Why Women Aren't Attracted to Nice Guys

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Fede83

This issue goes much deeper and it has to do with codependency. One of its most common patterns of behaviour is pleasing others from a place of neediness.

Someone who has that, sees his behaviour as "nice", and when he sees someone who doesn't do the same he calls him " a rude and arrogant jerk", but all that is a borderline judgement from a limited selfish perspective, which stems from low self esteem - this means that his perception is twisted by his illness.

Also, it all depends on where the niceness is coming from, if it's not from manipulation, but an honest giving of kindness with no strings attached, then we are getting somewhere. A well rounded individual knows how to blend all these principles in a tactful manner, and so he may be both kind and attractive.

You can also throw in stereotypical thinking, generalizing and level of development. It's obvious that people on different levels of development appreciate, and are attracted to different kinds of behaviours. For example, unhealthy stage red is attracted to displays of power.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Anton Rogachevski

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, Dumuzzi said:

The point for the pickup community seems to be, that they envy psychopaths, or as they call them, Alphas. Such men see women as prey and are in effect predators, on the hunt. They seem to want to be able to completely detach from their emotions and their empathy, so that they can relate to women as objects to be used for sexual gratification, rather than as actual human beings with feelings and wants of their own.

The thing is though, you can't "unhave" empathy and normal human emotion, you're either born with it, or if you're a psychopath, you are incapable of it from birth. Thankfully, only about 4 percent of the human population is psychopathic, most of them men, but it is enough to cause plenty of mayhem. I think nice guy syndrome at its root is about the envy normal men feel towards psychopaths who are often a lot more successful at certain things than they are. Thing is though, psychopaths may be able to "get" women easily, but are unable to form normal human relationships and enjoy their conquests on an emotional level.

I think this can be very similar to a sort of jealousy women feel towards a archetype of the seductress also sometimes to the Succubus who is great at sexually attracting a man to herself  like Jezebel but uses him eventually for her goals because she is the goldigger  or the psychopath who uses her sexual charisma to get his wealth and enjoy fortune and status. 

It's to see how we all get enmeshed into this whole game of sexuality and dominance and survival and easily forget the value of truth and higher goals and purpose. 

It's about animalism trumping on spiritualism. 

But there are hopefully ways to deal with this cognitive dilemma. 

One is to be liberated from this primal game and focus on true purpose and not get overwhelmed by games people play. 

In the end karma is a very strong word and what starts with good intentions ends with good outcomes. 

Something that is really not rooted in real values is materialism and society loves to project it like success or power. 

This is again an illusion that disempowers us. 

To be true to yourself and not get carried away by materialism and illusions is a great indicator of strength of character. 

The rewards of the earth are temporary. The rewards of great intentions are ever lasting. 

In the end what is real stays real. Like you can always have a fake diamond. But nothing overcomes the shine of a real diamond. It's pure beauty free from corruption. 

[Nickyy]

1 minute ago, Etherial Cat said:

Oh! Happy to know this behavioral pattern has a name. 

I agree with you Nickyy.

I somewhat feel sorry for those guys in the PUA community who can't find their way out of those unbalanced mental scheme. Quite often, their imbalance leaning towards the masculine energy is reinforced by the fact that they will only consume stuff they see as masculine content, and justify their behavior with "science", and "rationality".

Unfortunately, since the pull of our mainstream society is Orange, it leads them in a difficult loop to escape. They can get trapped in this sad patterns for decades of their whole life.

I wish there was more healthy role model for them. It's hard to find the escape of this maze on your own.

I met a guy (not directly, just indirectly) around 10 years ago on my first forum at ken Wilbers integral life website. The forum is shut now, but I think we can still access the forum archives and read the stuff on there. His name was Charles Bowling, a man in his 70's, who had been into personal development all of his life. There was something about him that was beyond anything I've experienced before and since.

The closest word I can fathom is presence. But not just presence of being here in the now, but actually grounded in every single interaction he had on the forum. This manifested itself in an ability to understand your question accurately and be able to give you an answer that was suitable for your own level of understanding. He would answer every question put to him. He wouldn't dodge questions and he wouldn't tell lies, he only spoke about his direct experience. He wasn't green, he didn't buy into flatland equality, he had access to every stage of development and was not fixated at any particular stage 

When he replied to you you felt that he had taken enough time to absorb your perspective and then he would offer you something that he knew first hand would be of value. You could tell that he was done working on himself and that he had absolutely no agenda but to offer his experience and help you. His moment by moment purpose was aligned with his larger life purpose. You could feel his congruency coming across the text. It had the effect of my feminine feeling safe, nourished, understood, at home because he himself was at home. 

But not only did I feel like everything was ok with the world when I read his texts, I also felt the pull of challenge. He appealed to my masculine side like a father figure. Always leading me to take responsibility into my own hands. 

Time seemed to vanish when I read his posts. 

He had done the work integrating beige with body work and grounding into his body completely, and integrating purple using Jung's archetypes. He understood the crucial role of mentoring younger people (healthy blue) and the benefits and limits of orange with the sensitivity and spiritual reawakening of green. 

There are no role models like that in society. Many people try, but I don't think they truly understand what it means to integrate the spiral and truly live as a whole person. 

He definately was at being needs stage as he clearly only needed to contribute to others. 

A real master. 

Once you have someone like that in your life, even for a short time, it can really help you sort the fakes from the real. Unfortunately there are hardly any people at yellow and above, so yeah orange and it's views are the only thing guys have to go on.  

[Preety_India]

19 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Fede83

This issue goes much deeper and it has to do with codependency. One of its most common patterns of behaviour is pleasing others from a place of neediness.

Someone who has that, sees his behaviour as "nice", and when he sees someone who doesn't do the same he calls him " a rude and arrogant jerk", but all that is a borderline judgement from a limited selfish perspective, which stems from low self esteem - this means that his perception is twisted by his illness.

Also, it all depends on where the niceness is coming from, if it's not from manipulation, but an honest giving of kindness with no strings attached, then we are getting somewhere. A well rounded individual knows how to blend all these principles in a tactful manner, and so he may be both kind and attractive.

I tried to make the same point earlier. That a nice guy is still attractive if his value structure is genuine and not coming from a place of manipulation just to win the woman.. 

A man can be nice and attractive at the same time to a real woman who values his kindness and is not too carried away or blinded by bad boy social image but believes in her own beliefs and does not submit to peer pressure. 

She will value him and find him attractive because he knows he has more to offer spiritually and emotionally to her than some alpha bad boy who is only good in bed. 

 

Deep down a lot has to do with what the other person's value structure is and therefore the nice guy is at no fault. 

He is better off with a potential partner who is going to value and respect him rather than blame himself for being rejected by a person(woman) whose value structure is not congruent with his. 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Preety_India

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Preety_India

I guess we can boil it all down to Borderline thinking and exaggeration. Thinking you are either nice or a jerk, and going from one extreme to other. This kind of radicality is just a result of a low level of development, and that's where most people are, so that's why we get all the stereotypes. (All women yada yada, All men yada yada.) My personal rule of thumb is not to judge the whole by the majority. To personally embody this means to understand that you always represent all your kind, and to act accordingly.

[Preety_India]

Just now, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Preety_India

I guess we can boil it all down to Borderline thinking and exaggeration. Thinking you are either nice or a jerk, and going from one extreme to other. This kind of radicality is just a result of a low level of development, and that's where most people are, so that's why we get all the stereotypes. (All women yada yada, All men yada yada.) My personal rule of thumb is not to judge the whole by the majority. To personally embody this means to understand that you always represent all your kind, and to act accordingly.

Wholeheartedly agree. The behavior of extrapolating  an individual's mentality and use it to color the entire gender is very similar to stereotyping and comes from a low consciousness state. 

Therefore the behavior of the opposite person/partner is more important than what they teach in a pua community. Because their thinking patterns will never apply to a real time situation because every situation is like a separate case and so a man will have to be pretty much impromptu in his approach and understand her psyche to see how he can align himself to her and get along with her. Following a pattern based thinking will only lead to borderline behavior and sabotaging a potentially good blossoming relationship. 

 

[Nickyy]

3 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Therefore the behavior of the opposite person/partner is more important than what they teach in a pua community. Because their thinking patterns will never apply to a real time situation because every situation is like a separate case and so a man will have to be pretty much impromptu in his approach and understand her psyche to see how he can align himself to her and get along with her. Following a pattern based thinking will only lead to borderline behavior and sabotaging a potentially good blossoming relationship. 

 

?

Hence why it's better to drop all dating coaches and just do serious self development work. Emotional healing, meditation, that kind of thing. Be your own authority rather than absorb other person's beliefs, especially people who have an agenda, are incomplete , are possibly trying on a coaching role to make money. 

We can see now the pitfalls of this kind of reductionist approach 

[Dumuzzi]

27 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I think this can be very similar to a sort of jealousy women feel towards a archetype of the seductress also sometimes to the Succubus who is great at sexually attracting a man to herself  like Jezebel but uses him eventually for her goals because she is the goldigger  or the psychopath who uses her sexual charisma to get his wealth and enjoy fortune and status. 

It's to see how we all get enmeshed into this whole game of sexuality and dominance and survival and easily forget the value of truth and higher goals and purpose. 

It's about animalism trumping on spiritualism. 

But there are hopefully ways to deal with this cognitive dilemma. 

One is to be liberated from this primal game and focus on true purpose and not get overwhelmed by games people play. 

In the end karma is a very strong word and what starts with good intentions ends with good outcomes. 

Something that is really not rooted in real values is materialism and society loves to project it like success or power. 

This is again an illusion that disempowers us. 

To be true to yourself and not get carried away by materialism and illusions is a great indicator of strength of character. 

The rewards of the earth are temporary. The rewards of great intentions are ever lasting. 

In the end what is real stays real. Like you can always have a fake diamond. But nothing overcomes the shine of a real diamond. It's pure beauty free from corruption. 

Yes, two sides of the same coin. Amen to that, sister

I am actually quite disturbed by the rampant materialism and apparent sexual frustration exhibited by many on this forum. Maybe it is because this place attracts a younger demographic, but it seems to me that in order to progress spiritually, you have to overcome your obsession with both, so that you may concentrate on achieving a higher purpose.

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, Dumuzzi said:

Yes, two sides of the same coin. Amen to that, sister

I am actually quite disturbed by the rampant materialism and apparent sexual frustration exhibited by many on this forum. Maybe it is because this place attracts a younger demographic, but it seems to me that in order to progress spiritually, you have to overcome your obsession with both, so that you may concentrate on achieving a higher purpose.

It's difficult to make that happen. I'm myself a youngster struggling with that. But going through many toxic relationships I had the opportunity to understand toxic patterns in my partners as well as myself. 

Like they say experience is the greatest teacher of all. 

 

[Dumuzzi]

2 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

It's difficult to make that happen. I'm myself a youngster struggling with that. But going through many toxic relationships I had the opportunity to understand toxic patterns in my partners as well as myself. 

Like they say experience is the greatest teacher of all. 

 

To each their own.

Personally, I no longer partake. I have effectively been living the life of a Sannyasin, for the past 7 years. It isn't necessarily the life path I would have chosen for myself, but this the path that the Goddess put me on, therefore I follow it. If she should ever deem it necessary that I should marry and start a family, I will follow that path. 

[Preety_India]

5 minutes ago, Dumuzzi said:

To each their own.

Personally, I no longer partake. I have effectively been living the life of a Sannyasin, for the past 7 years. It isn't necessarily the life path I would have chosen for myself, but this the path that the Goddess put me on, therefore I follow it. If she should ever deem it necessary that I should marry and start a family, I will follow that path. 

Your path which is beneficial to you is your best path. Whatever you choose that fits your purpose is the right thing to do. Trust your inner intuition. 

You can always change it when it no longer fits if you outgrow it. 

Best wishes on your spiritual journey  take care. 

 

 

[Dumuzzi]

9 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Your path which is beneficial to you is your best path. Whatever you choose that fits your purpose is the right thing to do. Trust your inner intuition. 

You can always change it when it no longer fits if you outgrow it. 

Best wishes on your spiritual journey  take care. 

 

 

Thank you, same to you.

[Nickyy]

2 hours ago, Angelite said:

In reality, there is only Truth.

Okay I'm gonna say this from a higher conscious plane of looking at thing. 

In the end, it is love. 

Anything that is not based on love will not last forever. Love can't be faked. 

I believe in natural attraction. 

These are all reasons. You don't need reason for love. True love won't fade. 

But judging from this forum, people aren't looking for love, but to get their needs met. 

Love is not a need. Love is simply love

Not knocking your views, I personally have no first hand experience of what you're saying, but that doesn't mean I can knock it. It's valid for the stage you're at. 

But for me I'd like to plant a seed to set the wheels in motion for a new paradigm for guys to adopt on the forum. Actualized.org is probably the only place now where people can get real information on how to grow in different lines of development. I believe what I'm proposing is a healthier way of looking at dating and male female attraction, at least healthier than what's out there at the moment in the orange centred dating coaching industries, the pickup macho culture and the MGTOW stuff.

The stuff I'm suggesting here doesn't just address dating and meeting women, it spills into long term relationships, work relationships, every area of life. It's all connected. To live a pick up life and be a burger flipper is living a lie. To have your whole life aligned with your purpose and living every moment as an expression of that is in my opinion is the essence of everything leo is teaching. Attraction is just a byproduct of that kind of conscious lifestyle.

So for me it's important to take one step at a time and try not to confuse people. 

I consider myself at least able to grasp some of these high personal development concepts, and that has taken me time to do that. Not everyone can grasp the things you're saying. We need to present the reality of male and female attraction in ways many people can understand. 

I think moving from distorted orange ideas about male female dynamics into healthier 2 me tier is a step in the right direction. 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Nickyy

[Nickyy]

1 hour ago, Etherial Cat said:

Oh! Happy to know this behavioral pattern has a name. 

I agree with you Nickyy.

I somewhat feel sorry for those guys in the PUA community who can't find their way out of those unbalanced mental scheme. Quite often, their imbalance leaning towards the masculine energy is reinforced by the fact that they will only consume stuff they see as masculine content, and justify their behavior with "science", and "rationality".

Unfortunately, since the pull of our mainstream society is Orange, it leads them in a difficult loop to escape. They can get trapped in this sad patterns for decades of their whole life.

I wish there was more healthy role model for them. It's hard to find the escape of this maze on your own.

Are you refering to science and rationality in respect to the evolutionary biology / Darwinism perspective that the pua use?

I don't even think they really understand evolutionary biology anyway, and merely cherry pick specific ideas from it to suit their biases.

It's not even orange in the sense that it is peer reviewed knowledge.

[Nickyy]

45 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Beautiful story.

I've always thought that love presupposes for a being to dive in someone else's perspective without any judgement and try from there to nurture that other person so it can grow further.

That man did exactly that.

Yeah, but that takes a while to get there. The reason I wrote about him is because that's what the end result would be of having done a lot of work on oneself.

I'm sure charles went through his fair share of polemics, arguments in his time. Self development is messy. But the point I'm making is that the pua or MGTOW ideal is not even close to what self development is all about

[whoareyou]

I am surprised that one of you get the simple truth here:

The so called "nice" guys, are not actually nice. They engage in a "nice" behavior out of neediness - they do it as a way to manipulate them into getting what they want from women. In other words, they are not being congruent, grounded, or real. Women see right through it and it turns them off. The reason why they are attracted to so called "bad boys" is not because they are "bad", but because they have the qualities that they desire (congruent, authentic, grounded, etc).

There is no need to be "nice", period. This does not mean that you have to be an asshole, or a mean person.

[Key Elements]

Once you get into a relationship, it's a test of your nature, your inner balance. That's the best I could describe it. Are you both able to adjust in a balanced kind of way? Both have to be willing to adjust. There was a friend of mine I knew since high school. She told me her mom left her dad. I was wondering, "why?" They were married for 30+ years with three children. But then, I found out that the mom had a passive aggressive type of personality. Nothing pleases her in the family. She was always complaining no matter what anyone did, even though she had smart kids and a husband who is soft spoken and helped out around the house. He literally raised the kids all by himself and did all the housework, whatever he can. They were both university professors of the same university. He was the president, and she was the dean.

To me, I think she allowed her ego to get the best of her. She never addressed her personality. She had everything going for her. She made all the major decisions. She made no attempts to stop herself from being passive aggressive. There's a saying, "don't make a moutain out of a molehill." In this case, the woman was out of balance. He chose to be with someone who eventually got out of balance.

[Nickyy]

3 hours ago, Key Elements said:

Once you get into a relationship, it's a test of your nature, your inner balance. That's the best I could describe it. Are you both able to adjust in a balanced kind of way? Both have to be willing to adjust. There was a friend of mine I knew since high school. She told me her mom left her dad. I was wondering, "why?" They were married for 30+ years with three children. But then, I found out that the mom had a passive aggressive type of personality. Nothing pleases her in the family. She was always complaining no matter what anyone did, even though she had smart kids and a husband who is soft spoken and helped out around the house. He literally raised the kids all by himself and did all the housework, whatever he can. They were both university professors of the same university. He was the president, and she was the dean.

To me, I think she allowed her ego to get the best of her. She never addressed her personality. She had everything going for her. She made all the major decisions. She made no attempts to stop herself from being passive aggressive. There's a saying, "don't make a moutain out of a molehill." In this case, the woman was out of balance. He chose to be with someone who eventually got out of balance.

Thanks for sharing that here. I appreciate that. 

Allow me to offer a perspective . A second teir guy would step upto that, not afraid to use his energies to address why the woman he's in a relationship with is unhappy. 

A guy at maybe green would step aside, let her be in her mood without rocking the boat. Leave her alone to sort it out herself.  Green has boundaries, but a 2nd tier guy crosses those boundaries from a place of love and not afraid to maybe use more assertive energies, not to get his partner to quit her complaining for his sake, but to pop her out of her negative bubble for her own sake, thus transforming her mood in ways that she couldn't have done herself. Which is sexually polarizing for them both. 

Maybe your friend's mum was unhappy because she wasn't really loved in the way she wanted to be and this caused her to complain in passive aggressive ways? The situation to me sounds matbe like sexual roles were reversed and that she was burning her masculine energy while he stood by and let her burn herself out.

Who really knows what was going on in that situation? But the situation you presented does provide material to allow me to demonstrate a scenario in which a guy at a being stage would want to offer unconditional support to his partner and how to do it in an authentic masculine way asking for nothing in return. 

He grows in his masculine essence by her apparent "shit test", and she grows in her feminine essence by being opened up by masculine presence . 

Sexual polarity without the fixed identification of roles . 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Nickyy

[Key Elements]

@Nickyy you're right. The man could have done something out of love to make things balanced. I'm thinking he already did, but it didn't really work. Their eldest child also moved out without informing them. I wonder what's really going on. Yes, we don't really know what's going on.

[JustThinkingAloud]

7 hours ago, Nickyy said:

All women, whether they are emotionally spiritually developed or not, dislike nice guy syndrome. 

When women say they like good guys and nice guys they don't exactly mean that. What they mean when they say "nice guy" is someone who is not neurotic or has fixations, who is present in his physical body, awareness rooted in the lower half of his body, awareness away from the mind and able to pick up on very subtle changes in the environment and still stay present and not get knocked off that.

This is the biggest problem I have with men. Somehow, they assume they know what is in our heads and don't listen what we actually say. They think they know us better than we know ourselves. We all are human beings, our brains work the same, we didn't come from a different planet and we don't need anyone to tell us what we think, we know what we think.