow level proposals, yet we aren’t there yet. Not even close.

I disagree, most of what you have mentioned to me is grounded in orange not yellow. Threat to humanity is not systems thinking, it is contracted collective egoic individualistic thinking. It comes prior to truly caring about the environment and species outside of human beings, it is orange rather than green. Orange would not see a fundamental problem with climate change, environmental destruction and animal suffering as long as it does not effect human beings in some way. The human centric framing of this problem as being an existential threat to mankind, when mankind has been an existential threat for all other species on this planet for hundreds of thousands of years is precisely a hallmark of stage orange limitations. The environment nor other species have been truly included in the ingroup, rather they are still viewed as an extention of value for our own species. True Green would react to the animal holocaust as dramatically as to a human holocaust.

There are virtually no human beings on this planet who fully integrated green. Our cultures are far too strongly weighted at strage blue and orange, it does not allow for a truly green frame of mind to develope. This will be obvious to people living in the 22nd century. The entire spiral dynamics model is limited and everything passed blue/orange are more of first signs of a truely new stage than how it will be viewed from a perspective of a culture which is founded at these stages.

Everyting passed what we consider orange today is a contracted extention of orange which will from the pov of future civilizations be viewed as orange. We currently view these individuals as green, yellow and so on based on the relative distance they take from our current cultural vantage point.

 

Basically from our standard if someone is 5% green they are considered to be extremely green. Much like 500 years ago someone with 5% orange was viewed as radically developed.

However from our pov pretty much every person 500 years ago was almost entirely blue.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Scholar

[Forestluv]

52 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I disagree, most of what you have mentioned to me is grounded in orange not yellow. Threat to humanity is not systems thinking, it is contracted collective egoic individualistic thinking. It comes prior to truly caring about the environment and species outside of human beings, it is orange rather than green. Orange would not see a fundamental problem with climate change, environmental destruction and animal suffering as long as it does not effect human beings in some way. The human centric framing of this problem as being an existential threat to mankind, when mankind has been an existential threat for all other species on this planet for hundreds of thousands of years is precisely a hallmark of stage orange limitations. The environment nor other species have been truly included in the ingroup, rather they are still viewed as an extention of value for our own species. True Green would react to the animal holocaust as dramatically as to a human holocaust.

I agree that the vast majority of humans are human-centric. Imo, this a deeper level than self-centric or ethno-centric. 

I don’t think the threat to humanity is systems thinking. Rather, I would say the threat to humanity is within  systems thinking. It is not the system, yet is part of the system. Yellow would have a meta view to this threat to humanity.

I agree that Orange is contracted within individualistic thinking. Green transcends that somewhat, and places more emphasis on collective. This collective orientation can be contracted within humanism or include non-human forms. There are many different expressions. Trans-human consciousness is not a requirement of green or yellow, although aspects of it can appear in green/yellow. Deep Trans-human embodiment is a very high conscious level at Turquoise. There are plenty of human-centric orientations with green and yellow - as well as trans-human orientations. I would say someone like AOC has more of a human-centered approach. Others are less human oriented - someone like Peter Singer or Jane Goodall.

And it’s not just with climate change. Most religion/spirituality is human centric. 99% of spirituality I see is contextualized within humanness. I see many human ideas of enlightenment and human enlightened masters. Funny how all these ideas are relative to humans. Rarely do I see someone try to express insights of enlightenment they lined through their enlightened tree, butterfly, wind or river teacher. An exception would be something Ike Native American spirituality.

52 minutes ago, Scholar said:

There are virtually no human beings on this planet who fully integrated green. Our cultures are far too strongly weighted at strage blue and orange, it does not allow for a truly green frame of mind to develope. This will be obvious to people living in the 22nd century. The entire spiral dynamics model is limited and everything passed blue/orange are more of first signs of a truely new stage than how it will be viewed from a perspective of a culture which is founded at these stages.

Everyting passed what we consider orange today is a contracted extention of orange which will from the pov of future civilizations be viewed as orange. We currently view these individuals as green, yellow and so on based on the relative distance they take from our current cultural vantage point.

You can contextualize the spiral like that, yet imo the standards are too high for Green. Rather than “True green”, I think you are pointing into Ter 2, especially Turquoise. And I agree that there are very very few people that have realized and embodied trans-human consciousness. 

I envision the future a bit different than you. Currently, I think a lot of people have a certain image of what a yellow is like and a certain image of what Turquoise looks like. Yet when someone enters Yellow and Turquoise, they may be amazed by how many different flavors of expression there is. When there are a lot of people at Yellow/Turquoise with lots of different expressions, I think a lot of different nuances and details will be revealed. Yellow/Turquoise will get updated and may get divided up into subcategories. There are few people in Tier2 conceptualizing what Yellow/Turquoise is. Look how much nuance and detail  Leo has added - and that is just one person. Imagine one million Tier2 Leos working on Yellow/Turquoise constructs. We can even imagine what nuances/details will be revealed. 

 

[Nickyy]

On 28/11/2019 at 11:15 PM, Homer said:

And that confusion can lead to a trap: Orange might judge themselves as being Yellow, believing that they're just keeping a "healthy Yellow" distance to Green, while in reality, they're Orange and afraid to develop into Green themselves! 

 

On 29/11/2019 at 2:21 AM, Homer said:

As is also the case with Leo, it seems. But as he has kept pointing out, rationality also has its limitations, giving way to broader ways of looking at reality. But going beyond the rational isn't possible from Orange's perspective, who sees pre-rational (Blue) thinking as the only alternative. That is pretty funny.

Yellow thinks rationally. It integrates orange because green disowned orange.

That's why sometimes yellow can be mistaken for orange and orange can mistake itself for yellow. But a true yellow would have developed a strong sense of conscience and that carries forward into 2nd tier.

[DrewNows]

Tier 1 still assumes reality to be static rather than kinetic or in motion. Tier 2 is not caught up in over rational mumbojumbo of thought and positions

yellow sees through all but turquoise, which I don’t see as visible in the same sense as tier 1; also yellow doesn’t morally judge although may appear to and meets at the appropriate level while orange may feel threatened, annoyed, or simply turned off by a green perspective, feeling unable to relate statically speaking