Isn't green political agenda the best possible?

[Nivsch]

Most green people dont want to flatten all hierarchies or something like that. These are margins extremists.

Vast majority of green people are relatively just sane and moderate people... and only want equality in opportunities (not results) for all.

So what Integral yellow can do better?

"But they are superficial in their protests and wont solve anything". Why? My political party will actually work in it day and night if they win. 

Equality in opportunities for all, enviromemtal caring, social-democratic or social-capitalist economy, more physical and mental health access to all, security (army, police). In the future more and more into more nature based health system.

What can be better than that?

And this is a... Moderate and sane GREEN policy.

What integral-yellow will do better (society speaking) than this? I really cant see.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Nivsch

[The Awakened Viking]

lol, this attitude of "what can be better than that" is EXACTLY what makes Green, and all other stages, eventually go blind to its limitations and eventually turn evil again. The attitude that nothing else can do better. Of course every stage looks at itself as the One True World View, that's what Spiral Dynamics is trying to remind us of, and that as consciousness in people grow, they flow with the world in different ways. Yellow's individual expression might not find its place in an over-saturated Green society. 

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Let's say you actually are a healthy green and get a well deserved leadership position and do a lot of good, as Green take over and the hundreds of millions of people around you adopt it, the limitations of green will start pouring fourth. All stages can stabilize in a healthy way and lead people into good happy lives, we as humans probably fit right into Purple with our little family tribe and guidance of a humble shaman and their plant medicine, but Purple fell apart once the amount of people in its society grew past its boundaries, higher stages are better at governing more people and diversity. 

After a while Yellow would try to answer the problems of a Green that has grown out of bounds, and the blind Green collective identity would see Yellow's help as an attack on its existence, even though Yellow is considered "higher". 

No one has the full picture and can define what's best for everyone, especially when that everyone is 7,5 billion people. Yes, mass genuine adoption of Green would be healthy for the 1st world countries right now, but eventually the limitations would show themselves, and Yellow could actually "do better" in many ways

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, The Awakened Viking said:

Let's say you actually are a healthy green and get a well deserved leadership position and do a lot of good, as Green take over and the hundreds of millions of people around you adopt it, the limitations of green will start pouring fourth. All stages can stabilize in a healthy way and lead people into good happy lives, we as humans probably fit right into Purple with our little family

What social limitations will be in a moderate green policy?

You mention purple to give example of limitation of a stage or you meant to something more?

1 hour ago, The Awakened Viking said:

Yes, mass genuine adoption of Green would be healthy for the 1st world countries right now, but eventually the limitations would show themselves, and Yellow could actually "do better" in many ways

What limitations?

Edited November 21, 2019 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, The Awakened Viking said:

lol, this attitude of "what can be better than that" is EXACTLY what makes Green, and all other stages, eventually go blind to its limitations and eventually turn evil again. The attitude that nothing else can do better. 

But moderate green IS better than all the previous stages because it comes later in the conclusion making process.

[Apparition of Jack]

@The Awakened Viking Yes, Green has limitations, but why focus on them now? Orange and Blue have limitations too, and it's those limitations that we're seeing are causing all of the major problems around the world with climate destruction, rising nationalism, etc. At this point in history, it's Green that the world needs. Just because it isn't perfect, that doesn't mean we can't just ignore it or try and skip it ahead because Yellow sounds "nicer" or "more rational." Embracing and embodying Green is a crucial part of the development processes.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Apparition of Jack

[Hansu]

EDIT: Deleted

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Hansu

[Nickyy]

@Nivsch @NivschNothing wrong with greens policies , equal opportunities and the like. The down side of green is that even though its reached a profound level of truth, in practicality is still delusional because it's always trying to turn everything into green. It's actually part of the problem.

Yellow will take greens ideas (because that is what is needed at the moment) but be able to mediate between the different colours in order that they understand each other better. 

Currently the state is one structure trying to impose it's values over other values. 

Yellow understands the importance of each values system in relation to the overall health of the spiral. So yellow can tease appart the pathological aspects of a meme and the healthy aspects of a meme and therefore transform it so that it plays it's part in the whole without turning into a bully.

Green doesn't have any of that capacity because greens idea of health is to just turn everything into green. 

[Apparition of Jack]

@Nickyy Why the singling out of Green though? Orange and Blue - the two stages that currently dominate world politics - do everything you accuse Green of doing, and do it worse. Yes, Green has limitations, but it also has serious benefits, as it moves on and transcends the limitations of Orange and Blue that preceded it. And it's those benefits - a strong call to environmentalism, a desire for a more equitable distribution of wealth, a concern for cultures and nationalities outside of its native culture/nationality - are the sorts of ideas the world we need to navigate the turmoils of climate crisis, exuberant inequality, violent nationalism, and so on.

This is also not to demonise Orange and Blue. These stages are necessary parts of the Spiral with their own internal wisdom. But as far as meeting the challenges of the 21st century, they are rapidly becoming out of date. If you're serious about Self-Actualisation, pushing into Green at this conjuncture in human history should be one of your top priorities, IMO.

[Nickyy]

6 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

@Nickyy Why the singling out of Green though? Orange and Blue - the two stages that currently dominate world politics - do everything you accuse Green of doing, and do it worse. Yes, Green has limitations, but it also has serious benefits, as it moves on and transcends the limitations of Orange and Blue that preceded it. And it's those benefits - a strong call to environmentalism, a desire for a more equitable distribution of wealth, a concern for cultures and nationalities outside of its native culture/nationality - are the sorts of ideas the world we need to navigate the turmoils of climate crisis, exuberant inequality, violent nationalism, and so on.

This is also not to demonise Orange and Blue. These stages are necessary parts of the Spiral with their own internal wisdom. But as far as meeting the challenges of the 21st century, they are rapidly becoming out of date. If you're serious about Self-Actualisation, pushing into Green at this conjuncture in human history should be one of your top priorities, IMO.

Notice I didn't sling green,  what I was suggesting is that green not be allowed to be the dominant force in politics, but yellow to impose it's integral views on society in order to use the healthy parts of each structure which will put each structure in its rightful place as an integral part of the whole. 

Greens ideas are needed, but it needs to be integrated with orange and blue. Currently green orange and blue are at war and just blaming orange and blue for all the problems is short sighted, because the reality of it is we need orange and blue, and green, but we need them to behave themselves and see themselves as partial truths rather than absolute truths 

[Nickyy]

15 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

@Nickyy 

This is also not to demonise Orange and Blue. These stages are necessary parts of the Spiral with their own internal wisdom. But as far as meeting the challenges of the 21st century, they are rapidly becoming out of date. If you're serious about Self-Actualisation, pushing into Green at this conjuncture in human history should be one of your top priorities, IMO.

You're actually on the cusp of thinking integrally. You understand that blue and orange are essential aspects of the system. 

All you need to recognize is that there are healthy expressions and unhealthy expressions of blue and orange, and that what's needed isn't just a move to green, but a yellow integral big picture overseeing the whole event. Yellow will reform blue and orange and force it to serve the whole system. Green by itself cannot do that because it has it's own agenda. In other words it's not that blue and orange are out of date, it's that they have become bullies and don't know their rightful place in the system. They need education from a yellow perspective.

Think of yellow as the cosmic police force of politics 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Nickyy

[Hatfort]

Green is not the best, but is the next step in the ladder, which makes it the best right now. Yellow is better, but you can only reach it from green.

As human kind, we are yet in red - blue - orange. Only the most developed countries are implementing some green. Younger generations are more open to it, with a generational change of about 40 years we'll be seeing a lot of green. Beware of triggered oranges, they will yell a lot and project it into others beside.

[Apparition of Jack]

3 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

Notice I didn't sling green,  what I was suggesting is that green not be allowed to be the dominant force in politics, but yellow to impose it's integral views on society in order to use the healthy parts of each structure which will put each structure in its rightful place as an integral part of the whole.

That would be nice, but unfortunately it's just not realistic with the current political climate of the world today. Most people are still at stage Red/Blue/Orange, so the lofty, integral wisdom of Yellow would go completely overlooked. Plus, we're not talking about getting a handful of people into positions of power here, we're talking about changing the fundamental Spiral makeup of society. Leaders can only rise as much as their citizens allow them too, after all.

Quote

Greens ideas are needed, but it needs to be integrated with orange and blue. Currently green orange and blue are at war and just blaming orange and blue for all the problems is short sighted, because the reality of it is we need orange and blue, and green, but we need them to behave themselves and see themselves as partial truths rather than absolute truths 

I agree there's no need for unnecessary demonisation and mud-flinging, but you have to understand, Orange and Blue will fight back against Green no matter what. Even if Green came to the table with an open heart, open mind, good intentions, and warm and fuzzy feelings, Blue and Orange would just take advantage of that and go back to denying minorities their rights / dumping CO2 in the atmosphere / etc whilst laughing at those "silly Green hippies." We cannot solve our large-scale problems with nationalistic and profit-driven thinking. Yes, Yellow wisdom will play a part in all this, but they can only help insofar as they help bring up the Orange and Blue culture to a Green level of development so that this new Green culture can then fix our systemic problems. If Yellow simply tried to placate the lower stages through cautious mediations, all of these problems will still come to bite us in the ass.

[Nickyy]

23 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

That would be nice, but unfortunately it's just not realistic with the current political climate of the world today. Most people are still at stage Red/Blue/Orange, so the lofty, integral wisdom of Yellow would go completely overlooked. 

Would it? I think that the cutting edge who are able to understand red blue orange and green from the inside and speak their languages is the least threatening and most inclusive way of doing politics. Nobody understands yellow, but the point is not to understand yellow, the point is yellow understands the lower memes and thus has the power to create change in them. We have never had an idea like this in our entire history, a values system that isn't in direct competition with all other values system, but takes what works from each meme and puts it to work for the whole system. 

An integral leader would be able to address the values of all of the memes. Someone at green only resonates with people at green. So if green is in the minority then a green leadership is not going to happen. The same goes for trump, orange are loving trump because he's handing whats left of government and democracy over to corporate capitalists, the 1% while he bullshits to the American public by pretending to appeal to their values. Orange and blue people are being taken a ride into legal slavery while orange obliterates all competition and political threat. But this isn't orange itself, it's just orange gone mad. Orange in and of itself is not a bad thing. Just like green and blue in and of itself is not a bad thing. The bad thing is when all of these memes are trying to place themselves as the dominant ideology. 

Yellow is going to appeal to all values and present ideas that work for all values, which no 1st tier system is capable of.

If you're married to the idea that you need collective stability in green before you can move to yellow then you might want to address that belief. It's obvious that green is never going to actually be the dominant force because as you say the majority don't resonate with it.

People individually will be able to develop into green organically without a green political dominance. 

There will be no collective green stability because when you understand green you will see that it's only real agenda is to turn everything into green. It's delusional because it doesn't care about development . It doesn't see that it's standing on the shoulders of giants. It's a very dangerous political ideology from the standpoint of the big picture. 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Nickyy

[Apparition of Jack]

22 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

If you're married to the idea that you need stability in green before you can move to yellow then you might want to address that belief. It's obvious that green is never going to actually be the dominant force because as you say nobody resonates with it.

I never said that. In fact Green resonates with a lot of people. Look at Bernie Sander's movement. It's the biggest popular political movement in the US for 40 years and it's a solid Green. The issue is to get more people into Green, since it's Green wisdom that can match the complexities of our rapidly evolving world, moreso than Orange or Blue wisdom.

Also, I think you're severely underestimating Green, if I may be honest. Green is not a group of cackling SJWs making fun of whoever isn't as "woke" as them on twitter, anymore than Blue is a group of fire-and-brimstone preachers who want to burn gay people at the stake and make everyone wear grey clothing. What you're presenting here is a bad caricature of Green that very rarely lines up with the reality of Green. Green is simply a recognition that cultures can be relative, that society's needs can't be fulfilled through private profit alone, that the environment is crucial to our well-being, and so on. Its the beginning of awareness of the inter-connected nature of our society, which is exactly what is becoming more and more true as globalisation increases.

Logic, reasoning, meta-analysis, critical inquiry - these are all tools at Green's disposal. In fact, in the hands of a healthy Green person, they will become more effective than in the hands of a healthy Blue or Orange person. Just because it hasn't made the full jump to Tier 2, doesn't mean that Green isn't incredibly advanced as far as human development goes. There's a reason why it's the final stage in Tier 1, and why it's also the stage that Tier 2 comes out of.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Apparition of Jack

[Nickyy]

9 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

I never said that. In fact Green resonates with a lot of people. Look at Bernie Sander's movement. It's the biggest popular political movement in the US for 40 years and it's a solid Green. The issue is to get more people into Green, since it's Green wisdom that can match the complexities of our rapidly evolving world, moreso than Orange or Blue wisdom.

Also, I think you're severely underestimating Green, if I may be honest. Green is not a group of cackling SJWs making fun of whoever isn't as "woke" as them on twitter, anymore than Blue is a group of fire-and-brimstone preachers who want to burn gay people at the stake and make everyone wear grey clothing. What you're presenting here is a bad caricature of Green that very rarely lines up with the reality of Green. Green is simply a recognition that cultures can be relative, that society's needs can't be fulfilled through private profit alone, that the environment is crucial to our well-being, and so on. Its the beginning of awareness of the inter-connected nature of our society, which is exactly what is becoming more and more true as globalisation increases.

Logic, reasoning, meta-analysis, critical inquiry - these are all tools at Green's disposal. In fact, in the hands of a healthy Green person, they will become more effective than in the hands of a healthy Blue or Orange person. Just because it hasn't made the full jump to Tier 2, doesn't mean that Green isn't incredibly advanced as far as human development goes. There's a reason why it's final last stage in Tier 1, and why it's also the stage that Tier 2 comes out of.

Who mentioned SJWs?

It's very difficult to have a discussion with someone who can't see that I know what green is. We're operating on different wave lengths at this point.

I'm not talking about green and it's developed structure and manifestations. I'm refering to its core ideology. 

When you truly understand what green is and how one philosophical idea of relativism supports a whole separate structure of consciousness, you will understand that it's logically absurd and self refuting.

When you get to grips with green as an idea that orgnaizes other ideas in the psyches of people you will see how dangerous it is.

Until then all you have is cheesy images and traits and definable social policies to base your argument off 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Nickyy

[Apparition of Jack]

3 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

When you truly understand what green is and how one philosophical idea of relativism supports a whole separate structure of consciousness, you will understand that it's logically absurd and self refuting.

So your beef is with relativism then? In that case, what, may I ask, is it about relativism that you disagree with specifically?

Edited November 21, 2019 by Apparition of Jack

[Nickyy]

@Apparition of Jack

Sure,

Relativism is a philosophical idea that all perspectives are valid because all perspectives are relative to each other. 

Now this sounds very nice and spritual and fair, and it has brought some very healthy changes to society as a result. 

But relativism is a self refuting idea because it doesn't see that itself is a hierarchical idea that is seeking dominance as a perspective. 

Careful observation of how green has worked it's way into the collective consciousness over the last 60 years since it reached a critical tipping point will show you that with the light side of green comes a dark side. Which we are now becoming acutely aware of.

It is 1st tier because it's still not really relativistic , it's just another values structure that thinks it's the only values structure that represents truth. Therefore by default relativism cannot deal with 1st tier problems because it IS part of the the problem, and is the most dangerous. It's a Woolf in sheep's clothing.

We can never allow green to be the dominating political ideology because it will regress to red tribalism and prevent the integration of a healthy spiral. 

Green is its own worst enemy 

[Forestluv]

52 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

I'm not talking about green and it's developed structure and manifestations. I'm refering to its core ideology. 

When you truly understand what green is and how one philosophical idea of relativism supports a whole separate structure of consciousness, you will understand that it's logically absurd and self refuting.

It's easy to become contracted within intellectual constructs. These can be very helpful in building frameworks, yet they are very limited. A major part of evolving from Orange to Green and into Tier2 does not come through theory and logic. It comes through practice, observation, direct experience, awakening and embodiment. For example, we can spend all day everyday intellectualizing about Green, yet that aint actual Green. There are deeper levels of understanding that do not come through through theorizing (although theory can also be helpful).

One can theorize about Green and not realize they are contracted within theory. For example, I did a lot of conceptualization about marginalized and ostracized groups. I did a lot of conceptualization about objectivism and relativism. A lot of conceptualization of stages. This is just one form of understanding and imo, it is a relatively shallow form. Understanding through direct experience is much much deeper. For example, rather than sit around conceptualizing about marginalized/ostracized groups, I moved to central america and actually lived within poverty-stricken marginalized groups. I volunteered in a psychiatric hospital and spent a lot of time with people with various mental illnesses that have been marginalized/ostracized. I dated a black woman and directly experienced racism and my privilege. This direct experience understanding cannot be attained through logic and intellectualizing. It is only attained through direct experience. This direct experience, integrated with theory, allows for embodiment - which is a much deeper level of understanding than theory alone.   

52 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

It's very difficult to have a discussion with someone who can't see that I know what green is. .

Knowing is a relative term and it's very easy for the mind to get lulled into thinking a particular relative knowing is actual knowing, objective knowing or absolute knowing. There are many realms and degrees of "knowing". For example, someone may have a lot of factual knowledge, yet very little direct experience knowledge and embodied knowledge. 

The conflation between relative, objective and absolute is like a fog machine and makes it difficult to evolve/progress. As well, there is often personal attachment/identification which also hinders progress. For example, the statement "I know what green is" is a highly limited and contracted state. It doesn't allow space for expansion. 

One of the most important realizations is how little we know. If we consider the the infinite amount of what can be known, we can realize we no virtually nothing. We could spend our entire life time studying a pencil and after 60 years of dedicated research, barely scratch the surface. Each of us knows 0.00000000 (add 1 trillion zeros) of infinite knowledge. This rounds off the zero. Yet the mind often personalizes knowledge and becomes attached/identified with it. It is like a person holds a single grain of sand in their hand and becomes mesmerized such that they believe that grain is the beach. Realizing this is very liberating and allows space for unlimited exploration. 

 

[Nickyy]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

It's easy to become contracted within intellectual constructs. These can be very helpful in building frameworks, yet they are very limited. A major part of evolving from Orange to Green and into Tier2 does not come through theory and logic. It comes through practice, observation, direct experience, awakening and embodiment. For example, we can spend all day everyday intellectualizing about Green, yet that aint actual Green. There are deeper levels of understanding that do not come through through theorizing (although theory can also be helpful).

One can theorize about Green and not realize they are contracted within theory. For example, I did a lot of conceptualization about marginalized and ostracized groups. I did a lot of conceptualization about objectivism and relativism. A lot of conceptualization of stages. This is just one form of understanding and imo, it is a relatively shallow form. Understanding through direct experience is much much deeper. For example, rather than sit around conceptualizing about marginalized/ostracized groups, I moved to central america and actually lived within poverty-stricken marginalized groups. I volunteered in a psychiatric hospital and spent a lot of time with people with various mental illnesses that have been marginalized/ostracized. I dated a black woman and directly experienced racism and my privilege. This direct experience understanding cannot be attained through logic and intellectualizing. It is only attained through direct experience. This direct experience, integrated with theory, allows for embodiment - which is a much deeper level of understanding than theory alone.   

I'm well aware of the advantages of green. I live in the UK and a multicultural city. I did my fair share of activism and psychotherapy. At this point I've just had enough of it. 

Most people considering integral ideas have also had enough of it

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

I'm well aware of the advantages of green. I live in the UK and a multicultural city. I did my fair share of activism and psychotherapy. At this point I've just had enough of it. 

Most people considering integral ideas have also had enough of it

I'm not referring to "advantages" and "disadvantages". That is an intellectual framework. Such frameworks have value, yet it's easy to become contracted within them. 

Living in a multicultural city is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a much deeper level of immersion. More like living in an impoverished village in Honduras for a year. You would likely get direct experience and deeper understanding.

As well, some people have predispositions. For example, some people have predispositions to intellectualizing and analyzing. It's just there predispositions and personality. Yet they will have a much harder time understanding that which is nonverbal and post-logical.

Consider the quote "Most people considering integral ideas have also had enough of it". This is a highly contracted statement - with resistance, attachment and identification. Yet it is very difficult to see when a person is immersed within that contraction. This is part of having a human brain and mind - I've experienced it as well.

There are aspects of Green you are not seeing, have not realized, have not integrated and have not embodied. You can stay within your realm or expand. It's up to you. I'm not saying one is better than the other. It's like being in room 227 in a Grand Hotel. If you want to stay within room 227 and explore that room - great. Go for it. Yet there are many other rooms you are not aware of. There is value in exploring room 227 and there is value in leaving 227 and exploring other rooms. 

There is a distinction between "considering" integral ideas through logical thought stories and actually experiencing, being and embodying. The map is not the territory.