Should Enlightened Teachers focus on teaching individuals rather than mass teaching?

[LfcCharlie4]

@NormanN If you want an optimum method to teach I would say 1-1, I gained nothing but prep before working with my teacher 1-1, this includes a transmission, which I believe is the most effective teaching when a seeker is ready, so relatively speaking I believe these have 'higher value', however this doesn't mean mass and group teachings have 0 value, just less effective in my opinion. 

I doubt someone will become fully self realized just by going to retreats and reading books, for example Rupert says how he sees similar faces at his retreats, Adya said at his old Zen centre hardly anyone was actually enlightened and if they were a business and enlightenment= profit they'd be out of business quick!

If you're asking me what I recommend, find a teacher(s) you resonate with, learn from them, and when you are ready find a teacher who gives transmissions, as this has what has worked for me. 

I'm guessing as most here your path is psyches?

[Angelite]

"To sit face to face with a sage for a moment, is better than other practices (done for a very long time)."

If they have died, reading their words works too. 

[Angelite]

It will feel like they are speaking to you right in front of you. Answering you exactly what you needed to know. It's very specific. 

 

[Angelite]

Talking about spiritual teachers, our conversations are always about Allah and It's creations. I don't worship them neither do they wanna be worshipped. We're always speaking about Allah. (Apart from practical advices). 

 

Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth, but must come to The Most Gracious as a servant . [Sūrat Maryam (Mary) 19:93]

And everyone of them will come to Him singly(alone) on the Day of Judgement. [19:94]

On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will The Most Gracious bestow Love*. [19:95]

*His own love, and the love of man's fellow creatures, in this world and in the Hereafter. Goodness breeds love and peace, and sin breeds hatred and contention. 

 

(Mushaf Al-Madinah An-Nabawiyah , King Fahd Holy Qur-ān.) 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Angelite

[Angelite]

2 hours ago, Angelite said:

 

Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth, but must come to The Most Gracious as a servant . [Sūrat Maryam (Mary) 19:93]

And everyone of them will come to Him singly(alone) on the Day of Judgement. [19:94]

On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will The Most Gracious bestow Love*. [19:95]

*His own love, and the love of man's fellow creatures, in this world and in the Hereafter. Goodness breeds love and peace, and sin breeds hatred and contention. 

 

(Mushaf Al-Madinah An-Nabawiyah , King Fahd Holy Qur-ān.) 

Wait I actually got it wrong?

19. Sūrat Maryam (Mary)

Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth, but must come to The Most Gracious as a servant . [19:93]

He does take account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly*. [19:94]

And everyone of them will come to Him singly(alone) on the Day of Judgement. [19:95]

On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will The Most Gracious bestow Love**. [19:96]

 

*Allah has no sons or favourites or parasites, such as we associate with human beings. On the other hand every creature of His gets His love, and His cherishing care. Everyone of them, however humble, is individually marked before His Throne of Justice and Mercy, and will stand before Him on his own deserts. 

**His own love, and the love of man's fellow creatures, in this world and in the Hereafter. Goodness breeds love and peace, and sin breeds hatred and contention. 

 

(Mushaf Al-Madinah An-Nabawiyah , King Fahd Holy Qur-ān.) 

Hehe

Edited November 29, 2019 by Angelite

[NormanN]

13 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@NormanN If you want an optimum method to teach I would say 1-1, I gained nothing but prep before working with my teacher 1-1, this includes a transmission, which I believe is the most effective teaching when a seeker is ready, so relatively speaking I believe these have 'higher value', however this doesn't mean mass and group teachings have 0 value, just less effective in my opinion. 

I doubt someone will become fully self realized just by going to retreats and reading books, for example Rupert says how he sees similar faces at his retreats, Adya said at his old Zen centre hardly anyone was actually enlightened and if they were a business and enlightenment= profit they'd be out of business quick!

If you're asking me what I recommend, find a teacher(s) you resonate with, learn from them, and when you are ready find a teacher who gives transmissions, as this has what has worked for me. 

I'm guessing as most here your path is psyches?

Okay so optimum method in your opinion is still 1-to-1 followed by a genuine transmission at the correct time.

That suggests to me two things. Firstly, as individuals, we are generally powerless to progress without direction and guidance which is directly relevant to us. It suggests that consistent progress is made by seekers only when there is a direct external influence on them to help them break out of their inertia. Secondly, as a consequence of the first point, human beings are actually reliant on their connection with others in order to progress. That’s quite clever because it forces seekers to swallow their pride and ask for help, something which can be quite difficult to admit to oneself. 
 

I’ve done lots of inner work, and I generally lean away from things like transmissions because they don’t make sense to me. I’ve experienced what @Angelite spoke about as presence, but it seems quite normal and natural to me to be affected by the inner state of someone else. For me, it’s transmissions which seem like a strange idea. I know stories about transmissions are littered throughout spiritual culture, but I am always doubtful of any powers in those stories, particularly those which are able to awaken someone, wielded by only a certain few. It seems like a subtle power game to me of ‘I gave you Enkightenment’.

[Angelite]

@NormanN Ayy I actually haven't answered you.

On 11/28/2019 at 1:47 PM, NormanN said:

@LfcCharlie4 thanks for your opinion on this. I’m certainly with you that one-to-one is the best way forward for quality personal guidance on an individual’s journey. You say RASA transformed your existential experience, which is fantastic, and I’m certainly open to the idea that there methods other than words which can create existential changes in people, akin to what you have said about presence @Angelite.

Perhaps we could say then that there are many methods of teaching, and that each method is helpful for different reasons. Whether a method is suitable for an individual at one time or another is up to them to decide because they must be open to receive it. 

As per my original question in this topic, maybe we could say then that more teachers teaching one-to-one is the way forward to help people to gain more value from the time they spend learning from Enlightened teachers, both in terms of the personal verbal tuition an individual receives and also the access and exposure to non-verbal teachings through methods like RASA and presence.

Would you both agree with that?

I don't know what RASA is , or the names and methods you've mentioned in this thread.

But here's my experience ; 

A real teacher will know exactly what to teach in mass crowd and individually. They will look at the crowd. What's the best thing to teach at that specific moment for the specific crowd.

Individually would be different. Small group will be slightly different. 

Some guru, can answer me before I asked.

Some, I saw his light. I know I can trust him.

Some can listen to my inner talk even from far away. It's funny. I said I don't understand arabic, and he switch to my language. He knows what I did the night before. 

Gurus will teach people differently. Based on their student's levels. They know exactly what is best to teach you at a specific moment. It will be precise. 

 

The truly learned guide is a sheep, not a bird; he gives his knowledge altruistically. For the sheep gives its lamb, digested, pure milk; Whereas the bird gives its chick regurgitated vomit.

 -Said Nursi-

 

But it is important to know that they are just a guide, it is God who sent all these beings to me, or me to them, for me to learn about Him through these people. It's a blessing. 

Edit : If God give you a blessing, and you don't appreciate your blessings, you'll be cursed. 

...

Random Wisdom 

[11:9] And if  We give man a taste  (of)Mercy from Us, and then We withdraw it from him,  indeed, he (is) in despair  (and) ungrateful*.

So, we need to be grateful regardless of everything. And  not give up from God's Mercy when something is taken away from us. 

[11:10] But, if  We give him a taste (of) favor after hardship (has) touched him, surely he will say ; "Have gone the evils from me **." indeed, he falls into exultation and pride.

[11:11] Except those who (are) patient and do the good deeds ***, those for them (will be) forgiveness and a reward great. 

 

*He does not realize that some kinds of chastening are good for discipline and the training of our spiritual faculties.

**He takes it as a matter of course, or as due to his own merit or cleverness. He does not realize that both in good and ill fortune, there is a beneficent purpose in the Plan of Allah. 

***Their attitude is the right one: to take ill-fortune with fortitude and good fortune with humility, and in either case go on persevering in good deeds to their fellow-creatures. 

(Sahih International translation & King Fahd Holy Qur-ān.)

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Angelite

[JustThinkingAloud]

We all have unique personalities so if you want a really good advice, it's better to get a personalised advice. The problem is that an enlightened person can help the most by targeting the most people he/she can but then the advice has to be generalised and it's up to each person to customise it to their own circumstances.

So to answer your question, from your point of view you're better off getting personalised advice. From everyone's point of view to utilize the wisdom of an enlightened person, it's better to do mass teachings.

Also another option could be for an enlightened person to train other people that could train other people etc. This way the teaching could be more individualised but then the corruption can still happen.

Oh well, perfection doesn't exist, I suppose it's all about balancing it well.

[LfcCharlie4]

@JustThinkingAloud When training others you have to be careful, many of those with organizations have trained people who are clearly not enlightened and this dilutes the teaching, luckily with RASA they only 'train' people to give it once they have completely finished seeking, reached LOC 1000 and began their integration process, but I guess that's different as it's not the person giving the transmission. 

@NormanN It's not completely black and white, but I would say yes 1-1 with transmissions for those ready is ideal, but like I said whatever you resonate with go with that, really it doesn't matter what's best for everyone but what's best for you.

[NormanN]

3 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@JustThinkingAloud When training others you have to be careful, many of those with organizations have trained people who are clearly not enlightened and this dilutes the teaching, luckily with RASA they only 'train' people to give it once they have completely finished seeking, reached LOC 1000 and began their integration process, but I guess that's different as it's not the person giving the transmission. 

@NormanN It's not completely black and white, but I would say yes 1-1 with transmissions for those ready is ideal, but like I said whatever you resonate with go with that, really it doesn't matter what's best for everyone but what's best for you.

Thanks for your input @LfcCharlie4, @Angelite and @JustThinkingAloud. Maybe the best way to summarise our opinions here is to say that a teacher teaches in the best way for them to express themselves individually and that the seeker can choose to learn from a teacher or teaching which suits them the best.

This perspective gives both the teacher and the seeker the volition to teach and learn in the best way for them without the need for there to be a hierarchy of who teaches what and who teaches best. From this stance, we can accept all teachers and the choices of other seekers without the need to judge or rank them. 

Does that seem like the best way to answer my initial question?

[LfcCharlie4]

Yes it seems like the best way overall, but just not complete. 

I would just add like in any field, some teachers will be 'better' at their job than others, so just keep that in mind, just because it's non-duality doesn't mean all teachers are created equal is all I will say. 

Do your research, find one or a couple you resonate with and learn and emobody all you can from them, but always remember you are your own guru and don't follow them like a robot. For example they might be celibate, but that doesn't mean you have to be (common in more eastern teachings!) 

I can recommend my own teachers as they are the ones who have made me progress 1000000x more than any others, but their methods may not work for you.

[NormanN]

21 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Yes it seems like the best way overall, but just not complete. 

I would just add like in any field, some teachers will be 'better' at their job than others, so just keep that in mind, just because it's non-duality doesn't mean all teachers are created equal is all I will say. 

Do your research, find one or a couple you resonate with and learn and emobody all you can from them, but always remember you are your own guru and don't follow them like a robot. For example they might be celibate, but that doesn't mean you have to be (common in more eastern teachings!) 

I can recommend my own teachers as they are the ones who have made me progress 1000000x more than any others, but their methods may not work for you.

When we say a teacher is ‘better’ than another, I think we have to be careful with that. I know what you mean, some teachers are more knowledgable and have a deeper understanding, while others can be dogmatic or manipulative.

Nonetheless, a person who is attracted to the latter category may well make enormous progress through them, simply because their attraction to what can only be described as a ‘toxic teacher’  will come into friction with their aversion to those toxic traits, and that friction will force that individual to grow, They may not make the same level of progress by sticking to ‘safe teachers’ if they are still attracted to the more volatile and charismatic personalities often present in ‘toxic teachers’.

I do agree though that any individual should always put their own needs and instincts first, and should not be drawn into any teaching or to any teacher for any other reason other than making a conscious decision to do so.

[LfcCharlie4]

@NormanN  Yeah I guess, but then you also run the risk of being sucked into a cult like organization e.g. Mooji/ Bentino, you can still learn from them and if you feel drawn to them I guess go with them, but I think while you need to be careful it's simply fact some teachers are better at their job than others. 

 

[NormanN]

1 hour ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@NormanN  Yeah I guess, but then you also run the risk of being sucked into a cult like organization e.g. Mooji/ Bentino, you can still learn from them and if you feel drawn to them I guess go with them, but I think while you need to be careful it's simply fact some teachers are better at their job than others. 

 

I’m not sure you can state that as fact. Sure there are better teachers at different stages on a person’s journey, and some teachers may be almost useless for the serious seeker altogether, but there is so much more to Enlightenment than just pure non-duality. The full flowering of the Enlightenment process cannot be boiled down to just ‘realising the self’. Although that is a key part of it, there is so much more to that process which very good, pure non-duality teachers often fail to address because they are so centred on that subject alone. This is where other teachers step in who can enrich a seekers understanding of all aspects of their being and life.

[Elisabeth]

@NormanN It also depends on the teacher's preferences. Giving a lecture vs. one on one individual work are very different experiences. Teachers are also allowed to choose their style of work.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't read the thread. It has been said already. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Elisabeth

[LfcCharlie4]

@NormanN Yes I completely agree, but if a teacher decides to specialise in pure self realisation e.g. Ramana Maharshi and that’s all his students want that’s great! 

However, for me I wanted more as a westerner. Ramaji and Ananda Base their teaching on LOC 1000/ Self Realization, but cover a HUGE range of topics in the 1-1 sessions and satsangs.

I don’t know anyone covering things like Sex& owning your sexuality as a self realised person, relationships, manifestation, life after awakening etc, I’m obviously biased but in terms of the full picture they’re pretty good.

they still have blind spots, for example you wouldn’t go to them for nutrition advice as that isn’t an area they have mastered but in terms of self realisation as a westerner and a Tantric approach to life it’s pretyy amazing.

[NormanN]

8 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@NormanN Yes I completely agree, but if a teacher decides to specialise in pure self realisation e.g. Ramana Maharshi and that’s all his students want that’s great! 

However, for me I wanted more as a westerner. Ramaji and Ananda Base their teaching on LOC 1000/ Self Realization, but cover a HUGE range of topics in the 1-1 sessions and satsangs.

I don’t know anyone covering things like Sex& owning your sexuality as a self realised person, relationships, manifestation, life after awakening etc, I’m obviously biased but in terms of the full picture they’re pretty good.

they still have blind spots, for example you wouldn’t go to them for nutrition advice as that isn’t an area they have mastered but in terms of self realisation as a westerner and a Tantric approach to life it’s pretyy amazing.

Well then you’ve found a very good teacher for where you’re at @LfcCharlie4 which is fantastic! 

I think the Enlightenment industry is one of those places where you can find such a variety in the styles and emphasis of different services/teachings. Sure, you do get a wide range of quality and personality types, but it is a very rich environment where you will always find whatever it is you need from one individual or another. The whole world becomes a place of learning for a seeker, and that is really special.

Ultimately though, as we’ve said previously, it all comes back to You and what is going on inside You. There is no greater source of the knowledge of being than your own being, and every teacher, no matter what it is they bring to you, is only a guide along the way.

[LfcCharlie4]

@NormanN yes that’s exactly right! 

If any teacher tries to tell you need them and that you must listen to them, I see that as a major red flag usually, even enlightened beings can be narcissists and have huge issues still! 

Like I said enlightenment doesn’t mean full self realization and in my experience it is clear there are various stages and depths to awakening. 

And then there’s integration which is a whole other ball game! 

[NormanN]

33 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Like I said enlightenment doesn’t mean full self realization and in my experience it is clear there are various stages and depths to awakening. 

And then there’s integration which is a whole other ball game! 

I think that’s a common misconception about the process too, that there is an end to it.

Even the greatest sages of all time never reached ‘completion’ or ‘perfection’, and that is such an important thing to understand. Teachers are learning as much every single day, if not more than, their students, and it is far too easy to fall into the trap of idolising teachers as perfect beings.

There isn’t an end to the journey, we just become more and more independent in our learning, more focused on learning from the actual experience of ourselves. 

[LfcCharlie4]

@NormanN yes sorry what I meant is there is a definite end to seeking where you are fully at rest in the absolute and seeking is over, and life can truly begin.

of course there is an ever deepening to life and your work and your work on a human level as this doesn’t end until you die of course! 

 But there is a definite end to the seeking part of this journey, or what would you be seeking? That end is full self realisation and stabilisation in the self. 

If you wanna read about that check out Raman, Nisgardatta and Ramaji.