My Brief Report on Stable Meditative Joy

[ardacigin]

Hello everyone! 

I've experienced something really interesting yesterday. This enabled me to contrast my current practice with how my 3 years of spiritual practice was. And I got some important insights into meditative joy and its importance on the spiritual path.

I don't know if it has to do with my crazy sleeping schedules but I've felt strong sensations of sleepiness all through out the day and I've felt that something in my brain is literally blocking the arising of meditative joy. But initially, I didn't relate this to sleepiness because I wasn't that dull to want to go to sleep. But I wasn't so energized to combat the dullness as well. It was in an awkward manageable phaseand my whole meditative joy practices were temporarily shut down.

That is why I've said that regardless of how profound these are, they are enduring at best, not permanent because they didn't arise due to sufficient insight embodiment. They are dependent on causes and conditions. But that is fine because I've access to happiness and joy on demand effortlessly again. 

Report:

So I've experienced 33 days of stable happiness, easily accessed even after losing it. I've described what this is in the previous posts. Stage 8 mastery of meditative joy in TMI.

34rth day (yesterday) - Experienced unusual fuzziness, dullness, sleepiness and tiredness of mind and body. I don't understand why this happened. Maybe my mind and body simply wanted some break from stable happiness

 Access to all joy is blocked. But there is still very subtle levels of equanimity. Just to clarify, I was in a state of neutral and persistent dullness related to lack of rest. I haven't spiraled down to negative emotions like sadness, frustration etc. As I've said, these sort of emotions rarely enters my consciousness at this point.

Also I can do the usual TMI breath practice just fine. I just completely lack the joy and happiness component and this helped me remember that this is how I've been meditating for the last 3 years of my life before the arising of meditative joy. This enabled me to realize how important meditative joy is.

Today: Since I've rested properly yesterday, I've woken up with joy and happiness effortlessly. The blockage I've felt due to fuzziness is gone. Just to make sure, I've refrained from all substances that can alert or dull the mind like caffeine, tea, bread, food in the morning. Basically I'm doing intermittent fasting and things are as smooth and stable as before.

This helped me realize that meditative joy and stable happiness is currently the greatest accelerator on the spiritual path that I've experienced.

Leo says 'Consciousness is love. Love is consciousness'. I've also heard Culadasa say the exact same thing. 

Well, guess what? I've realized that your ability and overall chance of accessing the love component of consciousness is directly related to your emotional well-being. This actually applies to all meditation and insights in my experience.

A joyful mind and equanimous mind is the ideal mind for all meditative endeavors including psychedelics. Your chances of having a bad trip are also extremely low if you've mastered this meditative joy.

What are the chances of a meditator who've flatlined emotionally (neutral - negative states) to be conscious of love? What are the chances of consistent meditation? I'm not even mentioning how this stable happiness transformed my personal relationships, career, hobbies, entertainment and all aspects of life in a radical way.

I'm starting to see how meditative joy is not a simple phenomenon.

After spending a day without it, I can conclusively say that meditative joy arose in the proper context with stable attention, mindfulness and equanimity results in radical reductions in craving and desire, and increase in contentment and ability to do open spacious awareness practices. (or all meditation practices as a whole.)

So get to meditative joy as soon as possible! Work towards it. Do whatever you need to. If you need to, do jhana practice, go do it. Start TMI practices. Read Leigh Brasington's book on Right concentration. Even if your access concentration is not solid, still try the basic technique:

- Find a pleasurable sensations in the mind-body, focus on it and stay with it until it increases in intensity. If you lose the subtle pleasurable sensations and flatline, focus on the breath for awhile and come back to the pleasure when it arises. Repeat.

(In TMI practice, you can do the same thing stabilizing on the breath first, and look for the pleasure with awareness but that is actually much more challenging before joy develops sufficiently. So directly focus on the body to find some pleasurable sensations and stay with it without craving. For this, you can drop the breath awareness completely or maintain it in the background until meditative joy is stable and strong. Then add the breath component.)

More importantly, SMILE!!!!! 

I wish I've smiled more in meditation these last 3 years. I'd have facilitated meditative joy development properly.  I never liked smiling in meditation but it eases the edge of concentration practices and enables some space and mellowness. So force yourself if you have to. Smile slightly without creating tension in the body.

 Life flows much better when you have meditative joy because it comes usually with some equanimity and contentment which means a directly perceptible reduction in all cravings. Having this as a baseline for all spiritual practices will transform your life.

The benefits of internally developed stable happiness are well beyond any 'gimmick' I've tried in meditation. More people must structure their daily session welcoming and facilitating joy and happiness. You'd be glad you did in the future  

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by ardacigin

[Consilience]

Beautiful post. Thank you ??

[Forestluv]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I think which states of mind are most conducive to spiritual insights and realizations is a really interesting area. Ime, a busy distressed mind is not optimal for insights/realizations to appear. I find anything that can relax the mind and body is helpful. Meditation, yoga, time in nature etc. It allows space of insights/realizations to appear. For me, the "space" is more important than "joy". Joy can be an expression of what arises in the space, yet for me joy isn't the key - it is the empty space. Yet, a happy mind-body is generally a better mindset for insight/awakening than an unhappy mindset. Yet I wouldn't say it's the joy itself, I would say it's more about attachment/identification, desire and distraction. When my mind body is unhappy, there is usually thought stories occurring in my mind and desire to change Now. For example, if the mind is worrying about making money there can be insecurities and desire to change one's state. We don't like being Now and want a better now in which we feel good. In a joyful mind-body there much less desire to change Now. This makes it easier to be Now, since we are not seeking a better state. We are happy with Now. Yet this is still within a pleasure/pain dynamic. As soon as the thought/desire to make the happy state stable and permanent - desire arises and a pleasure vs. pain duality appears. We may seek the joyful state and become motivated to stablize the joyful state. We may start chasing joyful states. Relative joy distracts from unconditional joy.

For example, last year I was in an isolated area of Belize that was paradise. After a week, my mind and body was relaxed and joyful to levels I didn't even know exist. One day I was floating in the ocean and everything was perfect, I was in joyful bliss. No worries, no distractions, no personal stories, no me. Various insights and realizations appeared. There was no time. . . Then, there was a thought about how joyful this was. As soon as joy appeared, non-joy appeared. If I am joyful, then I am not unjoyful. This appearance completely change the energetics. There were know thought like "What if I become unjoyful again? I don't want that. I want this joy to be stable. What if I return home to work and become unjoyful? How can I make this joy stable?". Then appearances of desire and thought stories. There is a mixture of joy and unjoy. For relative joy to exist, it must contrast itself to nonjoy? How can we tell if we are joyful? We must contrast this to nonjoyful. . . This can be beneficial at the personal/human level, yet relative happiness is a distraction and resistance to unconditional / absolute happiness. Unconditional/Absolute happiness is not dependent on conditions. It is impossible to be unhappy because there is Happiness in all conditions. There is unconditional happiness during meditation, while cooking, while running away from a pit bull, while having sex, while worrying about work, while being angry etc. . . . Ime, relative happiness can be important at the personal/human level - relative joy/happiness is healthy to the mind and body. Yet I need to be careful, because relative happiness can be alluring, mesmerizing and captivating. It can distract from unconditional/absolute happiness. 

[ardacigin]

@Serotoninluv Nice insights. Just make sure not to lump in 'meditative joy' I'm talking about with any sort of happiness or joy that might arise in daily life. This is a strict meditation related development. What you described still applies though. You can easily get addicted to this internally created joy and happiness.

Meditative joy also arises with high levels of equanimity, tranquility and contentment. So basically you are getting closer to the extinction of all craving. But this highly refined state hasn't yet facilitated permanent realization so is dependent upon causes and conditions.

The 'space' aspect you are talking about is included in what I'm talking about.

Open spacious awareness, joy, happiness, tranquility, energy, stable attention, metacognitive awareness, introspective awareness - all of these constitute powerful mindfulness at adept levels of practice.

So without joy and happiness, the emotional state has 2 other possible states to be in: neutrality and negativity. 

Neutrality, unless it arises due to dullness and sleepiness, can be used skilfully in mindfulness. But this requires 4rth jhana levels of equanimity. (a lot of equanimity) with stable attention and powerful mindfulness. The catch 22 here is that if you had these aspects of the practice, joy and happiness would slowly develop effortlessly. So neutrality is a temporarily phase you are going through in the development of samatha.

If your overall emotional tone is described as negative emotions, that points to obvious aversion and craving. This will only create problems in insight investigation.

So meditative joy is a profound development because it is the only line of development (besides equanimity) that enables the ideal environments for awakening. 

Can you spend the rest of your life stuck in neutral-negative mental states and hope for the best with insight practices like self enquiry? Sure. Many dry insight meditators do this.

But what powerful mindfulness, stable attention with joy, equanimity and happiness not only brings you closer to awakening (due to radical reductions in craving) but also increases life satisfaction. It eliminates resistance to practice. It super-charges motivation. It turns you into someone pleasant to be around.

See, the more I've glimpsed the adept stages of samatha, the more I realize 'dry insight' approach where you don't develop these skills until stream entry is an unskilful and short term approach.

Lets say you become a stream enterer using primarily self enquiry in 5-10 years which is a reasonable amount of time for committed meditators. That is only first path. The initial stages of awakening.

Self enquiry won't take you deeper into the hidden recesses of the no-self. It won't eliminate all the subtle remaining aspects of craving. It won't arise insight into love aspect of consciousness. Its ability to produce insight is limited to no-self. And even that won't be fully grasped with just one insight question like: Who am I?

There are MANY more aspects you must develop spiritually speaking.  All these aspects Leo talks about can not be understood simply by using self enquiry for 10 years. With adept levels of mindfulness mastery however, you can do many insight practices (including self enquiry) and go deeper into many aspects Leo talks about. It is overall MUCH more useful skill than being a better self enquiry meditator.

So this meditative joy, however conditioned, is very important. Everything is conditioned before awakening. The question is: What state of mind actually gets me closer to awakening? 

Unsurprisingly, the state of mind that IS closest to awakening. That has the minimum levels of craving and maximum levels of equanimity. That cultivates maximum levels of love, joy and happiness and minimum levels of aversion and negativity. That state of mind has the highest chance of experiencing insight that leads to permanent realizations.

You can get there with deep samatha practice. Because you systematically develop mindfulness in all aspects. But that requires more work and discipline than sitting on a cushion and asking the question 'Who am ı?' in a state of craving and mind wandering.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by ardacigin

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, ardacigin said:

But what powerful mindfulness, stable attention with joy, equanimity and happiness not only brings you closer to awakening (due to radical reductions in craving) but also increases life satisfaction. It eliminates resistance to practice. It super-charges motivation. It turns you into someone pleasant to be around.

It looks like you are reaching deep levels and developing mastery in this technique. It clearly has a lot of value - both spiritually and practically. I think it's super cool you are sharing your insights with the forum. Very few people have reached these "realms", partially because not everyone is willing or able to do the intense amount of practice required. Would you say that you have some predisposition abilities (genetics, childhood conditioning, ability to concentrate, mind structure) that may have allowed you to progress as efficiently as you have? Or do you think everyone has roughly the same ability/potential and it's just a matter of doing the work and having a good teacher?

2 hours ago, ardacigin said:

So without joy and happiness, the emotional state has 2 other possible states to be in: neutrality and negativity. 

You are creating a construct of joy/happiness, neutrality and negativity. I'm totally into that. I find as much value in construction as deconstruction. Here, there are three categories: joy/happiness, neutrality and negativity. I like how you used this framework to describe aspects of attention, craving and awakening. It's a really nice framework. 

I'm referring to something different, yet I don't mean to suggest this idea is better, deeper or truer than what you offered above. And I don't want to distract from its value, so I'll be brief. We can use the categories of joy/happiness, neutrality and negativity as framework to construct - which you have done very nicely above. We can also deconstruct - which would take us to a different dimension. This dimension isn't better, worse or more awakened. It's just another form of ISness. . . The categories of joy/happiness, neutrality and negativity can be deconstructed down to one category : absolute Happiness. Here, there are no conditions or categories. So, the category of neutrality is absolute Happiness. The category of negativity is absolute Happiness. All conditions and mind states are absolute Happiness. This is just one of many "awakenings". As you have described, this absolute Happiness does not have much utility for spiritual awakenings, concentration, well-being, fulfillment in life etc. . . So it is equally valuable to construct. From absolute Happiness, we can create three relative categories: happiness, neutrality and negativity. With this framework, we can further create things that will bring spiritual awakening, meta awareness, well-being, attention, mindfulness and skills. It's beautiful. And I think what you are describing is beautiful. . . And quite advanced. 

[ardacigin]

@Serotoninluv  As much as I'd like to say I have some sort of genetical advantage, I can't say that with honesty. I've started the path with a lot of frustration. I didn't like meditating. I wasn't spiritually inclined (even though I was interested in psychology and self-development).

Most importantly, I had a lot of emotional issues. I wasn't clinically depressed or anything but I certainly was not a 'happy' person. My mood tended to be down and sad most of the time. I had a lot of craving for video games and other pursuits in fixated ways. I had a lot of mind wandering. And I realize only now that I've been reinforcing these moods constantly without knowing.

So my genetics was habituated for non-spirituality, negative emotions and ADD before I've started the path. Only recently,  these deep habits are unraveling and I'm starting to see how much re-programming is occurring in the unconscious mind. 

This also enables me to see how much skill development is required vs genetical advantage. The key point for me was finding a systematic practice like TMI. Not everyone will like this style, but it did the trick for me. It enabled me to realize my weak spots and practice with diligence. 

So the question is 'How can I figure out or study a system of practice that I'll fall in love with?' That is what happened to me with TMI. The first time I've read, I said 'Nice! I think I've found my main practice'.

After that initial love and interest, I've started the path with serious diligence and practice. That was 3 years ago and I'm quite happy with my current progress. My practice is very consistent and I go deeper into consciousness every day. 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by ardacigin

[ivory]

@ardacigin Cool post. Just out of curiosity how much formal practice do you do daily? Also, do you make time for friends, hobbies, exercise and the like?

[molosku]

@ardacigin

How much time you are spending on average meditating per week nowadays? I remember reading your older posts where you said you were cloking (to me) crazy hours. Would you say that there is a personal, semi-definite "loss of returns" after some point? Also, nice post Nowadays I just come to the forum to check out what you and Leo are posting and what crazy shit is locked this time lol

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by molosku

[moon777light]

2 hours ago, ardacigin said:

Most importantly, I had a lot of emotional issues. I wasn't clinically depressed or anything but I certainly was not a 'happy' person. My mood tended to be down and sad most of the time. I had a lot of craving for video games and other pursuits in fixated ways. I had a lot of mind wandering. And I realize only now that I've been reinforcing these moods constantly without knowing.

how long into your meditation practice have you felt this frustration? And when did it start disappearing, like a year or 2? I am experiencing exactly what is written above doing the TMI method, nearly word for word. Especially during longer sits i start having the same song repeat over and over again, and not just the a song but 1 particular sentence in the song and it.drives.me.mad. lol

1 hour ago, molosku said:

Nowadays I just come to the forum to check out what you and Leo are posting and what crazy shit is locked this time lol

 

honestly saammee 

[ardacigin]

@moon777light Hi! It started disappearing radically a month ago when the meditative joy fully developed but I had less resistance in the past 10 months. So this year was way easier and fun.

So when you get around stage 6-7 in TMI, your resistance will slowly drop. Once you get to stage 8 solidly, it will drop RADICALLY and your desire to meditate will be huge. This happens due to the effortlessness of stage 7 and the meditative joy of stage 8.

I also have certain strategies I plan to do in the future to get to stage 9 equanimity. My meditations are already going in that direction but I need to work with stage 8 for a few more months until I feel ready to do practices for stage 9.

I'll share my development with you guys when I feel like I'm solidly in stage 9 territory.

 

[Inliytened1]

@ardacigin great post.  

[ardacigin]

@molosku There is no loss of return. But the physical pain still interrupts long 2 hour SDS sits. Even with crazy levels of meditative joy (at least as much as I can do), I can pull equanimity to a nice level so that I can do a 90 mins SDS without too much trouble. 

Depending on how well I've combined equanimity and meditative joy in open spacious awareness, I can go towards 1 hour and 45 mins in an SDS but at this point physical pains starts to screw with equanimity levels. So doing longer SDS sits like 3-4 hours is still not possible for me. I need to develop more physical and mental pliancy.

Thankfully, meditative joy makes all this process really fun and enjoyable  

[ardacigin]

@moloskuBut a proper well developed stage 9 TMI meditator can actually fo 3-4 hours long SDS sits without too much trouble. So my strategy now is to get used to this meditative joy in stage 8. And figure out how to tap into the spaciousness and high equanimity levels of 4rth jhana. 4rth jhana more of less corresponds to TMI stage 9.

I can already do 3rd jhana (even sometimes in daily life) but 4rth jhana is really challenging because equanimity levels must be on INSANE levels. And this must be combined with open awareness.

This corresponds to 'Meditating on Mental States' technique described in TMI stage 9. It is described as attention and awareness fusing together so the distinction between them is mostly eliminated. This has an open spacious quality to it. This is in a sense 4rth jhana practice once you get the equanimity to high levels in that fusion of awareness and attention.

 But I've managed to get there a few times in a formal SDS sit. I just need to practice more.

After I get to 4th jhana spaciousness, equanimity and combine that with meditative joy, stable attention, introspective and metacognitive awareness I've already developed, and learn to maintain this without too much effort, awakening will follow after that. I'm pretty sure insights will get easier on that level of mastery. Because at that point, I'd peaking towards stage 10.  

And I've already had temporary insights that challenged my existing worldview of being a self, so I'm sure things will eventually get to legit permanent stream entry levels once I get to stage 9-10 aspect of the practice.

Edited November 22, 2019 by ardacigin

[BecomingBuddha]

@ardacigin You have achieved this by following TMI and at stage 5-6 incorporating LB's right Concentration?

[ardacigin]

15 minutes ago, BecomingBuddha said:

@ardacigin You have achieved this by following TMI and at stage 5-6 incorporating LB's right Concentration?

@BecomingBuddhaI have never read LB's book on right concentration before I've attained fully developed meditative joy. My interest in that book rose after I've already attained 1st and 2nd jhana in daily life. This was purely due to TMI.

Only after I've stabilized happiness for a few days, I've asked myself: 'Somebody else must also have experienced this' and I've realized what I'm experiencing is a more stable and pervading form of meditative joy similar to jhanas explained in LB's book. 

To specific, I was doing extrospective awareness of sounds + breath attention in effortlessness for 4 hours. But I was in a state of dullness that day. Even though nothing too significant happened, I remember my concentration to the breath and awareness of sounds being extremely acute. I was unusually focused even in a state of dullness. And I could maintain that quality for 4 hours straight. That is something I've never attempted doing up until that day. 

I wanted to do this after watching a documentary about solitary confinement. I thought 'lets do a simple solitary confinement experiement and stay in this room for 4 hours while doing TMI practice. I want to see how much I'll suffer'

So I had the effortlessness of TMI Stage 7 but I also had the dullness described in stage 6. Even though mindfulness was not optimal, I've managed to do it. My body was creating all sorts of boredom, frustration-like emotions. My mind was in heavy dullness. In spite of all that, I had unusually high concentration to the breath and awareness of external sounds for 4 hours straight.

Regardless, this stable happiness and fully developed meditative joy started to pervade my life that night. It was sudden. And I don't remember exactly how it arose in the mind. I've stopped the 4 hour meditation around 5 pm.

I felt pretty good. And around 7-8 pm, effortless and intense meditative joy started to pervade my entire life. And ever since that day, I've had close to effortless access to joy and happiness (with varying intensity and depth) in daily life and meditation. Even now, as I'm writing this, my mind is in a state of effortless joy and happiness.

Edited November 22, 2019 by ardacigin

[BecomingBuddha]

@ardacigin

37 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

@BecomingBuddhaI have never read LB's book on right concentration before I've attained fully developed meditative joy. My interest in that book rose after I've already attained 1st and 2nd jhana in daily life. This was purely due to TMI.

Only after I've stabilized happiness for a few days, I've asked myself: 'Somebody else must also have experienced this' and I've realized what I'm experiencing is a more stable and pervading form of meditative joy similar to jhanas explained in LB's book. 

To specific, I was doing extrospective awareness of sounds + breath attention in effortlessness for 4 hours. But I was in a state of dullness that day.

So I had the effortlessness of TMI Stage 7 but I also had the dullness described in stage 6. Regardless, this stable happiness and fully developed meditative joy started to pervade my life that night. It was sudden. And I don't remember exactly how it arose in the mind. I've stopped the 4 hour meditation around 5 pm.

I felt pretty good. And around 7-8 pm, effortless and intense meditative joy started to pervade my entire life. And ever since that day, I've had close to effortless access to joy and happiness (with varying intensity and depth) in daily life and meditation. Even now, as I'm writing this, my mind is in a state of effortless joy and happiness.

Ok, I understand, thanks! 

Do you have any advice for starting this TMI journey? 

[ardacigin]

@BecomingBuddha Sure  I have 3 tips for you:

1- Read TMI but also listen to its audio book on youtube. There is part 2 to this video as well.

 

2- Listen to Culadasa's videos on meditation Subscribe to this channel:

 3- Read LB's book and do ALL TMI practices with a slight smile on your face without creating tension. Always look for joy and happiness however subtle in the mind and body. If I did that, I'd have progressed faster. Also, meditate for at least 1 hour everyday. 90 mins is preffered on days you are extra motivated. You don't have to do SDS sits. Move when you feel discomfort and continue meditating.

[BecomingBuddha]

8 hours ago, ardacigin said:

@BecomingBuddha Sure  I have 3 tips for you:

1- Read TMI but also listen to its audio book on youtube. There is part 2 to this video as well.

 

2- Listen to Culadasa's videos on meditation Subscribe to this channel:

 3- Read LB's book and do ALL TMI practices with a slight smile on your face without creating tension. Always look for joy and happiness however subtle in the mind and body. If I did that, I'd have progressed faster. Also, meditate for at least 1 hour everyday. 90 mins is preffered on days you are extra motivated. You don't have to do SDS sits. Move when you feel discomfort and continue meditating.

Thank you very much! This means a lot 

[ardacigin]

On 11/22/2019 at 0:24 PM, ivory said:

@ardacigin Cool post. Just out of curiosity how much formal practice do you do daily? Also, do you make time for friends, hobbies, exercise and the like?

I have time to work on my career and hobbies like piano and video games aside from spirituality. But my social life takes a hit. That is fine. You can't do everything. I'm not a social butterfly and my desire to socialize is very manageable.

I practice a 3-5 hours of daily meditation combined with 60-90 mins formal sessions every day (these days). I do this regardless of how hectic, busy or problematic my life is. I can apply mindfulness really well in times of business crises and stress. My resilience overall is 100 times greater than what it used to be. Depending on how deep mindfulness is, I feel literally invincible in the face of 'bad' life events. (unless they are extremely serious like the death of a family member etc.)

Mindfulness is currently the focal point where everything rests on. I no longer experience ego backlash and spirituality has started to become infused to my life thanks to stage 8 TMI practice.

[Nak Khid]

On 11/23/2019 at 4:04 PM, ardacigin said:

I have time to work on my career and hobbies like piano and video games aside from spirituality. But my social life takes a hit. That is fine. You can't do everything. I'm not a social butterfly and my desire to socialize is very manageable.

I practice a 3-5 hours of daily meditation combined with 60-90 mins formal sessions every day (these days). I do this regardless of how hectic, busy or problematic my life is. I can apply mindfulness really well in times of business crises and stress. My resilience overall is 100 times greater than what it used to be. Depending on how deep mindfulness is, I feel literally invincible in the face of 'bad' life events. (unless they are extremely serious like the death of a family member etc.)

Mindfulness is currently the focal point where everything rests on. I no longer experience ego backlash and spirituality has started to become infused to my life thanks to stage 8 TMI practice.

Can you speak about the differences of meditating with a mindfulness approach where one notes
thoughts in order to let go of them and be in the present
vs.
repeating a mantra to transcend

Also what is the difference in what your are calling "formal sessions" and are those mindfulness of TMI ?

thanks