Is enlightenment exclusive?

[mandyjw]

When I was a kid the thing that started to "break" Christianity for me was becoming conscious of how powerful love was and how core it was to Jesus' teachings, yet there was supposedly a "hell" and a way of sorting people out into heaven or hell. This could not align with love. No one could answer my questions of what happened to people who lived in other parts of the world and died without knowing about Jesus, or before Jesus even lived. Did they go to hell? Any explanation I could get that was satisfactory sort of the broke the whole religion apart into pieces. I eventually satisfied myself by dropping my belief in hell, and almost exclusively focused on the teachings of Jesus, ignoring the rest of the Bible. I found scripture and studies to back up my revised beliefs but I was still left with the problem of the reward of heaven, which I did not drop. People were still sorted into eternal life or... not.

Well now, here I am today somehow still left with this problem. As long as there are other people, they either are given the opportunity in life to self actualize and pursue higher truth, or they aren't. The only way I can solve this problem is by believing that consciousness is itself beyond needing to be "seen" or recognized by the illusory "owner" of the consciousness. 

The only way it can be solved is by saying that there is no such thing as enlightenment, that there is no such thing as people who are enlightened. I tried to turn this belief into dogma several months ago. I was furious when Leo or others would talk about levels of awakening. And yet all of that blew up in my face, and I'm very aware that there are at least in this illusory story of awakening, something that can be described as levels, of the role that intellectual understanding plays in awakening, and that past and future are an inherent part of timelessness. 

I still really really want enlightenment to be available to anyone and everyone. 

Am I playing the role of the observer? When I watch a movie, even though only observing a story I still feel pain and joy of the characters to such a high degree that I don't like to watch movies at all.  When I have a dream in which I don't have a character to play, I'm still emotionally affected by what happens. 

Is this as it should be? 

 

[seeking_brilliance]

If you play into the story, then yes, it is exclusive and impossible for every human to be enlightened, at least in one lifetime. (that's another thing you have to consider, if you like the story of reincarnation, is that you are trying to have everyone saved in one lifetime).  But if you step outside of the apparent story which has been playing out for millenia, there is no one to be enlightened, there are no one suffering, all is perfect and at peace. Also, don't forget that many of the unconscious stories playing out are catalysts for your own awakening. Everyone has their part in this Play. Many identify with the roles and feel suffering. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by seeking_brilliance

[Dumuzzi]

Hi Mandy,

I'm not sure Christianity has an answer to these question, which is probably why a lot of people are leaving it or becoming disillusioned with it.

The concept of Hell exists in other religions as well, but it is generally temporary, a way to work off bad Karma, until you're cleansed. Then you generally go to one of the many heavenly planes, often for a long time, based on your good deeds. After the fruits of your good deeds have expired, you are reborn again and start over. This cycle is known as Samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth. Enlightenment aims to break the cycle, burn the fruits of Karma (both good and bad) and escape Samsara to be reunited with Oneness again. At the moment of Enlightenment, dual opposites cancel each other out and non-Duality is achieved in a burst of light and energy, much like a matter-antimatter annihilation.

[seeking_brilliance]

1 minute ago, Dumuzzi said:

Hi Mandy,

I'm not sure Christianity has an answer to these question, which is probably why a lot of people are leaving it or becoming disillusioned with it.

The concept of Hell exists in other religions as well, but it is generally temporary, a way to work off bad Karma, until you're cleansed. Then you generally go to one of the many heavenly planes, often for a long time, based on your good deeds. After the fruits of your good deeds have expired, you are reborn again and start over. This cycle is known as Samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth. Enlightenment aims to break the cycle, burn the fruits of Karma (both good and bad) and escape Samsara to be reunited with Oneness again. At the moment of Enlightenment, dual opposites cancel each other out and non-Duality is achieved in a burst of light and energy, much like a matter-antimatter annihilation.

But who is breaking the cycle of rebirth?  Me? Mandy?  Absolute self?   who??? lol

[Dumuzzi]

7 minutes ago, seeking_brilliance said:

But who is breaking the cycle of rebirth?  Me? Mandy?  Absolute self?   who??? lol

Your individuated self, as opposed to your Higher Self, which is just an observer. 

It is all well to say that there in One Self and everything else is an illusion. Technically, that's true, but in the play-out material world that we inhabit each individuated self must follow its life path and destiny, until it finds a way to break the cycle.

[seeking_brilliance]

7 minutes ago, Dumuzzi said:

Your individuated self, as opposed to your Higher Self, which is just an observer. 

It is all well to say that there in One Self and everything else is an illusion. Technically, that's true, but in the play-out material world that we inhabit each individuated self must follow its life path and destiny, until it finds a way to break the cycle.

But what happens after the individuated self breaks this cycle?  What's the point? Is the memory bank saved and uploaded to some sort of cloud, where we (the individuated self) live in "heaven" for eternity, as opposed to those who are still in "hell", working on breaking the cycle? Or only merge with ONE, because if that's the case we are already there...

[Dumuzzi]

10 minutes ago, seeking_brilliance said:

But what happens after the individuated self breaks this cycle?  What's the point? Is the memory bank saved and uploaded to some sort of cloud, where we (the individuated self) live in "heaven" for eternity, as opposed to those who are still in "hell", working on breaking the cycle? Or only merge with ONE, because if that's the case we are already there...

Heaven and Hell aren't eternal, they are part of the temporary delusion. You could think of them as waypoints between lives. In reality, they aren't places at all, rather states of mind. You put yourself into a particular state of mind after death, based on the kind of life you've lived and what you think you deserve.

The spiritual path I'm familiar with is Tantra, where you raise your Kundalini Serpent to the crown and in the process burn away the fruits of Karma and all ties that bind you to the material world. This way, you escape the cycle of rebirth as there is no longer any Karma left to work off and no ties that keep you here.

In this state of non-duality, distinction ceases to be and you just Are. There is no subject and object any more, no observer and observed, you are eternal, limitless, all-knowing and universal. 

[seeking_brilliance]

@Dumuzzi I follow what you are saying, but I'm not sure if anyone can ever explain to me who or what gets reincarnated, and what it means to break that, as opposed to living out several more lifetimes. I don't remember other lifetimes anyway , unless you count the thousands I have in my dreams at night. 

 

21 minutes ago, Dumuzzi said:

The spiritual path I'm familiar with is Tantra, where you raise your Kundalini Serpent to the crown and in the process burn away the fruits of Karma and all ties that bind you to the material world. This way, you escape the cycle of rebirth as there is no longer any Karma left to work off and no ties that keep you here.

Who is bound to the material world? Can @seeking_brilliance escape that, while @mandyjw remains?  What's the difference? Who is tied down here? surely not absolute self, so who? @seeking_brilliance will die one day anyway, so what's it to him if he is reborn or not? He won't remember anyway.  Or is this story about reincarnation just a fun theory to give us something to do?

 

haha I'm just being obstinate this morning.  It'll pass. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by seeking_brilliance

[mandyjw]

@Dumuzzi The same "privilege" of heaven applies no matter what the religion, the idea that there is a cycle to break free of and one who can break free at all creates a game of winners and losers. Just because this is the thing that ruined Christianity for me says nothing about Christianity, it says something about the model of religion itself. The same exact problem exists in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Actualized.org. 

If God himself was ever whole and perfect and decided to disperse into this what we often call mess and chaos, and you are God, and were never separate but always whole and always that... how could you ever get to state of realization where you would not make the same choice again to disperse into illusory form? Illusory form, the world just is what it is this moment is just occurs on its own, it just is. 

The question is why pursue enlightenment, why does this story line play out of a singular being breaking the illusion then continuing their life in the illusion enjoying the coming and going of forms, enjoying the illusion of other beings who are completely caught in the illusion. Out of compassion one tries to teach others to follow suit, but there is no one to follow, there is nothing to achieve and there are no others to teach. Yet to story of teachers and insights and the notion of a spiritual path is probably the most tantalizing entertaining thing you could do with your life. But it is delusion? 

Should we all just admit, we're just here to have a good time? 

I never could understand why almost all the videos on America's Funniest Home videos were people getting hurt. Why is it funny to see someone trip and fall or have some bizarre accident and get hurt? Could my compassion and love strictly my ego? Is the will of God that I am able to laugh when someone suffers? Does God enjoy everything that's happening? 

I don't want that. I want to be sad for the movie characters. I want to be happy for them. I want to live in illusion and delusion, even after I've seen through it to the perfection of love, even after I've awakened and lived in a state of bliss and seeing through eyes of perfection, I came back to this because I chose it. I like it better. I prefer it. 

[Dumuzzi]

19 minutes ago, seeking_brilliance said:

@Dumuzzi I follow what you are saying, but I'm not sure if anyone can ever explain to me who or what gets reincarnated, and what it means to break that, as opposed to living out several more lifetimes. I don't remember other lifetimes anyway , unless you count the thousands I have in my dreams at night. 

 

Who is bound to the material world? Can @seeking_brilliance escape that, while @mandyjw remains?  What's the difference? Who is tied down here? surely not absolute self, so who? @seeking_brilliance will die one day anyway, so what's it to him if he is reborn or not? He won't remember anyway.  Or is this story about reincarnation just a fun theory to give us something to do?

 

haha I'm just being obstinate this morning.  It'll pass. 

I have those dreams too, I am convinced they are lives I'm having in alternate timelines, parallel universes, past, future and whatnot. It is the same Self, living many different lives across, time, space, universes and dimensions, but they are all integrated and observed by the higher Self, simultaneously. Their linear temporal nature is illusory, in reality there is no before or after.

 

All of us are tied into the material world, our lives are experienced by our higher selves, but we forget that once we get incarnated. You could say that this is a feature of Reality VR (TM), for full immersion. When we wake up from this life, it will seem like a dream and a distant memory, much like your early childhood seems now. It was still you, but you are not the same person that you once were. You are in a different state of being and on another level of consciousness. This is how previous lives will also seem to you when you awake from the material delusion and realise your true nature.

[Dumuzzi]

16 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Dumuzzi The same "privilege" of heaven applies no matter what the religion, the idea that there is a cycle to break free of and one who can break free at all creates a game of winners and losers. Just because this is the thing that ruined Christianity for me says nothing about Christianity, it says something about the model of religion itself. The same exact problem exists in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Actualized.org. 

If God himself was ever whole and perfect and decided to disperse into this what we often call mess and chaos, and you are God, and were never separate but always whole and always that... how could you ever get to state of realization where you would not make the same choice again to disperse into illusory form? Illusory form, the world just is what it is this moment is just occurs on its own, it just is. 

The question is why pursue enlightenment, why does this story line play out of a singular being breaking the illusion then continuing their life in the illusion enjoying the coming and going of forms, enjoying the illusion of other beings who are completely caught in the illusion. Out of compassion one tries to teach others to follow suit, but there is no one to follow, there is nothing to achieve and there are no others to teach. Yet to story of teachers and insights and the notion of a spiritual path is probably the most tantalizing entertaining thing you could do with your life. But it is delusion? 

Should we all just admit, we're just here to have a good time? 

I never could understand why almost all the videos on America's Funniest Home videos were people getting hurt. Why is it funny to see someone trip and fall or have some bizarre accident and get hurt? Could my compassion and love strictly my ego? Is the will of God that I am able to laugh when someone suffers? Does God enjoy everything that's happening? 

I don't want that. I want to be sad for the movie characters. I want to be happy for them. I want to live in illusion and delusion, even after I've seen through it to the perfection of love, even after I've awakened and lived in a state of bliss and seeing through eyes of perfection, I came back to this because I chose it. I like it better. I prefer it. 

The Illusory nature of existence lies in separation. In truth, we are a continuum of consciousness, all intimately connected to each other. We choose to exist separately at this juncture in time, space and dimensions, yet we could just as easily be one with one another. You and I made a decision at some distant point in time and space to separate from each other. That was painful, but we wanted to experience individual consciousness as separate beings. When we'd had our fill of individuality we will become One again. That is essentially what Love is, the realisation that we belong together and aren't actually separate entities at all. This works for two individuals in romantic love, friendships, family ties or collectively as well.

[mandyjw]

@Dumuzzi But I want heaven on earth, NOW goddamn it!

No, that's not right. I don't want paradise on earth, I want to lose myself working towards paradise on earth knowing all the while that it's already here within. 

[Nahm]

15 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I want to lose myself working towards paradise on earth knowing all the while that it's already here within. 

This  is precisely what that looks like. 

[Dumuzzi]

15 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Dumuzzi But I want heaven on earth, NOW goddamn it!

No, that's not right. I don't want paradise on earth, I want to lose myself working towards paradise on earth knowing all the while that it's already here within. 

That is actually possible, in fact, it is the goal of self-realization.

Heaven is actually the space just above the top of the head, the seventh Chakra. It starts from the crown and extends into infinity. The expression "I'm in Seventh Heaven" is an allusion to that. The bliss that floods your entire being upon reaching this state of mind is indescribable, but has often been compared to a thousand orgasms

I can confirm that it is an apt description.

[Angelite]

As far as I know, those whom the Words does not reached them , they'll be fine. Before Jesus (peace be upon him), there are other prophets. There is not a single People to whom Allah does not sent His messengers. 

From Adam to Muhammad (peace be upon them).

Earth is temporal. It's not our real Home. It will feel like a day or less when you wake up from the life of this world. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Angelite

[mandyjw]

40 minutes ago, Nahm said:

This  is precisely what that looks like. 

 Sigh. 

[Nahm]

@mandyjw ☺️

Thought, sensation, perception - all comes, and all goes. You do not come & go, you are Truth, and you are everywhere. Every actor, script & scene, every singer, poet & philosopher, all whisper our true unspeakable name. 

...and so castles made of sand, melt into the sea, eventually.

...it goes like this; the fourth, the fifth, the minor fall and the major lift - the baffled queen composing...Hallelujah.

...the only thing I’ll ever ask of you - you gotta promise not to stop when I say when. 

Minor chords are haunting, troubling, essence of tension, problems, troubles, everything-is-not-ok-ness. Major chords are resounding, resolution, rejoicing, everything-is-ok-ness. Fourths & fifths add sophistication, complexity, suspense, drama, intrigue, uniqueness, concern. All chords are sound, all sound is vibration, and vibration is you. The deliciousness of the fourths & fifths, the falls and the lifts, the gift that one can be baffled - that is an incomprehensible miracle. You knew that “coming into this”. Not telling you anything you don’t already know. Just reminding you that you promised not to stop, no matter what. How long though? Ever long.

[erik8lrl]

Not only you are already enlightened, everybody is. Right now is heaven on earth. Just live, just love, just be. It is all love.

[mandyjw]

@Nahm You say I took the name in vain
I don't even know the name
But if I did, well really, what's it to you?
There's a blaze of light in every word
It doesn't matter which you heard
The holy or the broken hallelujah

I was returning from a run today, and I saw my neighbor's trash and her bending over it putting it out. All within the same time frame as seeing this, I thought, ugh I really don't want to interact with her right now and felt my heart contract. I noticed what happened, how the thought and sensation arose with the seeing and when I looked again, she had never really been there at all, all that was there was just a trashcan. 

[Nahm]

@mandyjw Ha! That’s awesome. And beautiful.