Is enlightenment exclusive?

[LastThursday]

5 hours ago, mandyjw said:

The only way I can solve this problem is by believing that consciousness is itself beyond needing to be "seen" or recognized by the illusory "owner" of the consciousness. 

I would say that's exactly right. Consciousness doesn't need an owner or observer - but it does have an inherent nature: consciousness is aware of itself. In that way it is able to manifest an ego. But strip away the illusory observer and you have Enlightenment. But whether you have stripped away the observer or not, consciousness is still aware of itself.

[abrakamowse]

@mandyjw Did you take a look at the Christian Mystics what they say about that? I think the Orthodox Church has a different take on all the teachings that in "our Christianity" (Catholics and Evangelics) have a different interpretation. Like the Atonement Doctrine and Heaven and Hell, Salvation, etc. (I found some Catholic Mystics whose ideas are closer to the Orthodox Church rather than the Catholic Church, like John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, etc...)

I consider myself Christian too, but If I tell a preacher or a priest what I think about what Jesus taught, they will say that I am heretic and probably they will stone me to death. Lol...

In my experience Hell is when you die without seeing the truth. I had an experience of dying (but I didn't know anything about the dead of the ego) and I was so scared, that it was hell to me. Imagine if I really died (the body really died) and I was in that state I suppose that this could be hell, and time is really subjective so maybe it can be said that it is an eternal hell. From our POV. From God POV not... who knows.

I am not saying that what I am right about that, but is what my experience told me. Maybe my perspective will change after more experiences into ego death.

Edited November 19, 2019 by abrakamowse

[mandyjw]

@abrakamowse I have looked into gnostic texts and teachings, there's some really cool stuff there. I'm open to answers wherever the come from, In a way I don't want to identify as a Christian just like I don't want to identify as anything unless it's appropriate in the moment. I just noticed that the problem of exclusivity and my being bothered with it started with the religion I was raised into and still persists now even going beyond/through that religion. 

If we create our reality and we believe in hell then we can experience it. But if we don't give it thought or belief how could we? What was your experience if you don't mind sharing more? 

[ActualizedDavid]

@mandyjw I noticed that we think to much.

I noticed that when i start interpreting reality i have a tendency to contract and be attached.

But then after 1-2 weeks of attachement of that particular subject i just let it go, even if it helpet me.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[mandyjw]

@ActualizedDavid I do.

I'm not sure though, that my problem might be that I never interpreted much at all, just kinda enjoyed the ride... or didn't.  

Sometimes interpretation is contracting and sometimes it's expansive. 

[Surfingthewave]

13 hours ago, mandyjw said:

And yet all of that blew up in my face, and I'm very aware that there are at least in this illusory story of awakening

You seem to be facing an inner conflict with where all this sits with your beliefs? 

You have some fabulous insights and yet you are aware of the contradictions. 

This is a good place to be. Just enter awareness from here. 

[Eu Sint]

@mandyjw said:  

“I still really really want enlightenment to be available to anyone and everyone. “

 

Enlightenment is for everyone, but there is no one to be enlightened. Just You are.

Christians and Muslims ,Heaven and Hell, Yin and Yang,you and others etc they are just beliefs.When there is no identification and no beliefs to cling to, only You are The True One.Do not attach to any beliefs ,let them go , this is real freedom.You are Pure Bliss, Here and Now.❤️

[abrakamowse]

@mandyjw 

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In a way I don't want to identify as a Christian just like I don't want to identify as anything

Yes, that is true. In reality we are not Christian and we are really nothing and everything. Sometimes I think about what Buddha said that if you meet the Buddha you have to kill the Buddha. I don't know if I can Kill Jesus really hehehe... because is always in the back on my mind. I think the indoctrination we get from church is crazy and in that sense is hard sometimes to not get attached to certain beliefs and dogmas.

Quote

 

If we create our reality and we believe in hell then we can experience it. But if we don't give it thought or belief how could we? What was your experience if you don't mind sharing more? 

 

 

 

Yes, no problem. I will try to make it short, because I don’t want to hijack your thread. I will post in my diary a more detailed version of this experience, I will let you know if you want to read it. It was nuts hehehehe…

 

But basically I asked in prayer to be “saved”. And I did it so intensely that something happened. I was not so sure about my beliefs so I wanted to know for once and all if I really was wrong or If there was any purpose to life, if Jesus was “the only way”, if Buddhism was wrong, etc. So, I read that Jesus said “Ask and it shall be given”, so I asked so much that one day it was given.

I asked for salvation, I wasn’t sure if Salvation and Enlightenment was the same, so I did what it was safer for my beliefs at that moment, I asked for salvation, to be baptized with the holy spirit. And something happened, God listened to me hehehe...

I was going to work and during my commute, I had an epiphany or as Jed Mc Kenna says I had T/R (“Truth Realization”). But it was partial. In the sense that I didn’t have any background about true spirituality, so I couldn’t understand what had happened. But anyway it was marvelous. And it was really Truth realization, the only problem is I didn’t know it at that moment.

The first thing I had first of all Love for everyone that it was on the train. A super selfless love. And then I had a vision (or a shift in perception in reality) where I saw that everything is alive, and God was in everything. I saw energy all around me and I felt that all was connected. There was energy everywhere and it was running from one person to another, like if all of us were connected and one thing. I also felt like I was really alive, that before I was dead and now I was seeing really what is to be alive. But I still was in the old paradigm, that I was my thoughts, that I was separated from God, etc. In my arms I could see that energy running inside me, like if there was very brilliant water running through my veins. That made me remember what Jesus said that “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

So one day I began to suffer the ego backslash. Now I know what it is, but at this moment I didn’t have any idea. And even today I was thinking about it and in reality the ego backslash was created by me, because it was what it was. IMO it was an awakening that my ego interpreted as something bad, but I will explain that in a moment.

I lost control of my ego, the ego acted any thought that appeared or arose in me. And I didn’t know what it was me, what it was thought. So, I did funny things, I said a lot of truth but mixed with crazy stuff, like exaggerating, like I love you (but in a way that it seemed devilish). It was a psychotic episode. I went to the hospital and I ended up staying there like one week trying to go back to normal.

I couldn’t think well, my memory was super bad. I forgot everything. And I had terrible nightmares. 

The nightmares where me going to die (hehehehe). What happened was that I become conscious of being in nothing, in a void. It was completely black, like in a blackout and I was conscious but I didn’t know what I was, I didn’t have any identity. And that consciousness began to fall into that black hole, at that moment I was consciousness but the ego was still there, and I was still identified with the ego.

Now I know because of all the experience of ego death that I read, I know what it was what happened. But when it happened I remember telling my wife that it was the worst nightmare that I ever had.

Now I know it was a blessing in reality!!! I was going to be awakened but I chickened out due to lack of knowledge!

What I was trying to tell you Mandy is that you are right, what one person sees as bliss or tranquility other like me can see it as the devil, as hell. 

So I believe that we create hell, but in my opinion you with the knowledge that you have now, you are safe, you will never be in that “hell” hehehe… because you know is you who creates it so your mind will go to another place. That’s what I think.

 

I watch with my wife a TV serie called Criminal Minds, and they write from time to time some quotes from famous people and I remember that they put in one of the episodes a quote that I think it has to do with all these, it said this:

“Hell is truth seen too late.”

― Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan

Edited November 21, 2019 by abrakamowse

[mandyjw]

@abrakamowseBeautifully described, thank you. It's amazing to hear about other people's awakening experiences, I've found that they are incredibly unique to the person. 

The saving grace to the Hobbes quote is that there is no time. 

[abrakamowse]

5 hours ago, mandyjw said:

It's amazing to hear about other people's awakening experiences, I've found that they are incredibly unique to the person. 

Very true. 

 

5 hours ago, mandyjw said:

The saving grace to the Hobbes quote is that there is no time. 

That's true too... but from the ego POV it helped me understand that Salvation is also understanding. If you die without searching your true nature, that's hell.

 

Two different reactions people have when they "see" Truth

Edited November 22, 2019 by abrakamowse

[WelcometoReality]

On 2019-11-19 at 1:21 PM, mandyjw said:

Am I playing the role of the observer? When I watch a movie, even though only observing a story I still feel pain and joy of the characters to such a high degree that I don't like to watch movies at all.  When I have a dream in which I don't have a character to play, I'm still emotionally affected by what happens. 

Is this as it should be? 

Feeling emotions is completely normal. As you awaken you tend to get more and more sensitive to feeling. I'd say that what you should watch out for is a feeling of numbness. That might be a sign of some spiritual bypassing or trap.