Yellow vs. Orange: Who is Green?

[Homer]

Hey guys, I would be really interested in hearing about your perspective on this. How does a Stage Yellow person perceive Stage Green compared to how a Stage Orange person perceives Stage Green? 

[Commodent]

Yellow integrates Green, whereas Orange does not. That is really the main difference.

So someone stuck in Orange will perceive Green as reprehensible and "wrong", while someone in Yellow will (more or less) consider Green an important component of who they are. In other words, yellow will see Green as an important part of the whole, and will thus see its limitations with more clarity and compassion than someone stuck in Orange.

[Forestluv]

@Homer You might be interested in Leo’s SD series. He addresses your question.

[Homer]

Yeah obviously, I've seen the videos. But what are the implications of these "conflicting" points of view? And could a stage Yellow person open Stage Orange's eyes and help them see that Green is the next stage in their development? 

[Commodent]

Quote

• Orange may experience Green as unfocused, woolly and not much focused on results. The Green consensus culture may bother Orange a lot, as it yields little progress. Moreover, Orange thinks Green is excessively occupied with feelings and human inner emotional layers. According to Orange, there are also other factors that enable a person and/or an organization to function as it does.
• Yellow thinks Green assumes that her truth is the only truth and may accuse Green to not acknowledge the real essence of each value system. Yellow experiences Green to be too group-focused leaving relatively little space for the individual freedom. Yellow may be bothered about Green talking about everything and having opinions about it, but not acting on it in a concrete way.

Source: http://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/green/

[Homer]

3 minutes ago, Commodent said:

Yellow experiences Green to be too group-focused leaving relatively little space for the individual freedom. Yellow may be bothered about Green talking about everything and having opinions about it, but not acting on it in a concrete way.

3 minutes ago, Commodent said:

Reading this, I imagine how someone with Stage Orange values relate. It seems to me it's just really hard to distinguish between the Yellow and the Orange perspective on Green, which may cause confusion. 

 

[Homer]

And that confusion can lead to a trap: Orange might judge themselves as being Yellow, believing that they're just keeping a "healthy Yellow" distance to Green, while in reality, they're Orange and afraid to develop into Green themselves! 

[Commodent]

1 minute ago, Homer said:

Reading this, I imagine how someone with Stage Orange values relate. It seems to me it's just really hard to distinguish between the Yellow and the Orange perspective on Green, which may cause confusion.

Orange and Yellow both share the trait in common in that they are both individualistic, so the collectivism of Green is really something people in both systems will find limiting. I think one important distinction is that Orange might harshly judge Green, while Yellow does not look down upon Green in and of itself. Yellow generally doesn't judge as judgment is usually a sign of lacking integration. However, it can certainly make observations. So the attitude is very different.

15 minutes ago, Homer said:

And could a stage Yellow person open Stage Orange's eyes and help them see that Green is the next stage in their development? 

Yes, a stage Yellow person might open a stage Orange person up to Green by showing him the results and material success it will bring to move into Green. Like, by making sure that everyone feel included in the workplace your employees will make less trouble and you will be able to attract more talent.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Homer said:

could a stage Yellow person open Stage Orange's eyes and help them see that Green is the next stage in their development? 

Of course. That’s part of the evolution.
The efficiency depends on the resistance of the Orange and the skill of the yellow.

Yet there are very few yellow-level teachers. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Homer said:

And that confusion can lead to a trap: Orange might judge themselves as being Yellow, believing that they're just keeping a "healthy Yellow" distance to Green, while in reality, they're Orange and afraid to develop into Green themselves! 

Of course.

Very common trap.

Lots of Green shadow on display these days.

[Girzo]

I consider myself being at a high Green - early Yellow level and I love spending time with other Greens. 

I often get triggered by people lower on the Spiral but in a non-serious way, jockingly. I enjoy mocking their ideas, values and shaming them into growth with a smile.

I am highly sceptical of everyone who considers themselves Yellow and can't relate even a little bit to what I have said, also when they prefer to spend time with Orange folks than Green hippies, that also raises my suspicion.

[Homer]

Green is often described with having a "lazy hippie" quality - they care and have opinions, but don't act in a well-organized manner. From Oranges perspective then yes, Green has a loving and caring outlook on things, but what good is wanting to save the planet when you can't even get your own act together? 

How come you lose the ability to get things done when you go from Orange to Green? Can't someone go through Green, acquiring qualities toward the feminine end of the scale, without becoming lazy and crippled? What is it in Stage Green that requires this great sacrifice?

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, Homer said:

Green is often described with having a "lazy hippie" quality - they care and have opinions, but don't act in a well-organized manner. From Oranges perspective then yes, Green has a loving and caring outlook on things, but what good is wanting to save the planet when you can't even get your own act together? 

How come you lose the ability to get things done when you go from Orange to Green? Can't someone go through Green, acquiring qualities toward the feminine end of the scale, without becoming lazy and crippled? What is it in Stage Green that requires this great sacrifice?

This caricature is not representative of all green. For example, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez is as green as it gets and a good example of highly organized and productive green. Green has many expressions, including highly organized, motivated and productive.

It’s like asking “what is it about Orange that makes them self-indulgent booze hounds that just want to get laid and rip people off in the stock market?”

[Homer]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This caricature is not representative of all green. For example, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez is as green as it gets and she is highly organized and productive. Green has many expressions, including highly organized, motivated and productive expressions. 

Good point. I guess what we need for society to develop is more people like AOC, showing Orange minded people that you don't have to be lazy to be loving. Now, what is it then about these productive Green people that Orange feels the need to ridicule? 

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, Homer said:

you don't have to be lazy to be loving.

Where did you get that idea from? There is no correlation between laziness and lovingness. My goodness, there a many many people that are highly active and loving. Loving isn’t just about hanging out in a forest smoking weed, singing and dancing.

11 minutes ago, Homer said:

Now, what is it then about these productive Green people that Orange feels the need to ridicule? 

Orange resists what productive Green people are trying to produce. Just look at the Orange resistance and ridicule to AOC. What is it that she is trying to produce that Orange doesn’t like?. . . . Look at corporate dems resistance to Bernie Sanders. What is it are the values and policies of Bernie that establishment corporate dems don’t like?

Consider the green values that underlie the personality. There was resistance to MLK similar to resistance to AOC.

[Homer]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Where did you get that idea from? There is no correlation between laziness and lovingness. My goodness, there a many many people that are highly active and loving.

I know, I know. I don't hold that belief, I guess I'm just confused trying to make sense of the Orange resistance to Green. Up untill this point I've looked at it as a skepticism toward their inability to get things done, but it seems you have enlightened me. 

17 minutes ago, Homer said:

Green has many expressions, including highly organized, motivated and productive expressions. 

Now, when it comes to this: What separates these expressions of Green from Yellow? In what way is Yellow more conscious in their decision making? 

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, Homer said:

I know, I know. I don't hold that belief, I guess I'm just confused trying to make sense of the Orange resistance to Green. Up untill this point I've looked at it as a skepticism toward their inability to get things done, but it seems you have enlightened me. 

I may have misunderstood you. I didn’t realize you were playing devils advocate. Yes, from the perspective of Orange, green may appear as is lazy, unproductive and clueless. I would add in irrational. My biggest resistance to green was that it seemed very irrational and woo woo. I was very rational, analytical and scientific. I was really turned off by what I perceived as the irrationality of green.

 

[Homer]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

My biggest resistance to green was that it seemed very irrational and woo woo. I was very rational, analytical and scientific.

As is also the case with Leo, it seems. But as he has kept pointing out, rationality also has its limitations, giving way to broader ways of looking at reality. But going beyond the rational isn't possible from Orange's perspective, who sees pre-rational (Blue) thinking as the only alternative. That is pretty funny.

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Homer said:

As is also the case with Leo, it seems. But as he has kept pointing out, rationality also has its limitations, giving way to broader ways of looking at reality. But going beyond the rational isn't possible from Orange's perspective, who sees pre-rational (Blue) thinking as the only alternative. That is pretty funny.

Yes. It’s very hard to see the limits of rationality while contracted within rationality. Yet once you go post-rational, you never go back.

[Homer]

Yeah. Anyway I'm still curious about this Green/Yellow thing: What would a Yellow politician do that Bernie or AOC doesn't from their Green perspective?  Might they not be Yellow? The US democratic system (which seems like quite a difficult framework to work within) doesn't leave that many alternatives, does it? What would Yellow do differently?