Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[Focus Shift]

What are your thoughts on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from a spiral dynamics perspective? 

[Anton Rogachevski]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abby_Martin

This woman is a conspiracy theorist.

"Martin was, before starting her career in journalism, an active member of the 9/11 Truth movement, views that she later disavowed." Wikipedia

[Hatfort]

This woman interviewed random people of all ages and profiles in Jerusalem and the number of Jews advocating for ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians is frightening, it's on YouTube, much less than the other side, by the way. She is forbidden to go to Israel again, like any other journalist who is critical to Israel's government approach to the conflict, freedom of speech my balls.

She doesn't even advocate for the two state solution, that's kind of impossible at this point of massive colonization, she just asks for equal rights and treatment for all the citizens in the country. What they are doing to Palestinians is plain terrorism.

Her documentary Gaza fights for freedom is a must.

[Focus Shift]

@Anton Rogachevski So if someone has a controversial opinion on something, and then later change their mind, that's their position forever? This is also a distraction from the argument she's making about the occupation of Palestine. 

[Focus Shift]

@Hatfort I totally agree. It's a topic that I hope to spread awareness of. Would be awesome to collaborate with Abby Martin some day

[Forestluv]

What is described of the West Bank in that video is stage Red / Blue. 

@Focus Shift Spreading awareness on this is awesome. It looks like many Americans are waking up. When the topic of Palestine comes up, I'm seeing more and more Americans respond "Yea, I heard about Palestinian treatment - that's not right". I think Bernie, AOC, Thalib and Omar have done a lot to raise awareness over the last year. 

 

 

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Focus Shift

 

Im sorry but I can't call it "awareness", because it's not objective, it's highly left-naive-pacifist-hippy biased. They are looking for the bad guy, and it's easy to automatically assume the stronger side is wrong. You can't listen to me either because I am also automatically biased being an Israeli, of course I work on that and try to be as objective as possible. Actually I'm all for the Two Countries solution, maybe even to allow Palestinians who want to become citizens of Israel with full rights a chance. 

• This is a deep systemic fault, and it has multiple factors, which makes the quest for peace even harder.
• How about the world's ancient anti-semitism? We have nowhere to go, this tiny piece of land is our only home.
• How about the fact that we live peacefully with israeli arabs and we are at peace with many arab countries?
• It's them who want us gone no matter what, we are the ones who seek practical humane solutions.
• There are multiple peace programs that work with palestinian kids and israeli kids to be more united.
• At least half of our parliament is Left-Wing Progressive Stage Green, which actually these days isn't allowing for a Right-Wing government to assemble.
• Did you know that they educate their children for vengeance and violence?

But don't listen to me, listen to the Jordanian's representative speech:

 

The main problems that aren't allowing solutions are:

 

• We have a right wing religious-nationalist government. 
• We were attacked many times by neighbour arab countries, we sustain attacks almost daily from Hamas and Hezbollah, which are stage Purple-Red Terrorist groups that exist just to kill us.
• Gaza is occupied by Hamas, and has no stable government to establish a country, which actually happened because we took our forces out of gaza many years ago.

 

Plus if she really cared about her message she wouldn't charge for the film. I would totally watch it if it were free.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Anton Rogachevski

[TheSomeBody]

as someone who lives in israel and have friends that actually do all those millitary stuff, most of what she says it completly bullshit...

israel is not doing everything right and you can point out israels faults but this is really propagantic bullshit

[Hatfort]

Well, we can see some soldiers saying some things and others saying others.

We have one side with military, economic, political, judicial and media system working for them and the other has stones and are being harassed in every possible way. The two sides have harmed the other, but one much more, sorry but this is not an equal situation.

Look, this one against the other has to stop. Palestinians and jews have to live together in the same land, you can't see each other as enemies and this means you cannot harm each other, with violence or further colonization. Saying that the other side is not cooperating, so I do whatever I want against the other is the worst thing any of the sides can say. Because in that stupid cycle both get the excuse to keep harming the other.

Israel: I harm palestinias because they harm me.

Palestina: I harm jews because they harm me.

Israel: ...

Palestina: ...

The never ending stupid story.

Looks to me that Israel is very comfortable in this situation where has the most power, all the power really, so colonization continues expanding to this day very conveniently for them. Palestina as a land and palestinians need to be officially recognized somehow too, as Israel is. Every people in the country need to have equal rights, no matter who they are, an apartheid situation where some live fine and others are treated worse than dogs by the state can't be.

I'll also link the video I mentioned before with Abby Martin asking people in Jerusalem about the conflict and continues with another man from Israel, which is very interesting to hear too. Abby Martin is an independent leftist journalist from the US, she is probably banned from all media in her country and I totally understand she charges for the documentary for a while. Would be good if she released it for free in time though.

Now I'll speak for both sides, just put yourselves in the place of the other, then return to your side, then go to the other side again and then go back. Listen to each other and make it work, live together, don't harm each other. Actually make cool things together with the good people you can find on the other side, sure there are some and if you can't see that, well, you are wrong, there are. We are all human beings in the end, differences are quite supperficial actually and it's not a bad thing there are differences, it's a good thing. I leave here.

[Forestluv]

@Anton Rogachevski By “awareness”, I mean awareness relative to Americans that are ignorant. For decades in the US, any criticism of isreal by politicians or media was seen as anti-semetic and un-Anerican and they would face a strong backlash. So a lot of Americans are unaware there is right and wrong on each side. For example, my parents think Palestine is a terrorist group like ISIS that kills innocent people. 

[Nivsch]

On 23.11.2019 at 10:50 PM, Hatfort said:

Well, we can see some soldiers saying some things and others saying others.

 

 

Right to resist?

Yes. they have right to resist their barbaric leadership.

[Nivsch]

On 23.11.2019 at 2:59 PM, TheSomeBody said:

as someone who lives in israel and have friends that actually do all those millitary stuff, most of what she says it completly bullshit...

israel is not doing everything right and you can point out israels faults but this is really propagantic bullshit

???

Edited November 25, 2019 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

On 23.11.2019 at 1:49 PM, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Focus Shift

 

Im sorry but I can't call it "awareness", because it's not objective, it's highly left-naive-pacifist-hippy biased. They are looking for the bad guy, and it's easy to automatically assume the stronger side is wrong. You can't listen to me either because I am also automatically biased being an Israeli, of course I work on that and try to be as objective as possible. Actually I'm all for the Two Countries solution, maybe even to allow Palestinians who want to become citizens of Israel with full rights a chance. 

• This is a deep systemic fault, and it has multiple factors, which makes the quest for peace even harder.
• How about the world's ancient anti-semitism? We have nowhere to go, this tiny piece of land is our only home.
• How about the fact that we live peacefully with israeli arabs and we are at peace with many arab countries?
• It's them who want us gone no matter what, we are the ones who seek practical humane solutions.
• There are multiple peace programs that work with palestinian kids and israeli kids to be more united.
• At least half of our parliament is Left-Wing Progressive Stage Green, which actually these days isn't allowing for a Right-Wing government to assemble.
• Did you know that they educate their children for vengeance and violence?

But don't listen to me, listen to the Jordanian's representative speech:

 

The main problems that aren't allowing solutions are:

 

• We have a right wing religious-nationalist government. 
• We were attacked many times by neighbour arab countries, we sustain attacks almost daily from Hamas and Hezbollah, which are stage Purple-Red Terrorist groups that exist just to kill us.
• Gaza is occupied by Hamas, and has no stable government to establish a country, which actually happened because we took our forces out of gaza many years ago.

 

Plus if she really cared about her message she wouldn't charge for the film. I would totally watch it if it were free.

Exactly Anton ?

listen guys to this video.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Nivsch

[Focus Shift]

Sure, other entities are not innocent in their treatment of Palestinians. However, that doesn't justify the mistreatment from Israeli forces. 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/02/1033742?fbclid=IwAR06NkYM9TYUN3DbCJNL0RDKnmWltpUf1EsynyBdI8bqIUST3mwcWRgnRbw

Edited November 26, 2019 by Focus Shift

[Anton Rogachevski]

https://www.integratedsociopsychology.net/2018/overcoming-intractable-elements-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-through-spiral-dynamics/

[Lento]

On 23/11/2019 at 1:49 PM, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Focus Shift

Actually I'm all for the Two Countries solution, maybe even to allow Palestinians who want to become citizens of Israel with full rights a chance.

Positions reversed, would you consider doing it (becoming a citizen of Palestine)?

[Anton Rogachevski]

37 minutes ago, Lento said:

Positions reversed, would you consider doing it (becoming a citizen of Palestine)?

That's the point, there are many Arabs here, but no jews there, if one happens to step foot in there just accidentally he will be tortured, killed, or kidnaped.

My position is highly progressive, and it is to make the country non nationalist, global and open, maybe Israel-Palestine?

What's not allowing that is the fact that Jewish people aren't feeling safe because of the massive anti semitism, and they need a place of their own to practice the jewish faith and customs. (Places need to be kosher)

[Lento]

@Anton Rogachevski

Are you saying that the Palestinian people would do the kidnapping, torturing, or killing? Or is it just their "government" i.e. Hamas? Because I believe if there are progressive people like you on the Israeli side, then surely there must be people with similar mindsets on the Palestinian side.

I mean it seems like you don't fully agree with your government anyway. For instance, I'd guess you are against the Israeli West Bank barrier?

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Lento

To respond - Yes the majority of people would help the Hamas, they were after all democratically voted into government.

My disagreement with the status quo goes as far as leaving Israel if I had the chance. (There's bad karma here.) I'm a wage slave, with a family in a similar position, from which we don't actually have a choice but to stay here. (We actually immigrated here in 1990, escaping the fall of Soviet Union).

It's basic Survival - Immigration is highly counter survival, in fact it's considered one of the biggest traumas a person can have.

In each group the majority of people are low consciousness and just a tiny bit are high consciousness, so I don't judge a group by it's majority.

I'm against any barrier whatsoever, but we gotta be realistic, it will take society a thousand more years to reach the level of development required to remove all borders and walls.

If we could hypothetically take all the radicals from each side and separate them from normal peaceful people, it would be ideal. But the world doesn't work that way.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Anton Rogachevski

[remember]

i‘m stepping into a denn of snakes here because i am german and in germany it’s difficult to even talk about the topic without being pointed at with all arguments why germans shouldn’t take any position towards the situation. well no not really it starts the moment germans bring pro palestinian arguments. and i must say i‘m not in any way taking sides with one of both sides if i am allowed to talk about it, i want to be allowed to talk about it from both perspectives. and yes i‘m still self biased i‘m self biased because for a long time as a child i felt guilty, i‘m self biased because jewish culture feels culturally more close than muslim culture even though more muslims live in germany than jews, and still i don’t know much of both. in sense of spiritual heritage i feel very close to a lot of jews who lived in this country before some people tried to mess up the world to whom i feel no connection - i also feel connected to a lot of atheist jews as i grew up atheistic... so there is a very deep conflict regarding semitic heritage and let’s face some aspects, like what cultures are semites? are we talking about a religion or a country are we talking about a skin colour or genetic heritage, what are we really talking about. all of these are points where i don’t see a lot of healthy discussion from so many israeli citizens and also i don’t see a healthy discussion taking place between germans and israelis, although i think exactly there it could or maybe even should happen, because it touches really deep wounds - i also sometimes think it has something sad to it, because there is much denial and a lot of insecurity still to talk about the topic of what it really means to be a victim, and how difficult it is to also accept to also be an aggressor and having to justify that. i‘m not saying palestinians are not also at fault for how they do warfare. i‘m just saying beware of selfjustification, it’s a trap.