What are the geopolitical reasons for faster spiral dynamics evolution?

[andyjohnsonman]

In Leos content vs structure video he critiques Sam Harris saying sam harris and the terrorists believing that they will go to paradise from doing these acts based on the Quran is content. The structure of why they do this is that at this level of development, religious fundamentalists believe things without questioning them and take them on at dogmas. The reasons why development has been slower than the west are geopolitical. The weather, climate, environment, geography the mountain ranges, farming, agriculture etc.

 

I would like to know where i can find out more about this point or for someone to go into more detail about it for example what was it about the weather that caused this and why. 

[Leo Gura]

You'd have to study a lot of history and culture of the Middle East.

The classic book: Gun, Germs, and Steel makes some interesting points about how geographical conditions shape development of nations and cultures.

It's not exactly rocket science to suggest that geography plays an important role in how nations develop and survive.

Arabian culture was highly tribal because survival in harsh desert climates is no easy business. That strong tribalism is evident even today.

You can think of nations almost like species. Different bird species develop and survive in different ways depending on the geography they must survive in -- as Darwin discovered and catalogued. Well, same thing with nations. Some nations develop quickly because their environment demands it. Other nations develop slowly because their environment allows for it. Some species like crocodiles have not changed much in the last 50 million years while others like birds and primates had to evolve rapidly to adapt to new emerging environments. To reduce all this complexity to problematic passages within the Quran is rather silly. The Quran itself is a byproduct of this evolutionary process of survival.

Islam is a religion uniquely suited to survival within the conditions where it arose. Unfortunately as the world becomes more globalized Islam has difficulty adapting to more modern times. But this problem is not unique to Islam. All religions face this problem to some extent. Fundamentalism is a reactionary movement against modernization and secularism. Fundamentalist movements exist within Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. Fundamentalism is an ego backlash against modernity and post-modernity.

[jd1279]

Actually, the middle east and central Asia was more advanced than the west 1,000 years ago. Cities like Baghdad, Cairo, Samarkand etc had great philosophers, scientists, astronomers and scholars, in sharp contrast to Europe's 'dark ages'. Ever heard of Avicenna, al-Biruni or Ibn Khaldun? They also had religious tolerance (mostly). After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in ww1 colonial powers UK and France started carving up the region based on resources like oil, known as the Sykes-Picot agreement. UK, Russia and later US also meddled in affairs of Iran for oil. All this led to a region of underdevelopment and resentment that characterises it today. As Chomsky pointed out in a great video, a region full of nation states leads to constant conflict over land, religion and ethnicity. This is why Europe was at war for so long as states battled out for supremacy in wars that never resolved and then lead to more wars. The colonial powers then transported this system to their colonised territories in the middle East, and Asia and Africa, as well as taking their resources. Explaining why these places are underdeveloped and combustable to conflict today. Europe was actually geopoliticaly disadvantaged as it had few resources, it only began to rise 500 years ago because of resources pulled from its overseas colonies. You guys really need to brush up on your world history. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by jd1279

[Leo Gura]

@jd1279 None of what you said contradicts what I said. All of that is dependent on different starting conditions. What the conditions and who is advantaged or disadvantaged is irrelevant, since reality unfolds in chaotic and backward ways, with one part sloping up, another sloping down, and then many oscillations and reversals.

The development of nations is not linear, it is chaotic.

Europe had a tremendous amount of competition which lead to lots of development.

The actual details of the history are not important. What's important is the general principle that in a chaotic system small differences in starting conditions lead to very different evolutionary paths.

And the ultimate point is that it is foolish to blame anyone for these developmental paths. The paths are precisely whatever they are and no one is to blame (as Sam Harris likes to do). It is like blaming a 3rd grader for not yet being a 5th grader. Well, some people take longer to reach 5th grade. Rather than blaming them, help them along.

[Derek White]

The book “The Medium is the Massage” by Marshal McLuhan talks about how the structure of a medium is way more important than the content of the medium. Although not exactly what you asked for, but it shows how for eg. just by reading a book, any book, your world view changes. It is must read if you want to delve deep into content vs structure. A medium is anything man made like glasses, a room, a house, etc.

[andyjohnsonman]

But if its mainly geographical reasons what about the fact that many Americans are also at stage blue? Surely if the environment is similar throughout America the whole of the country would be at the same stage according to this way of thinking. 

 

Another point i'm stuck on is using rationality (spiral dynamics and evolution) to criticise Sam Harris for his rationality.

[Spiral]

Absolutely, if you live in a safe environment and can focus on the small things, those things get better. Sweden and Switzerland are great examples.

• Both are high on the spiral.
• Neither has been at war for the last 200 years. 
• Both are is naturally multicultural and have been so for a very long time.(Sweden has Sami and Finnish peoples)(Swiss have french, german Italians).
• Both are safe from natural disasters.   
• Both have great trade opportunities due to their location.

[Tanz]

The western society.  The I is more valued than the WHOLE or the WE.  Based on spiral dynamics the I is essential for stage orange.  

Its much easier to create systems that focus the I first when creating something and takes far more evolution to create something from for the WHOLE.  

Also if you are too focused on truth, it's easy to skip many steps to obtain that.  Something that a country like India is guilty of.  A union between east/west, material/immaterial is essential for one's spiritual growth.  

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

But if its mainly geographical reasons what about the fact that many Americans are also at stage blue? Surely if the environment is similar throughout America the whole of the country would be at the same stage according to this way of thinking. 

It's far more complex than that.

America has pockets of Blue. Lots of it in the South, which is of course a geographical factor. Rural America is much less developed than urban America.

Amd rural parts of the Middle East are far lower than Blue. They are mostly Purple and Red.

9 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

Another point i'm stuck on is using rationality (spiral dynamics and evolution) to criticise Sam Harris for his rationality.

No problem here at all.

The rational is being criticized from post-rational. Post-rational still uses reason but recognizes its limits, whereas the rational does not recognize the limits of reason. Which is Sam Harris' biggest problem.

[bejapuskas]

Anthropology of the Middle East is very interesting, when you realize that they have all these natural catastrophies there and poor conditions... When you live in that kind of place where you cannot even get yourself a glass of water that isn't full of some weird insect larvae, saying everything is God's Will and we should just deal with it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all, I actually think it holds them together, without Islam, they would struggle even harder.

[Raptorsin7]

@Leo Gura What does it mean to argue from a post-rational perspective?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Leo Gura What does it mean to argue from a post-rational perspective?

The cheif function of reason is to realize its own limitations and go beyond itself to vision-logic and then even further to pure consciousness.

Reason eats its own tail if you question it deeply enough.

At post-rational even the notion of argument falls apart. There is nothing to argue and no one to argue with but yourself.

[Raptorsin7]

I see. That seems like a problematic strategy to try and deal with problems in the 21st century. If someone makes a great argument you just revert to saying that your reason is limited, and my post-rationality understanding of the world proves your analysis is incomplete. And then when they and try and argue it you say either meditate for 10 years or do some DMT. Don't you see the issue with that?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Don't you see the issue with that?

It is what it is. Arguing with people is largely a waste of time. If you care about truth you will sit down and do the work.

Question what reason is. Study what post-rationality is. Don't take my word for it. I just don't have 10 years to explain to you all the limits of reason. It is your job to figure that out. I just give quick pointers. Under each pointer might lie 5 or 10 years of study and contemplation. So of course without doing that the pointer will mean very little to you.

Don't confuse this work with any kind of proof. We're not in the business of proof or argumentation, we're in the business of self-reflection and exploration of how our minds work.

The only way you can learn how your mind works is by studying how your mind works. Not by listening to arguments.

Everything worth knowing can be found directly in your experience, so there is no need to argue about it. Observation work is necessary.

[Raptorsin7]

@Leo Gura Ok i understand.