Confusion over spiral dynamics

[electroBeam]

Im trying to use spiral dynamics as a way to expose myself to my hidden karmic patterns. For example I think a certain way, look at SD and then see how that way of thinking fits in with SD and explore ways that that karmic pattern can be more accurately observed.

 

I cant seem to pinpoint myself on the scale. I dont resonate with any of the colours.

 

Could it be that Im just not that focused on growing up, and am more focused on waking up?

What questionaare or test can you do to accurately gauge the stage you most resonate with?

I value experiencing the relative nature of Maya, looking at the universe from different perspectives, studying/observing meditatively the structure of my karmic patterns, studying/observing meditatively different stages of SD playing out in real life, How different perspectives, fit in, relate and cohensively integrate together to form highly intelligent patterns in consciousness. 

The list above does not really fit in SD and may be better suited for a waking up model instead?

[Leo Gura]

@electroBeam What have you done to study the model?

Anything outside my videos?

That's probably the problem here.

[MNR Mackey]

Ive found that where I peg myself on the spiral tends to ebb and flow based on my mood. If Im having a real bad day and struggling to be conscious, I can see myself sliding down into Blue territory, mostly characterized by harsh moralization. When Im feeling very positive and energetic, Im mostly in Green and I can definitely identify with a lot of Yellow values. So I can't personally place myself in 1 stage entirely, I can range between Blue and Yellow. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by MNR Mackey

[Nickyy]

Green and yellow are completely incompatible. Yellow is so far ahead of green it's mind boggling.

I would say that if you resonate with yellow but think you got some green in you then uproot that green (any ideas that demonise hierarchy in any way shape or form- positive or negative, it's all the same) and disidentify with it. 

Green values hiding in among yellow is going to hold you back. 

As soon as you get rid of green you start integrating all of the 1st tier colours so much more effectively because the spiral is a hierarchy, and green thwarts any integration. Green is about trying to get rid of all of the 1st tier below it and rule and dominate and it makes people extremely unhappy and dysfunctional in the end. 

[Leo Gura]

@Nickyy Your view of Green is messed up. You are describing unhealthy Green, not Green proper. And Yellow must build on a foundation of Green. Each stage builds on the previous ones.

[Nickyy]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@Nickyy Your view of Green is messed up. You are describing unhealthy Green, not Green proper. And Yellow must build on a foundation of Green. Each stage builds on the previous ones.

Yes each stage builds on the previous ones. But that doesn't mean that you embrace green all of the time. You have to see its limitations in your thinkin and how it holds you back. Moving into yellow requires a green allergy of sorts. I've observed this in myself and others. 

You're probably thinking that I haven't been to green and don't understand it. But I'm living in a green culture and I can see how it doesn't work. Yeah you got to go these, but if you don't evolve then you stagnate. 

Witness how green is holding back progress on both the personal and social levels.

 

[Nickyy]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Nickyy Your view of Green is messed up. You are describing unhealthy Green, not Green proper. And Yellow must build on a foundation of Green. Each stage builds on the previous ones.

Unhealthy green and green are the same thing. Green becomes unhealthy when it doesn't evolve. That's what all of the books say. You're looking at the manifestations of green when you differentiate unhealthy green and healthy green, but green is one idea, the deconstruction of hierarchy which has a healthy manifestation and a counter productive manifestation. It's good at the beginning and causes misery at the end. 

 

[Nickyy]

@Leo Gura Also notice Leo the context in which I say a green allergy is healthy.

IF you resonate with yellow but see that you got green in you, THEN it's ok to transcend green so that it facilitates integration of tier one .

[Adam M]

@Nickyy Of course you are correct in the sense that it is imperative for a Yellow person to see the limits of Green and the 1st tier.

Also at the same time, the previous stages can be transcended in a healthy way through love, acceptance, and embrace.

You cannot "get rid of" Green. Only integrate it fully. If you do not wish to be overly-relativisitc like Green tends to be, then don't be. Over-relativism is taking Green too far. A healthy amount of each stage is important.

Stages are not transcended and left in the dust. They are integrated and balanced within oneself.

 

[Nickyy]

2 minutes ago, Adam M said:

@Nickyy Of course you are correct in the sense that it is imperative for a Yellow person to see the limits of Green and the 1st tier.

Also at the same time, the previous stages can be transcended in a healthy way through love, acceptance, and embrace.

You cannot "get rid of" Green. Only integrate it fully. If you do not wish to be overly-relativisitc like Green tends to be, then don't be. Over-relativism is taking Green too far. A healthy amount of each stage is important.

Stages are not transcended and left in the dust. They are integrated and balanced within oneself.

 

While I agree with this (I'd this your direct experience of integration?, because it doesnt match mine) it sounds more like a meta view, aka ideal theory of what an overall person should end up like at yellow 

The reality however is much more messy (in my personal experience).

You can get rid of green, it's just an idea what was put into the collective in order to organise thought. It's one idea, all hierarchy is bad because all ideas are relative, therefore no one idea is better than another. 

Once this idea takes hold unconsciously it creates the green structure and what follows is the manifestations of that.

By identifying this as the cause of disintegration I have found that my red, blue and orange are allowed to express themselves freely as required in the situation without any thought.

[Nickyy]

@Adam M If you read ken Wilbers book Boomeritis, you can see that this is a book written in the process of a green allergy. People like wilber and habermas wrote scathing attacks on the green meme.

Even the name of the book "Boomer - itis" gives us an ufront clue as to how wilber viewed green at the time. As a disease 

Hardly "loving".

It's critical not to be idealistic about this work.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Nickyy

[Nickyy]

1 hour ago, Adam M said:

@Nickyy Of course you are correct in the sense that it is imperative for a Yellow person to see the limits of Green and the 1st tier.

Also at the same time, the previous stages can be transcended in a healthy way through love, acceptance, and embrace.

You cannot "get rid of" Green. Only integrate it fully. If you do not wish to be overly-relativisitc like Green tends to be, then don't be. Over-relativism is taking Green too far. A healthy amount of each stage is important.

Stages are not transcended and left in the dust. They are integrated and balanced within oneself.

 

I'd like to expand on my view of what yellow is. I don't necessarily think there is a sense of not being overly relativistic. Yellow is so far removed from genuine green that it sees relativistic in a completely different way. In my experience there is just better integration without identification. I'm allowing myself and my drives to be as they are. But this time there is a different realationship to them.

For the sake of an example, drawing broad strokes in order to illustrate this feeling, stage green would not smack their kids. However yellow would snack their kid, but not from a neurotic place, but a place of love. Smacking children works if it's don't done with malice. If my kid puts it's hand in the electric socket my first reaction is to discipline my child so that it's clear that it's not right to put a finger in the electric socket and there is just enough awareness to understand never to do it again ,but not too much shock as to traumatize my child. 

Red needs a firm leader, not peer to peer discussion as green would do.  

Green would of course demonize any smacking of a child because it doesn't understand the value of blue or orange expressed in heathy ways without identification to blue or orange structures. 

The place where green has value is in making blue and orange centred people aware of how they traumatize their children by raising them unconsciously. But this doesn't apply to yellow parents. Because yellow parents are not acting neurotically or with any exclusive identification to a structure. Yellow is just expressing what was developed during passing through that structure, only without the neurotic fixation to the structure.

This is where green trips itself up. It doesn't see that there is something beyond green.  That the raising of children can be a conscious process that facilitates development in better ways where each stage is mastered as it is appropriate for the child's age. 

Green just wants to turn their child green and I've observed that this has caused a few problems with people who have grown up on very green centred homes. A lot of green adults drop out of school, succumb to drugs and alcohol. Join hippie communes, and generally carry around a paranoid distrust for the establishment and society in general. 

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Nickyy

[Adam M]

@Nickyy All valid criticisms of Green and its excesses.

Be careful not to create a Green shadow for yourself. Stages are NOT transcended through active resitance and criticism. All stages build on each other. Integrate Green without swinging your pendulum too far into the excesses (many of which you are aware of).

 

Also, all stages have neuroses.  Just because you WANT to hit your kid that doesn't mean that is an effective parenting strategy. Sometimes actions FEEL authentic but are actually rooted in a deep inauthenticity.

 

 

[Nickyy]

Just now, Adam M said:

@Nickyy All valid criticisms of Green and its excesses.

Be careful not to create a Green shadow for yourself. Stages are NOT transcended through active resitance and criticism. All stages build on each other. Integrate Green without swinging your pendulum too far into the excesses (many of which you are aware of).

 

Also, all stages have neuroses.  Just because you WANT to hit your kid that doesn't mean that is an effective parenting strategy. Sometimes actions FEEL authentic but are actually rooted in a deep inauthenticity.

 

 

Re read my comment. I've updated it so that you can understand it more fully. 

 

[Nickyy]

5 minutes ago, Adam M said:

@Nickyy All valid criticisms of Green and its excesses.

Be careful not to create a Green shadow for yourself. Stages are NOT transcended through active resitance and criticism. All stages build on each other. Integrate Green without swinging your pendulum too far into the excesses (many of which you are aware of).

 

Also, all stages have neuroses.  Just because you WANT to hit your kid that doesn't mean that is an effective parenting strategy. Sometimes actions FEEL authentic but are actually rooted in a deep inauthenticity.

 

 

Can you offer clear examples? For me your comments feel generic and vague, almost as if you have learned about stage climbing exclusively from an external source.

What is your 1st person experience and insight into all of this? That's where I think I would be able to contact you. 

At the moment what you're saying sounds like you've read it on the forum and are making some assumptions about it 

[Nickyy]

44 minutes ago, Adam M said:

@Nickyy All valid criticisms of Green and its excesses.

Be careful not to create a Green shadow for yourself. Stages are NOT transcended through active resitance and criticism. All stages build on each other. Integrate Green without swinging your pendulum too far into the excesses (many of which you are aware of).

 

Also, all stages have neuroses.  Just because you WANT to hit your kid that doesn't mean that is an effective parenting strategy. Sometimes actions FEEL authentic but are actually rooted in a deep inauthenticity.

 

 

As you can see from my comment, I have not made a green shadow. You can see clearly that I can see clearly that I am aware of the areas green does well and what it fucks us over on.

That to me is not a green shadow. I call a spade a spade, that's how yellow is. People can say what they like at yellow because they have integrated the healthy parts of 1st tier and can see the unhealthy parts of it (identification to a structure). 

I don't see in myself an unhealthy relationship to green, because I see green for what it really is, green as a temporary stage. I only think green is unhealthy when it stagnates. As I've said many times on this post already.

The context is not about smacking my kids. I used that as a way of demonstrating how green cannot tell the difference between smacking kids neurotically and smacking them because that is sometimes an effective tool to communicate with red. 

See the difference?

A yellow leader would speak to red kids or adults in ways they can hear and understand. Green has no clue because green basically doesn't trust healthy blue and orange to be effective. Green only thinks compassion means equal treatment. Which is a flatland demonization that doesn't see that compassion can appear in many forms.

Be mindful that green can pretend to be yellow and try to pull yellow back down to its overly sensitive ideology. Yellow is not sensitive at all, it's an integration of the whole of the human being, minus any identification with it. Yellow has nothing to do with equality, although it sees the benefits of equality as a step in the right direction to being. 

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Nickyy

[Adam M]

@Nickyy Your first comment gave me the sense that you were resisting/demonizing Green. Now that you have elaborated, I see that you have a good understanding of the limitations of Green. 

 

I've been spending the last year integrating and enjoying Green parties, friends, and communities. The tendency to want to flatten all natural Heirarchies is annoying.

Once I was telling a Green acquaintance about insights that I had about masculine and feminine energy. I used examples from biology, history, and metaphysics to illustrate how the male and female brain are wired with different strengths and weaknesses.

The person said to me "Nah dude you can't generalize an entire gender like that."

I said, "There are exceptions to what I am saying, but there are also general trends."

His response was, "Nah dude, that's not how it works, nice try though."

 

I was baffled.

 

In my experience your criticisms of Green are accurate.

[Loving Radiance]

1 hour ago, Adam M said:

The person said to me "Nah dude you can't generalize an entire gender like that."

I said, "There are exceptions to what I am saying, but there are also general trends."

His response was, "Nah dude, that's not how it works, nice try though."

I experienced this many times; I usually feel sadness because I am not understood and deep understanding love because I see why they think in that way.

In the end you can just move on because self-bias keeps you ignorant.