Pick Up = Sexual Harassment?

[Key Elements]

@Arcangelo what about the other areas of your life? Are you working on them? Sometimes that's where you meet your match--along the way, when you work on yourself. Because I do notice that the couples who end up staying together started off meeting each other when they were not even looking. They were not even saying to themselves, "I want a gf/bf," not even thinking of it. They just get along, and it felt right. Just saying, ok? Not sure if you thought of it this way. You know, when you ask couples how they've met and how long have they been together. Of course, they will not say everything. Ppl only open up if you're a great listener, open-minded, and non-criticizing.

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Arcangelo said:

They don't know i am approaching other women. 

I wouldn’t make that assumption. You are seeing this from the male perspective and unaware of female conditioning and development. 
I spent a summer living in Cusco Peru. Everyday, people we come up to me to ask me a question or tell me something. Once they had my engagement, they would try to sell me something or ask me for something. They were dressed like typical locals. Some were obvious and carried stuff like pamphlets.  Others were subtle. They would  start off with something simple like “Isn’t the weather nice today?” to get attention and engagement. At first, they seemed genuine and I would engage to be friendly, then I’d realize I got fooled. Yet after about two weeks, I became in tune with it. Even the most subtle peddlers had a particular vibe, a type of look, energy or posture. I could now pick up on it quickly. I could tell a peddler from a regular person as soon as they looked at me, before they even said anything. And this is in only two weeks. The young attractive women you approach deal with multiple male peddlers everyday for years. If you think you are some kind of cloaked male player that women can’t pick up on, you are in your own reality bubble. They can detect it and know you are an approacher of women. 

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, Arcangelo said:

OFC is objectifying my sexuality is rock solid orange. That's the level of development I am at. Maslow and Leo say: Get sex first, full fill your needs if you wanna keep self actualizing. If not you will have wholes in your pyramid and the cravings for sex  will not let you develop further.

This pick up thing is bullshit, it's just marketing. I was doing pick up before it was called pick up. Back in the day it was called: Trying to get a fucking girlfriend.

I get the feeling that you guys perceive me as a PUA. No man i am just a guy trying to know someone to have regular quality sex with. That's all.

But i don't understand. They don't know i am approaching other women. What they know is: -''Oh this guy finds me attractive, that's why he is talking to me, too bad i don't consider him attractive, ciao''

Arc

Trust me. They know that you're approaching other women.

They deal with 10 guys a day approaching them ever since the beginning of puberty. So, that 23 year old, already had over a decade of experience with men approaching. So, obviously she knew. 

So, it stands to reason that the guys that are approaching them (and obviously only based on arbitrary factors like age/appearance/gender) are also approaching a ton of other women. By the time a girl hits 15 or 16 years old, they're already onto the numbers game because they are directly privy to the numbers games that men play... since they were like 12. That's what I'm telling you. They can smell it on you... and it's a bad smell that any woman with a shred of self esteem and life experience finds repulsive.

And all the other stuff about Spiral Dynamics level and not being a PUA was irrelevant to the points I was making. I was merely telling you that, from the female perspective, you were coming off as creepy and immature for the reasons I mentioned. So, you aren't doing a very good job with social acuity. 

Like, I'm literally giving you pick up advice about how you're coming off from the female perspective. I'm just not sugar-coating it. 

 

 

 

[Nickyy]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Trust me. They know that you're approaching other women.

They deal with 10 guys a day approaching them ever since the beginning of puberty. So, that 23 year old, already had over a decade of experience with men approaching. So, obviously she knew. 

So, it stands to reason that the guys that are approaching them (and obviously only based on arbitrary factors like age/appearance/gender) are also approaching a ton of other women. By the time a girl hits 15 or 16 years old, they're already onto the numbers game because they are directly privy to the numbers games that men play... since they were like 12. That's what I'm telling you. They can smell it on you... and it's a bad smell that any woman with a shred of self esteem and life experience finds repulsive.

And all the other stuff about Spiral Dynamics level and not being a PUA was irrelevant to the points I was making. I was merely telling you that, from the female perspective, you were coming off as creepy and immature for the reasons I mentioned. So, you aren't doing a very good job with social acuity. 

Like, I'm literally giving you pick up advice about how you're coming off from the female perspective. I'm just not sugar-coating it. 

 

 

 

You must have a strong masculine side to you. Because a lot of women don't give men feedback or articulate how they are feeling because it is too masculine a trait. That why to a lot of us men women can seem so mysterious. But really women who excersise too much of their masculine by mothering a guy will actually rise her testosterone levels and drop her estrogen levels, and this causes a lot of stress physically . 

I try to imagine what it's like for women who are extremely feminine by nature to hold down an exec job and then come home to a guy who isnt in touch with his life purpose. I imagine the stress that causes.

I think that's why a lot of women just remain single. 

[Nickyy]

On 19/11/2019 at 3:35 AM, Etherial Cat said:

Attraction needs to build up. Unless the dude is so attractive that my brain processes instantly at the moment I'm laying my eyes on him that I'm having a lucky day, I am not interested in knowing he's into me, because at this point, I don't give a damn about it. 

@Arcangelo

Arc, this is quality information here. 

Do a little experiment and try to imagine yourself out an about minding your own business and then imagine some guy who walks past you staring at your crotch area.

How does it feel to have someone you're not attracted to eyeing you up? 

Imagine that feeling in your body and mind and understand that this is close to how women feel about your behaviour (not you) when you're out doing pick up.

Women are not like us guys cos guys can get attracted just by visuals. Whereas women are not attracted by visuals. So if a woman is just going about her business and has guys checking her out, it feels the same as you being eyed up by another male. It falls into the category of unwanted attention. 

It's especially creepy when you're coming from a place of deficiency. 

 

 

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Nickyy said:

You must have a strong masculine side to you. Because a lot of women don't give men feedback or articulate how they are feeling because it is too masculine a trait. That why to a lot of us men women can seem so mysterious. But really women who excersise too much of their masculine by mothering a guy will actually rise her testosterone levels and drop her estrogen levels, and this causes a lot of stress physically . 

I try to imagine what it's like for women who are extremely feminine by nature to hold down an exec job and then come home to a guy who isnt in touch with his life purpose. I imagine the stress that causes.

I think that's why a lot of women just remain single. 

I spent a long time repressing my feminine side earlier in life and made it wrong to be feminine in anything other than appearance. So, I basically lived as a female on the outside but a male on the inside since later childhood in that I held myself very tightly to the ideals of male social norms around stoicism especially.

So, I have a very well-developed masculine side because I've exercised it a lot. But I've spent the last 10 years getting back in touch with my feminine side, which is actually more natural to me... though my masculine side is genuine to me as well. It just carried the show for so many years, while the other aspect of me was locked away.

But I find articulation and communication to be about integration of the feminine and the masculine. So, you need an integration of both sides to have the capacity to make people understand you... especially those who are of the opposite polarity.

You need the feminine to have an intimate intuitive awareness of emotions. You need the masculine to understand them with logical thought and articulate them. So, a woman (or man) who has a dis-integrated masculine side may feel their emotions deeply, won't be able to articulate their emotions and will unconsciously resort to manipulation to get their point across. So, it most likely isn't a choice to not seem masculine. Women usually don't mind having an integrated masculine side because masculine values are smiled upon in both genders in our society.

And a man (or woman) with a dis-integrated feminine side will have a very limited awareness of their emotions and won't be able to intuit other people's feelings. They'll be able to express general emotions (happy, sad, angry, etc.) but will miss all the nuances and details of emotions. So, when a woman can't articulate her more detailed and complex feelings to a man who can't understand or relate to them, it causes a lot of tension.

To the masculine emotions are simple and clear cut and are as easy to read as Clifford the Big Red Dog. This is because the masculine has a birds eye view of the emotions and they don't see (or get lost in) the details. This enables men to make quick and detached decisions. But it also makes men with a disintegrated feminine terrible at emotional understanding, empathy, and intuitive thinking.

To the feminine, emotions are complex and nuanced and it takes some know-how to read. It's like the street view of the emotions that the masculine has a birds-eye-view of.

So, the feminine is like reading War and Peace and picking up on different themes and textures of the text. It takes some skill to do so... which comes from the integration of the masculine side. So a woman with no integration of the masculine side is trying to read War in Peace in a foreign language that she doesn't know.

And then, she tries to communicate details from the text and themes from the text to a man with a disintegrated feminine side who has only ever read Clifford the Big Red Dog and thinks that's the only kind of book to read. And she gets frustrated by not understanding her own emotions and the fact that the man (who she hopes will stand in for her masculine side) can't understand either because he never learned that there is more nuance to the emotions than the complexity Clifford the Big Red Dog. And he goes, "Why can't she just tell me how she feels. Reading Clifford the Big Red Dog is so easy! See, happy, sad. I want this. I want that. Super easy!" 

 

 

[Nickyy]

59 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I spent a long time repressing my feminine side earlier in life and made it wrong to be feminine in anything other than appearance. So, I basically lived as a female on the outside but a male on the inside since later childhood in that I held myself very tightly to the ideals of male social norms around stoicism especially.

So, I have a very well-developed masculine side because I've exercised it a lot. But I've spent the last 10 years getting back in touch with my feminine side, which is actually more natural to me... though my masculine side is genuine to me as well. It just carried the show for so many years, while the other aspect of me was locked away.

But I find articulation and communication to be about integration of the feminine and the masculine. So, you need an integration of both sides to have the capacity to make people understand you... especially those who are of the opposite polarity.

You need the feminine to have an intimate intuitive awareness of emotions. You need the masculine to understand them with logical thought and articulate them. So, a woman (or man) who has a dis-integrated masculine side may feel their emotions deeply, won't be able to articulate their emotions and will unconsciously resort to manipulation to get their point across. So, it most likely isn't a choice to not seem masculine. Women usually don't mind having an integrated masculine side because masculine values are smiled upon in both genders in our society.

And a man (or woman) with a dis-integrated feminine side will have a very limited awareness of their emotions and won't be able to intuit other people's feelings. They'll be able to express general emotions (happy, sad, angry, etc.) but will miss all the nuances and details of emotions. So, when a woman can't articulate her more detailed and complex feelings to a man who can't understand or relate to them, it causes a lot of tension.

To the masculine emotions are simple and clear cut and are as easy to read as Clifford the Big Red Dog. This is because the masculine has a birds eye view of the emotions and they don't see (or get lost in) the details. This enables men to make quick and detached decisions. But it also makes men with a disintegrated feminine terrible at emotional understanding, empathy, and intuitive thinking.

To the feminine, emotions are complex and nuanced and it takes some know-how to read. It's like the street view of the emotions that the masculine has a birds-eye-view of.

So, the feminine is like reading War and Peace and picking up on different themes and textures of the text. It takes some skill to do so... which comes from the integration of the masculine side. So a woman with no integration of the masculine side is trying to read War in Peace in a foreign language that she doesn't know.

And then, she tries to communicate details from the text and themes from the text to a man with a disintegrated feminine side who has only ever read Clifford the Big Red Dog and thinks that's the only kind of book to read. And she gets frustrated by not understanding her own emotions and the fact that the man (who she hopes will stand in for her masculine side) can't understand either because he never learned that there is more nuance to the emotions than the complexity Clifford the Big Red Dog. And he goes, "Why can't she just tell me how she feels. Reading Clifford the Big Red Dog is so easy! See, happy, sad. I want this. I want that. Super easy!" 

 

 

This is very useful, thank you. 

In your experience what tools or resources would you recommend to us readers of Clifford The Big Red Dog use to allow us to get a grip of our feminine side so that we can naturally be more in tune with women and other people so that this inevitably leads to those needs arc is talking about getting met in a holistic, less fragmented way?

I would have guessed identification with orange rationality is the biggest obstacle here, and maybe getting a dummies grip on Jung's archetypes would help in some way?

I'd love to hear your thoughts (and feelings of course) ?

Edited November 20, 2019 by Nickyy

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

This is very useful, thank you. 

In your experience what tools or resources would you recommend to us readers of Clifford The Big Red Dog use to allow us to get a grip of our feminine side so that we can naturally be more in tune with women and other people so that this inevitably leads to those needs arc is talking about getting met in a holistic, less fragmented way?

I would have guessed identification with orange rationality is the biggest obstacle here, and maybe getting a dummies grip on Jung's archetypes would help in some way?

I'd love to hear your thoughts (and feelings of course) ?

Orange has a really hard time with emotions and the feminine because Orange has a lot of emotional stakes in its own ability to compete. And men especially have a hard time leaving Orange because men are socially looked down upon more than women for being in touch with emotions and expressing anything that would get in the way of their ability to compete.

Manhood is fetishized and looked upon as an ideal all the way up until Green, and Female-ness is seen as lesser up until Green as well. So, it's harder for men to abandon that story where there is hope to meet the ideals of manhood from Orange and below... and that's true even if most men will never experience those ideals. It's a carrot on a stick... but very few can let go of the desire for the carrot and will keep coloring in the lines of social expectations to mitigate their feelings of unworthiness. And that is done through Orange's achiever nature who wants to be the best with women too.

So, it really comes down to the man's ability to experience himself as a complex emotional being as opposed to a stoic achiever and/or failure who doesn't live up to that expectation.

So, it's about a man being aware and honest with himself about his emotions and reading them in a more nuanced way. The masculine orientation toward emotion tends toward detachment and distance which simplifies things... but it insulates them from experiencing the full complexity and high definition resolution of their emotions.

But if a man learns to integrate his feminine side, he will be able to see his emotions clearly for what they are in a way that's closer up. And with a little skill, he will both perceive and be able to articulate his boundaries and feelings. And this will paradoxically make his masculinity shine through in a more brilliant way. 

So, it's really about the ability to see yourself in a radically honest light, and to honor your feelings and boundaries. Sinking into being more and allowing yourself to let go of extreme attachment ambitions to be at the tippy top of the hierarchy... to which emotional awareness and honesty is antithetical.

 

 

[Nickyy]

13 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Orange has a really hard time with emotions and the feminine because Orange has a lot of emotional stakes in its own ability to compete. 

So I think you mean compete in the sense of competing in society for status, wealth, approval, approval from women, power over ones destiny, approval from society to conform to expectations of go go go, unlimited growth, unlimited economic growth. Competing with other men to attract the "hottest" women as a commodity and an object that is there to satisfy sexual needs, social needs, needs to be seen in a certain way by others. 

In this structure there is no room for being an individual who is different, there is no room for appearing "weak" (because orange would view a man is informed by his emotions as inferior, beta, wishy washy, a cuck, etc. Gender roles are still fixed , men cannot express feminine traits, energies, passions.

21 minutes ago, Emerald said:

and that's true even if most men will never experience those ideals. It's a carrot on a stick... but very few can let go of the desire for the carrot and will keep coloring in the lines of social expectations to mitigate their feelings of unworthiness. And that is done through Orange's achiever nature who wants to be the best with women too.

By this you mean that there is an expectation to live upto these standards and if you don't then there is obviously (according to orange) something inherently wrong with you as a person. Which creates a vicious circle inside the orange structure as actually leaving orange would actually guarantee that orange would find actual self worth and the relationship success orange desperately seeks ironically because it is only stuck in orange, identified with the orange structure. 

Orange doesn't see that authentic connection with people and the abandoning of objectification with people requires a shift to green and beyond. 

30 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, it's about a man being aware and honest with himself about his emotions and reading them in a more nuanced way. The masculine orientation toward emotion tends toward detachment and distance which simplifies things... but it insulates them from experiencing the full complexity and high definition resolution of their emotions.

Ok, so honesty and embracing the emotions is better in the long term than simply denying them and "Manning up" which is a form of dissociating (but not in the clinical sense) but just a converting up of the emotions and fear of acting on them because of the expectations that an orange centred society has 

35 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But if a man learns to integrate his feminine side, he will be able to see his emotions clearly for what they are in a way that's closer up. And with a little skill, he will both perceive and be able to articulate his boundaries and feelings. And this will paradoxically make his masculinity shine through in a more brilliant way. 

So allowing being with and respecting your emotions as a man and letting go of the pathological fixation to orange and orange culture, we will see a more integrated emotional system, and that will manifest itself in more wisdom, more control and less emotion spilling out inappropriately as frustration, desperation, fixation to ego, fixation to other people's ideas, and more ability to be present and notice what's going on around you in the social sphere. Social acuity, as you call it. 

 

 

[Nickyy]

@Emerald

I have observed with orange that there is definately this huge need to be seen in a specific way, and that tends to create a contrived personality that is trying to be masculine but underneath there is this neediness and stiffness being sub communicated . I think this portrays a false idea of masculinity, like you say, a kind of stoicism which creates a culture of men who all dress the same, have the same haircuts, similar sense of humour, similar views on culture. 

I guess you could say it's a kind of cheesiness coming through with this obsession on ones ego and fixation on becoming something.

I noticed this with Owen Cook lately on his latest RSD free releases. He's talking about some very high level PD stuff, but sadly still interpreting it through orange need for egoic self mastery. 

It's llike he's using spritiualtiy in service of the ego and not really getting it despite many years studying self development and "applying" himself. 

I don't think hes really getting anywhere except going round in circles trying to master orange. 

What's your take? 

 

 

[JustThinkingAloud]

@Emerald @Nickyy

It’s interesting how different conditioning can make men and women that different. Just the fact that girls get dolls and boys get trucks as toys can create unnecessary differences and confuse it for everyone. Deep inside we are all same, it’s just our reproductive organs that are different.

[Nickyy]

2 minutes ago, JustThinkingAloud said:

@Emerald @Nickyy

It’s interesting how different conditioning can make men and women that different. Just the fact that girls get dolls and boys get trucks as toys can create unnecessary differences and confuse it for everyone. Deep inside we are all same, it’s just our reproductive organs that are different.

Is conditioning separate from nature tho? That's the big question 

[JustThinkingAloud]

5 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

Is conditioning separate from nature tho? That's the big question 

Do you see animals treating their offspring differently based on their gender? They let the nature do its own thing, they do not condition them to be certain way.

[Nickyy]

3 minutes ago, JustThinkingAloud said:

Do you see animals treating their offspring differently based on their gender? They let the nature do its own thing, they do not condition them to be certain way.

Let's not go off topic. This thread has the potential to change lives lol 

We should talk about how animals have social hierarchy and masculine feminine differences aswell. But not on here. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Nickyy

[JustThinkingAloud]

Just now, Nickyy said:

Let's not go off topic. This thread has the potential to change lives 

We should talk about how animals have social hierarchy and masculine feminine differences aswell. But not on here. 

Oh well, if you don't want to hear that we're not that different and want to keep confusing it for yourself, that's up to you.

[Nickyy]

3 minutes ago, JustThinkingAloud said:

Oh well, if you don't want to hear that we're not that different and want to keep confusing it for yourself, that's up to you.

Just start another thread. It's not hard. ????

[JustThinkingAloud]

1 minute ago, Nickyy said:

Just start another thread. It's not hard. ????

Wow, I haven't notice that you are a moderator. ????

[Nickyy]

Just now, JustThinkingAloud said:

Wow, I haven't notice that you are a moderator. ????

You are trying to draw me into a compulsive mind game that I know will end in getting this thread locked.

If your intention here is not to help people but to express your immediate impulses then just start your own thread and the mods will eventually come to a deacon about your overall intentions here. 

But please don't attempt to sabotage productive threads. 

[JustThinkingAloud]

Just now, Nickyy said:

You are trying to draw me into a compulsive mind game that I know will end in getting this thread locked.

If your intention here is not to help people but to express your immediate impulses then just start your own thread and the mods will eventually come to a deacon about your overall intentions here. 

But please don't attempt to sabotage productive threads. 

Nothing personal, no need to make it personal but if you would like me to ignore you, that's fine with me.

[Nickyy]

Just now, JustThinkingAloud said:

Nothing personal, no need to make it personal but if you would like me to ignore you, that's fine with me.

I don't want to ignore you, but I have reported you for trying to derail a serious thread