My niece's behaviour

[Buba]

My niece is 4 years old and her behaviour concerns me. She is very fake, aggressive and weird. She is not like a year ago, when she was curious, authentic and lovely.

My sister is very aggressive and has been scolding her daughter since her very first days. Me and my sister were scolded and beaten a lot by our mother when were a child. I was also harsh against her.

So my niece fakes laughing, crying, playing - everything. She meets me with a fake look as if she is an actress. I try to talk to her. She does not like talking normally, only games. We talked twice and in each time she said she is a bad girl, a shit, and idiot. I said no, you are not, why do you think so? She said an old man said it when I was small. In our first conversation she said an old man, she said I can draw his picture, but he drew a woman and said actually not an old man but an old woman said all these things. And in our second conversation she said an old woman said she is shit, idiot, bad. Even when I am writing this I feel so bad I want to cry. It breaks my heart. I dont want her to suffer like me. I have never seen a child like her, she looks like possessed. As if it is not her talking, moving. She is so addicted to stimuli, she does not sit still. She wants either chocolate or cartoon or playing or something else. 

Also she hits her 10-months-old little sister. She would actually kill her if we were not nearby. I asked dont you love your sister, she said she does. I said why do you then hit her, she said because she likes it.

Her behaviour gets worse and it worsens my sister's attitude towards her, and my sister's attitude worsens my niece's state, so there is a vicious cycle. 

She is just 4 years old. I think it is not too late, we can fix it. But I dont know how. My sister will take her to psychotherapist, but I dont trust them. They never could help me.

What is going on with her? What can be done to heal her?

[Raptorsin7]

@Buba Your sister sounds like she is abusing the child. You need to have a conversation with your sister and air our everything. Your sister is probably raising her daughter a lot like you were raised. Is your sister mentally disturbed from what happened to you two as a child? It is likely your sister, or her husband (idk you did not mention him) are physically and vocally abusing your niece so she's developing her own psychological issues. I would recommend talking to your sister, and maybe find someone else in your family who is responsible to discuss this with. 

[Buba]

36 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Buba Your sister sounds like she is abusing the child. You need to have a conversation with your sister and air our everything. Your sister is probably raising her daughter a lot like you were raised. Is your sister mentally disturbed from what happened to you two as a child? It is likely your sister, or her husband (idk you did not mention him) are physically and vocally abusing your niece so she's developing her own psychological issues. I would recommend talking to your sister, and maybe find someone else in your family who is responsible to discuss this with. 

Actually my sister and her husband are not always aggressive towards her. Generally, they ask her not to do (or to do) something and she refuses, then they repeat their order and she refuses, even sometimes ignores them, then they get aggressive, scream, scold her, sometimes gently hit her. In other times they are very friendly to their daughter, they care her, take to walks, buy toys, show their love and etc. I talked to my sister about this issue, but did not want to directly accuse her in her daughter’s state. Because I know how hard it is for her, I know how inpatient we people be, my niece can drive crazy almost everyone, she really does not listen. But I talked to my sister and said that our aggression to her daughter resulted in her being aggressive and etc. My sister became sad and felt guilty. She said I know, I want to control myself but I cannot, I turn into beast mode. But I noticed it is not just unconscious behavior. She also has beliefs that child should be punished for misbehavior. She believes it works. I said it has not worked yet as you see, she said because she was not consistent in punishment. I cant persuade her, because when she says ok, what should I do then when she does not listen, I don’t know what to say. I don’t have any tips how to raise a child. I really do not know how could it be done otherwise.

[Raptorsin7]

@Buba That is a very difficult situation. If you love your niece then i would recommend visiting as often as possible and try and be a positive role model to her. Also, try and show your sister evidence of what will happen if she continues to raise her child like that. I wish i could be of more help, but I don't have much experience with situations like this. I would suggest visiting a reddit forum about child abuse and anti-social behavior in children to get a better perspective on your situation.

[Buba]

24 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Buba That is a very difficult situation. If you love your niece then i would recommend visiting as often as possible and try and be a positive role model to her. Also, try and show your sister evidence of what will happen if she continues to raise her child like that. I wish i could be of more help, but I don't have much experience with situations like this. I would suggest visiting a reddit forum about child abuse and anti-social behavior in children to get a better perspective on your situation.

What would you do if your child did not listen to you? 

[Raptorsin7]

@Buba Find out why they aren't listening. Talk to them, figure out what is going on with them. If they are not listening there is either a problem with what's being asked of them, or there is a problem with the person asking, or there is a problem with the kid. Happy children are likely to be behave. My first thing would be to see if my kid was happy, and there was no underlying pathology going on. 

[Buba]

1 hour ago, Keyhole said:

What is going on with your avatar there?
It looks like a stuffed animal with a penis.
You should change it, that's gross.

@Leo Gura

I did not have a lot of pictures in my computer and did want to upload a picture from internet. I bought it from Amsterdam and find it funny.

[remember]

6 hours ago, Buba said:

My sister will take her to psychotherapist, but I dont trust them. They never could help me.

yes, that would be a very wise move! and while at your siter should also go to a psychotherapist. the problem seems to be created through codependencies and a history of child abuse, which has to be stopped in the grown ups first. you can`t let the child sit out the problems the grown ups don`t know how to fix or don`t even admit - as you say there is even a second child, so do you want to send that child to psychotherapy as well? because some grown ups behave as if the child could solve their problems? if you are a codependent you might also be a person who does not act on the severeness of the case, so i would talk to someone about it who knows what to do in a case like that.

i don`t know how severe it is but if a person can`t stop harming their children, the children are maybe better off in foster care... a child is not an item people own and use as a trash bin. love for human beings means not doing in sense of harm but doing in sense of help.

the severeness of the situation you already figured that out by comparing it with your own pain. as a grown up it`s sad that you can`t help your small self anymore but you can help another person, even if that maybe means hurting your sister by telling on her to youth care. in the case if it involves sexual abuse, maybe it even means more justice for the child than you want to think about at the moment, it also means to act against people who harmed her and judge and let others judge about your own doing or not doing if you are involved. that would probably also give some justice to your small self, maybe it would help you more than the psychotherapy that never helped you.

a person is not like a vase you let fall intentionally and then you try to glue it and feel helpless that it`s not what it was before. you just don`t let it fall - and if you did and are aware of it, make sure that this never ever happens again by removing the source of the harm. seems radical? yes on that be radically honest with yourself.

the symbolism and undertone in this thread is not only gross it is giving me the chills.

Edited November 26, 2019 by remember
@keyhole, your signature is also gross. after i read about the symbol second meaning of actualized org it seems to follow a pattern.

[Buba]

1 hour ago, remember said:

yes, that would be a very wise move! and while at your siter should also go to a psychotherapist. the problem seems to be created through codependencies and a history of child abuse, which has to be stopped in the grown ups first. you can`t let the child sit out the problems the grown ups don`t know how to fix or don`t even admit - as you say there is even a second child, so do you want to send that child to psychotherapy as well? because some grown ups behave as if the child could solve their problems? if you are a codependent you might also be a person who does not act on the severeness of the case, so i would talk to someone about it who knows what to do in a case like that.

i don`t know how severe it is but if a person can`t stop harming their children, the children are maybe better off in foster care... a child is not an item people own and use as a trash bin. love for human beings means not doing in sense of harm but doing in sense of help.

the severeness of the situation you already figured that out by comparing it with your own pain. as a grown up it`s sad that you can`t help your small self anymore but you can help another person, even if that maybe means hurting your sister by telling on her to youth care. in the case if it involves sexual abuse, maybe it even means more justice for the child than you want to think about at the moment, it also means to act against people who harmed her and judge and let others judge about your own doing or not doing if you are involved. that would probably also give some justice to your small self, maybe it would help you more than the psychotherapy that never helped you.

a person is not like a vase you let fall intentionally and then you try to glue it and feel helpless that it`s not what it was before. you just don`t let it fall - and if you did and are aware of it, make sure that this never ever happens again by removing the source of the harm. seems radical? yes on that be radically honest with yourself.

the symbolism and undertone in this thread is not only gross it is giving me the chills.

There are some things I should mention:

1. They don’t hurt her every time, just when she “misbehaves” she gets scolded.

2. They are showing her love other times.

3. If the child is taken from them, nobody will take care of her better than her parents – nor government, nor grandparents, nor other relatives.

I want to understand what is going on precisely in terms of psychological issues and how to heal it on time. Is there a framework of behavior to be applied towards the child?

I know her parents did it, but I cannot accuse them directly. I have also done many mistakes in my life (including hurting my sister a lot) and I know being accused does not work, it actually backfires. So when I talk to my sister I try to be objective and not judge. I explained her the situation and that it is not fine, but I am not able to give tips what to do when the child “misbehaves”. She agreed sometimes she loses control and feels guilty and knows it is not normal, but also she still has some false beliefs regarding how to raise a child.

[remember]

28 minutes ago, Buba said:

1. They don’t hurt her every time, just when she “misbehaves” she gets scolded.

a child does not misbehave. the scolding is the misbehavior.

28 minutes ago, Buba said:

2. They are showing her love other times.

that is confusing for the child it does not eradicate the abuse done. you don`t kill someone and then say: sorry i killed you, i didn`t mean to.

28 minutes ago, Buba said:

3. If the child is taken from them, nobody will take care of her better than her parents – nor government, nor grandparents, nor other relatives.

you don`t know that - i met people who had really good foster care. of course that`s a matter of luck or who cares about finding good care. usually it`s better to let people decide about that who have a lot of experience with that.

28 minutes ago, Buba said:

I know her parents did it, but I cannot accuse them directly. I have also done many mistakes in my life (including hurting my sister a lot)

be aware that you might hold back helping your niece because you feel guilty towards your sister, you have to separate both completely or you will feel guilty towards your niece as well.

i agree with you if it is not abnormal you might still be able to help your niece by explaining your sister that she herself urgently needs psychotherapy, because she is misbehaving and maybe her husband, too.

Edited November 26, 2019 by remember

[mandyjw]

Your sister is likely very overwhelmed. Is there anything you can do to help her out? Perhaps offer to take your niece or both kids for her regularly so she can destress? Ask her how she is doing? There's something that happens when you become a mother, and immediately all your family member only care about the children and how they are. 

There's a very strange thing that happens with kids around their primary caregiver, sometimes they act much worse around them and vicious cycles are common. It can take a lot to break the cycle if you don't get time apart to reset and reframe. In the past we had a much more tribal community settings where we weren't isolated as small families as much as we are now. 

[remember]

27 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Your sister is likely very overwhelmed. Is there anything you can do to help her out? Perhaps offer to take your niece or both kids for her regularly so she can destress? Ask her how she is doing? There's something that happens when you become a mother, and immediately all your family member only care about the children and how they are. 

There's a very strange thing that happens with kids around their primary caregiver, sometimes they act much worse around them and vicious cycles are common. It can take a lot to break the cycle if you don't get time apart to reset and reframe. In the past we had a much more tribal community settings where we weren't isolated as small families as much as we are now. 

don`t get yourself confused because you are stressed out with your kids sometimes! there is a range of people scolding their children and a range of tone scolding a child and a range of words that still count as halfways acceptable due to being stressed. why do you try to downsize the problem while it`s maybe important for the child, to stay alarmed.

did you read that?

7 hours ago, Buba said:

So my niece fakes laughing, crying, playing - everything. She meets me with a fake look as if she is an actress. I try to talk to her. She does not like talking normally, only games. We talked twice and in each time she said she is a bad girl, a shit, and idiot.

a four year old!

someone needs to put words into a child so it even learns how to speak. i only know of one case of suicide of a six year old - a child would usually not even think of something like that. either it`s the mother who told her or it`s someone else or it is someone who told that to her mother as she only learned after three that something like her even exists.

the i only exists after the age of three. how could she understand anything else if she is responsible for everything.

Edited November 26, 2019 by remember

[mandyjw]

17 minutes ago, remember said:

don`t get yourself confused because you are stressed out with your kids sometimes! there is a range of people scolding their children and a range of tone scolding a child and a range of words that still count as halfways acceptable due to being stressed. why do you try to downsize the problem while it`s maybe important for the child, to stay alarmed.

did you read that?

a four year old!

Yes, psychotherapy is definitely called for, however we aren't speaking to mother of the child, we are speaking to the OP who is the child's uncle and from that position he only has so much power of influence. His relationship with his sister and offering help without alienating her is the best way that he can possibly make a positive change in the situation. Often people unconsciously throw away concern for parents out of their protective instincts for the child. In reality this hurts children much worse than examining a family or a situation as a whole and having compassion for everyone involved. 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by mandyjw

[hamedsf]

parents transmit bad behaviors subconsciously to their children so subtly that It would shock us to death investigating the psychology of that! 

so consider a bad or abusive case of a mom who transmits her behaviors delicately to her daughter and the daughter as a future mom to her daughter and this chain of negative effect will run its course till a mom becomes aware of the malicious pattern and takes action on altering that behavior for the good! so don't underestimate the effect of her mom on her. 

on the other hand, maybe she has hyperactivity and she wants to release that extra energy by acting out and behaving mischievously! so in that case, don't underrate visiting a psychiatrist. 

[Buba]

She says "I am shit, I am a bad girl, I am idiot" and smiles, sometimes laughs. I once said "why do you say I am shit", she said "because shit is joyful". 

[studentofthegame]

Do what you can, but this sounds as if professional intervention is needed. 

[remember]

5 hours ago, Buba said:

She says "I am shit, I am a bad girl, I am idiot" and smiles, sometimes laughs. I once said "why do you say I am shit", she said "because shit is joyful". 

it`s very difficult to understand what is going on. there are actually children who can be a true challenge for parents and it`s sometimes difficult to make the difference. but you also said it seams to be fake behaviour. children don`t have such a distance to their poo, sometimes they even play with their poo and that`s not the nicest part - in some sense the poo answer seems to be the only healthy about her answers.

whatever the reason of scolding her, all scolding can be exchanged with talking. in her age she can already understand some basic concepts. she can already understand, that shit can`t be something really bad even though part of her might not - a child sometimes need to understand why it`s not ok to do certain things if it´s logical the child will understand, children can learn, they are actually verry great learners by nature, much better than a grown up is, even if they sometimes make faults. a child is not a grown up who has enough theortical foundation to think for themselfs in a more abstract way. they don`t do anything out of evilness, they only don`t know it better. don`t underestimate a childs intelligence.

an older child sometimes needs stricter boundaries and see consequences to their action, as they then really start to be responsible for what they are doing - but that means they need to be able to adequately process what responsibility and responsiveness to their surrounding is. and that usually also takes place in a certain age. you can have a look into developmental psychiology to know what a child is able to process in a certain age and what is important for a child to learn to not mess them up or let them become messed up.

what language and behaviour do you want to put into your child? love or hate? ask your sister to do the rice experiment, or set it up for her!

Edited November 26, 2019 by remember

[remember]

1 hour ago, Keyhole said:

Judging from your insane accusation of me, it seems like this is a common theme for you.

so what about your insane accusation of buba? i did not accuse you by the way i just said that there are some really really interesting similarities. so sad he removed the penis doll. what about the mifi bunny? sometimes of course things seem different than they really are and sometimes things are exactly how they seem.

not knowing is a really really difficult thing especially if you know some things. sometimes it might be better to stay curious what`s really going on.

Edited November 26, 2019 by remember

[Nahm]

@Buba It’s not a parenting issue. Indirectly, yes. Your sister could educate and practice with regards to the catalyst, her anger. And technically, the anger isn’t addressed, because it’s already unconscious behavior. At that point, there’s literally nobody home to do anything different. The root, & prevention is addressed. I’ll talk with her anytime if she wants to try something different. I grew up in a chronically angry household. I currently have three kids, and live in a very happy household. 

[Buba]

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Buba It’s not a parenting issue. Indirectly, yes. Your sister could educate and practice with regards to the catalyst, her anger. And technically, the anger isn’t addressed, because it’s already unconscious behavior. At that point, there’s literally nobody home to do anything different. The root, & prevention is addressed. I’ll talk with her anytime if she wants to try something different. I grew up in a chronically angry household. I currently have three kids, and live in a very happy household. 

She admits it is beyond her control and accuses our mother for ruining her psychology in childhood. Sometimes we have a nice talk on the child’s issue, sometimes she gets defensive. I myself struggle with anger and sometimes feel an immense hatred towards my sister for her attitude to her daughter. I try to control my anger and talk to my sister nicely. I can yell, insult her or beat her or kill her. Will it change my niece’s state for better? No. Nobody will take care of my niece better than her parents. I guess the only possible solution is to persuade her to change her attitude, to drop her false beliefs regarding how to raise a child. May be a psychotherapist can persuade her. But what is the chance to meet a good psychotherapist. “Almost all people yell and insult their children, is not it normal” she would think. I don’t have any tips how to raise a child, I just play with my niece and don’t know what to do when she behaves recklessly. I just show great patience. But other people don’t (my sister, our parents, her husband, her husband’s parents).

She would not like to talk to a random person, unfortunately. I would like to know if there are any good books addressing these issues, like anger, raising a child without hurting her and etc?

 I do not recommend meditation to her or anyone, because I do not think everybody can handle Dark Night of the Soul or other dark sides of meditation.

Also I feel like I failed as an uncle. I feel like I can do more, but I don’t do because I am afraid and lazy. I feel like a piece of shit. I think about this issue every time. I feel stuck. I cannot solve it with force (to force my sister to act nicely or to take my niece from her).