A Question About The Morality Rant Video

[abrakamowse]

@Mal  Anyway I appreciate what you are telling me. I know I need more meditation to begin to understand better. Thanks!

[Mal]

1 minute ago, abrakamowse said:

@Mal  Anyway I appreciate what you are telling me. I know I need more meditation to begin to understand better. Thanks!

You haven't got it in you. I'm sorry but there's no point you wasting your time or ours.  

[Dustin Dustbin]

22 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

I am afraid or scared that if I don't understand something logically I can go crazy, really. That makes me overthink too much

Whoever gave you that idea could have been wrong. 

[abrakamowse]

9 minutes ago, Dustin Dustbin said:

Whoever gave you that idea could have been wrong. 

Yeah, I am becoming more "not attached" to thinking lately and not identified with thinking, thanks to Leo's videos and Zazen meditation that I am doing right now.

 

I had an experience of no-identity and I was so shocked that I went to the hospital because I thought I was mad. I didn't have any guidance so that's what I thought.

Now I am realizing that it was a true experience.

 

After that I lost a lot of fear, actually I would like to repeat the experience to see if fear is still there.

Edited June 2, 2016 by abrakamowse

[ChimpBrain]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's still not radical enough!

Lol

The reality is this:

Not ONLY am I saying you have some shadow facet of Hitler inside you that you suppress. But that Hitler himself IS literally YOU!

There CANNOT be ANY separation WHATSOEVER between YOU & Hitler! Not possible! That's what enlightenment means! He is you. You are him. Where else is Hitler occurring? He's occurring in you.

The bitter truth is that everyone you've ever hated is actually you.

To understand this, you have to realize that you are not limited to your body. Like REALLY! You are not who you think you are. Whatever relationship you think you have with me, is actually you relating with you. There is no me. It's all 100% you. You're talking to yourself right now, lol So if ever you should happen to get mad at me, just realize who you're really mad at, and all will be well.

Now that's some Turquoise thinking right there! Hehehe... Good stuff.

I've watched all of your enlightenment videos several times so I'm familiar with this line of thinking. You're right, the idea that all people are some part of a greater whole or we're all one entity clearly isn't something I can logically understand but have to experience. The closest I've come was doing your guided Neti Neti video while on a mild dose of mushrooms. I had some kind of experience that was not like any other I've ever had where this truth really REALLY seemed to be the thing I'd been overlooking my entire life, and yet it seemed so obvious in the moment. The visualization I had of it at the time was that of a horses mane. Like every human was a hair on a horses mane that didn't realize they were all just part of a horse. Each hair thought he was a unique little hair with his own experience but it was all an illusion. To the horse itself or anyone observing from the outside it's obvious that the hairs are just part of a greater whole. I realize this analogy is far from perfect but it's what my psilocybin filled mind came up with in a matter of seconds when I was trying to understand the experience. A very odd feeling stayed with me for several hours after like I had just glimpsed something that would forever change my life but as the days passed it seemed less and less real.

 

I don't think I'd ever get mad at you no matter how personally I managed to take something. You've quite literally transformed my life in a matter of 6 months. I can't thank you enough for your videos, this forum, the reading list, the life purpose course, etc. I'm not ready for the whole enlightenment trip yet and I realize that, I just want to be happier, more conscious, have better relationships, be a better dad, etc., but I expect as I work my way through the stages I will come to the same conclusion that you and many others here have- that it is of the utmost importance. Thanks again!

Edited June 2, 2016 by ChimpBrain

[Dustin Dustbin]

9 minutes ago, ChimpBrain said:

 The visualization I had of it at the time was that of a horses mane. Like every human was a hair on a horses mane that didn't realize they were all just part of a horse. Each hair thought he was a unique little hair with his own experience but it was all an illusion. To the horse itself or anyone observing from the outside it's obvious that the hairs are just part of a greater whole. I realize this analogy is far from perfect but it's what my psilocybin filled mind came up with in a matter of seconds when I was trying to understand the experience. A very odd feeling stayed with me for several hours after like I had just glimpsed something that would forever change my life but as the days passed it seemed less and less real.

I've had a similar experience.

I got stuck in a garage because a huge downpour started and I wanted to wait for the rain to slack off before running out to my car.

I was standing there doing absolutely nothing but in my eye line was the windshield of a car. As I saw all the raindrops hitting the glass and forming trails of all random patterns flowing this way and that a sort of vision came to me of how total organization was forming from completely random circumstances. It got deeper and deeper as I could "see" conectivity of everything. I began to smile a huge smile  (must have looked like a maniac). Anyhow my description does not begin to describe how perfect and beautiful what I saw and understood that day and like you I tried to hold onto it but couldn't. 

Now all I have is a very weak memory of a glimpse of what I saw but it the moment it was entirely magnificent.

[Leo Gura]

It's great that you guys are having mystical experiences, but also notice that nonduality is not just some ecstatic state.

It's very ordinary.

Look outside your window right now. Notice a tree. Notice that that tree is literally you. What else would it be? Your body isn't perceiving the tree. That is patently false. Your body and the tree are both perceptions. Perceptions do not perceive other perceptions. "You" and the tree are both being perceived by an unlocated infinite empty awareness -- the true you. This awareness is NOT inside you. You are inside it! Investigate this closely. It's super-obvious.

[ChimpBrain]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's great that you guys are having mystical experiences, but also notice that nonduality is not just some ecstatic state.

It's very ordinary.

Look outside your window right now. Notice a tree. Notice that that tree is literally you. What else would it be? Your body isn't perceiving the tree. That is patently false. Your body and the tree are both perceptions. Perceptions do not perceive other perceptions. "You" and the tree are both being perceived by an unlocated infinite empty awareness -- the true you. This awareness is NOT inside you. You are inside it! Investigate this closely. It's super-obvious.

I'm familiar with this line of thinking again because of your videos, but let's be real, if it were super obvious this forum wouldn't be chock full if people trying unsuccessfully with all their might to attain this experience lol. Before your videos I was already familiar with the idea that I wasn't my thoughts, but rather the perceiver of them, but your videos took it to a whole other level to where I'm not even the perceiver, I'm a perception, and I can't be both a perception and the perceiver of my thoughts. Needless to say this concept pretty much blew my mind. Logically I can piece this puzzle together no problem once it's presented as convincingly as you have done, but actually feeling it to be true within my own experience is a different story. I'm only just recently getting into this whole idea though and I definitely haven't yet put in the work required, and also have a ton of beliefs that I know will hold me back, but anything worth having is worth working for! 

 

Off topic - have you ever made commentary about your thoughts on the possibility that simulation theory is our reality? If so, where would I find it?  

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It's great that you guys are having mystical experiences, but also notice that nonduality is not just some ecstatic state.

It's very ordinary.

Look outside your window right now. Notice a tree. Notice that that tree is literally you. What else would it be? Your body isn't perceiving the tree. That is patently false. Your body and the tree are both perceptions. Perceptions do not perceive other perceptions. "You" and the tree are both being perceived by an unlocated infinite empty awareness -- the true you. This awareness is NOT inside you. You are inside it! Investigate this closely. It's super-obvious.

It's so obvious you have to look at it 10.000 hours

[Dustin Dustbin]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Look outside your window right now. Notice a tree. Notice that that tree is literally you. What else would it be? Your body isn't perceiving the tree. That is patently false. Your body and the tree are both perceptions. Perceptions do not perceive other perceptions. "You" and the tree are both being perceived by an unlocated infinite empty awareness -- the true you. This awareness is NOT inside you. You are inside it! Investigate this closely. It's super-obvious.

I find it very difficult to escape the perception that the awareness is anywhere else but inside of me.

I've had much better luck in moving my awareness to other locations than where my physical body is located at the time but still there remains a sense that I'm looking through my eyes "over there". 

I've also had good luck in understanding (fairly forcefully) that I'm at least as much in my body as in my mind but as of yet can not escape the feeling that my perception is located in my person.

I'm not doubting you because what you are saying makes sense it just doesn't ever feel like I'm anywhere else. I've pulled energy from trees into my body but if I could understand how I was already the tree this step would be unessesary.

 

I have more to unravel......

[abrakamowse]

Maybe this extract from Suzuki's book can be of help to understand better.

"If you discriminate too much, you limit yourself. If you are too demanding or too greedy, your mind is not rich and self-sufficient. If we lose our original self-sufficient mind, we will lose all precepts. When your mind becomes demanding, when you long for something, you will end up violating your own precepts: not to tell lies, not to steal, not to kill, not to be immoral, and so forth. If you keep your original mind, the precepts will keep themselves."

Suzuki from "Beginner's Mind Zen Mind"

Edited June 3, 2016 by abrakamowse

[nbolt]

4 hours ago, abrakamowse said:

Maybe this extract from Suzuki's book can be of help to understand better.

"If you discriminate too much, you limit yourself. If you are too demanding or too greedy, your mind is not rich and self-sufficient. If we lose our original self-sufficient mind, we will lose all precepts. When your mind becomes demanding, when you long for something, you will end up violating your own precepts: not to tell lies, not to steal, not to kill, not to be immoral, and so forth. If you keep your original mind, the precepts will keep themselves."

Suzuki from "Beginner's Mind Zen Mind"

wow the exact concepts from Leo's morality video! really need to get a hold of suzuki's writings...

[abrakamowse]

@Neill  I tell you that guy is awesome. This is the second Suzuki, the one we talked about at Zendo is Daisetz Suzuki, this one is Shunryu Suzuki.

 

"Daisetz Suzuki brought Zen to the West single-handed. Fifty years later, Shunryu Suzuki did something almost as important."

I want to read books from both of them

[JustinS]

@ChimpBrain Hi! Can you help explain what Leo means when he says that we are the perceptions itself and not the perceiver. I don't quite get this. They both sound the same to me. Thanks 

Or if there is a video that Leo posted about this, I would like to watch. 

Edited June 4, 2016 by JustinS
Few more words

[ChimpBrain]

On 6/2/2016 at 5:49 PM, Leo Gura said:

1 hour ago, JustinS said:

@ChimpBrain Hi! Can you help explain what Leo means when he says that we are the perceptions itself and not the perceiver. I don't quite get this. They both sound the same to me. Thanks 

Or if there is a video that Leo posted about this, I would like to watch. 

There's is a video where he explains it MUCH better than I'd ever be able to but I'm sorry I can't remember which one. Understanding awareness maybe.? Or The Benefits of Enlightenment? Hopefully someone else will chime in and tell us. 

 

I think you're probably already familiar with the line of thought, I'm just doing a poor job of describing it. It's been 2 months or so since I watched the video so forgive me. Basically "you", your self concept, is just another perception manufactured by your nervous system. You're in a constant state of Flux and there is no you at all, only a perception of you. But you can't be both the perceiver of these perceptions and a perception itself, so what the hell are you? I feel like I'm butchering this tbh so definitely find the video where Leo describes it because it was pretty damn mind blowing the way he laid it out. 

[Leo Gura]

On 6/3/2016 at 6:33 PM, Dustin Dustbin said:

I find it very difficult to escape the perception that the awareness is anywhere else but inside of me.

Yes, it's so obvious that you're missing it in plain sight.

Notice that any object you perceive is actually OUT THERE, it's not literally inside you. It takes place exactly where it is, namely, out there. Which means you're out there. Otherwise, how could you have access to it at all?

You have to completely throw away the standard scientific model of how perception works. That's not how perception really works. Notice that you have no awareness of rays of lights bouncing off things and entering your eye. That's a fiction. That's not actually happening. Do you literally see trees inside you? Is a tree inside you? If not, then where actually is it?

What's really happening is BEing. Stuff is just BEing. The body is being. The tree is being. The voice in "your head" is being.

Takes careful sitting and looking to start to notice this. Keep at it.

On 6/3/2016 at 6:33 PM, Dustin Dustbin said:

I've pulled energy from trees into my body but if I could understand how I was already the tree this step would be unessesary.

This has nothing to do with manipulating your experience. Just observe your most ordinary experience. If the tree isn't you, how come it exists at all? For it to exist, you have to be aware of it! It's right there out side the body! So what is it if it's not you?

Before you were born there was nothing. Then you came into existence and there was the whole world. When you die, you believe the entire world will end. So you already acknowledge the entire world is you to some extent. Keep investigating that.

Also ask yourself why you believe you're you at all. What if you just made a mistake and got attached to a bunch of sensations called "my body & my mind" when you were born, but all of that is just one big mistake? How do you know what you are supposed to feel like? How do you know you're not supposed to look like a tree? How can you trust your frame of reference? Have you been a human before? What if a human is actually supposed to be experienced like a tree looks?

Keep questioning like that. Undermine your own certainty in yourself. After all, that thing you think is you isn't actually you! It's like you were born, saw a vacuum cleaner, thought it was you, and have lived that way your whole life, not really noticing that your original selection of vacuum cleaner was totally arbitrary.

[Dustin Dustbin]

23 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Before you were born there was nothing. Then you came into existence and there was the whole world. When

23 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, it's so obvious that you're missing it in plain sight.

Notice that any object you perceive is actually OUT THERE, it's not literally inside you. It takes place exactly where it is, namely, out there. Which means you're out there. Otherwise, how could you have access to it at all?

You have to completely throw away the standard scientific model of how perception works. That's not how perception really works. Notice that you have no awareness of rays of lights bouncing off things and entering your eye. That's a fiction. That's not actually happening. Do you literally see trees inside you? Is a tree inside you? If not, then where actually is it?

What's really happening is BEing. Stuff is just BEing. The body is being. The tree is being. The voice in "your head" is being.

Takes careful sitting and looking to start to notice this. Keep at it.

 

 

I see it..

At a minimum I must go outside of my body to perceive the tree. 

This is very helpful.

I also have some grip on most of the rest of it but need time to work on it a bit. The only real snag is in the idea that nothing was here before me or after me. I've been operating under the assumption Abraham Lincoln and such historical stuff was here before me. I haven't given much thought to what will be here after me because it causes me discomfort....I'm gonna want that stuff and I'm not sure how can do that.

[abrakamowse]

@Dustin Dustbin  just begin to investigate, you can also check those theories about time in traditional science... Einstein for example. If you are a bit skeptical it will surprise you that science has proven a lot of things that have been said thousands of years ago by philosophers.

 

"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."

- Albert Einstein

Edited June 6, 2016 by abrakamowse

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Dustin Dustbin said:

At a minimum I must go outside of my body to perceive the tree.

No, you don't.

The tree is already there outside the body. And you are it. There is no going outside the body. You are ALREADY outside the body!

The problem is you keep telling yourself you're inside the body. Undermining that belief is all that's required here.

There is nowhere to go. There is exactly what there appears to be. Nothing is hidden.

[Key Elements]

@Leo Gura 

All that you've said here reminds me of the story of Buddha and Angulimala, the cerial killer. He cuts his victim's thumbs off after murdering them. I'm posting a version of the story below. However, that's not the version I heard. The one I heard, Buddha decided to give Augulimala a second chance at living with society and dresses him in simple yellow robes. The society (villagers) welcomed Augulimala not knowing who he was. Augulimala, while living as an ascetic, started feeling really bad that he committed all those murders. When he confessed openly, the villagers killed him.