My Experiences on SSRI Level of Stable Happiness After Meditative Joy Mastery

[ardacigin]

Before I start this post, I wanted to clarify that I've waited for more than 30 days to explore this dramatic increase in my baseline happiness, joy and equanimity for the purposes of not misdirecting anyone.

I wanted to make sure this is not some simple meditation high before I've explained people what this is all about. I wanted to see how the mind adapts after the initial effortlessness of joy and happiness.

Since I've completed the integration period in these 30 days, I can speak about what happened with good authority. I can conclusively claim that I've significantly altered my emotional circuits for pleasure, happiness, joy and equanimity. In Buddhist terms, I have close to effortless access to many of the pleasure jhanas explained in the literature. (Especially 2nd and 3rd jhana)

So about 30 days ago, I've decided to do a 4 hours long uninterrupted TMI meditation. This is not a SDS sit. I've allowed myself to move. In fact, I had the allowance to rotate between these 3 postures while maintaining mindfulness: sitting cross legged, laying down and walking.

The 4 hour session was all right. I was extremely concentrated but was in a state of dullness right from the beginning. In fact, that is why I've decided to do walking sessions. I normally never do stuff like that.

Nothing too unusual happened apart from a few psychedelic levels of visual fluidity around 3 hour mark. I didn't had any memorable experiences beyond that. Just to clarify, I've never seriously tried jhana meditation or never even intentionally cultivated feelings of happiness and joy in meditation. I was just doing the practices with as much equanimity as I could do.

But that night, all of a sudden, I was pervaded by high levels of happiness and joy. These feelings were hitting me left and right. My head area is raptured with bliss and joy. This is apparently what is called 'fully developed meditative joy' explained in TMI. From the explanation, I'd never think that this would be so stable, pervasive, high and in one's conscious intentional control.

In a sense, I'm 'willing' happiness and joy into existence. I imagine ( aka consciously intend) for happiness and my mind gives it to me in a stable and high degree. 

If you've ever taken SSRI, the pleasure you get out of that is not even comparable to meditative joy. Even if we assumed that due to a high dose of SSRI, you've managed to feel more pleasure than meditative joy, the contentment, mindfulness and equanimity element is not there.

 Also this is dependent on an external chemical. Meditative joy is an internal development (even if it is still conditioned). Jhana practice is much more than simply intending to have pleasurable experiences.

Actually managing to develop meditative joy effortlessly to this level I've attained is no small thing. But it is possible for many meditators who practice diligently with the right methods for them.

If you are one of those people who wondered: 'Is stable happiness and joy possible similar to anti-depressants?'

The answer is: 'Yes, and don't undersell what spirituality can accomplish.'

You actually experience more joy and happiness with contentment with 10 times more stability (compared to anti-depressants) because this is internally produced by the mind. It becomes more conditioned and stable after a while. You are not dependent on a chemical externally.

Stability and independence is the problem in SSRI's. Very few depressed people who take 'potent' SSRI's report experiencing the bliss of happiness and contentment on stable and high levels ALL the time starting from waking up and going bed.

But meditation has currently got me to that level. And I know for a fact that this refined state of mind could be developed infinitely since mindfulness itself can be infinitely developed.

But to do that in daily life, I need to do 2 things.

1- Get to effortlessness of happiness and joy with strong equanimity in a formal session. Depending on my mental state, this can take as little as 5-10 mins or 1 hour.

2- Maintain a strong intention to continue this refined state of mind with metacognitive awareness in daily life. Otherwise, both happiness and contentment can go down to subtle-low levels depending on how demanding the task I'm doing.

There is a difference between listening to cool music and dealing with a business crisis. Although I can maintain subtle-low levels of happiness in both scenarios,  I can't maintain the peak of the formal session if I don't have a strong intention to maintain it in a business crisis.

In other words, My current experience of daily life is filled with stable feelings of happiness with contentment in a joyful state of mind. A joyful state of mind creates feelings of happiness mentally and physically.

The degree of happiness is more than if you've taken an average dose of a relatively strong anti-depressant. Let me clear on that. You can abuse these drugs but like I said, even if you were to experience more pleasure and bliss, the contentment and equanimity which creates both the stability and satisfaction won't be there. 

Then you add powerful introspective awareness in a state of open awareness with stable attention on top of all this joy, contentment and happiness. The end result is pure bliss in a highly refined state of samatha. The perfect state of mind to do investigation towards reality.

In a formal session, I can sometimes boost it to that level of refinement. But in daily sessions, the baseline is low levels of joy and happiness all day long (starting from the moment I wake up to going bed) with low levels of contentment and equanimity. That is my lowest point while actually meditating. 

If I'm awfully dull or tired, The low levels of joy and happiness can go down to subtle levels. If I completely stop meditating for a long time, the joy and happiness is no longer perceptible. Equanimity goes down a lot. But the good news is that it takes less than 5 mins to get to subtle-low levels of stable joy and happiness.

My nervous system has changed its primary operating system to 'anti-depressant' levels of happiness and joy. I can stabilize my consciousness in strong joy and happiness for more than 12+ hours regardless of thinking, talking or formally meditating in silence.

This is stage 8-9 area of mastery of meditative joy in TMI stages of meditation. This one development has been the most enduring development of my entire meditation training. My whole life satisfaction is increased by 50 times. Momentarily I'm tasting the satisfaction of internally cultivated joy and happiness.

So if you want to know if this is possible, I'm here to say 'Yes!!!!! but it will take work on your part.'

Don't listen to people who say samatha or jhana meditation doesn't lead anywhere. I'd bet that certain people who've experienced legit awakenings still might not have stabilized jhanic factors to the degree I'm talking about in this post. I'm talking about almost effortless access to jhanas in daily life. Not formal sessions. 

And I consider myself not awake by insight meditation standards. I've only developed this highly refined state of mind by working with TMI for 4 years. I still need to be conscious of infinite insights from this point onwards. But my emotional mastery line of development is close to awakening levels due to this meditative joy.

The key difference is that samatha is a conditioned state and will disappear if I stop the practice. But awakening will result in a permanent intuitive shift in my understanding of suffering, self and reality. So far, that hasn't occurred to that degree.

But for what I've accomplished with TMI in only 3-4 years is nothing less than life-changing. When your practice starts to lean deeper towards stage 8-9, meditative joy and happiness will literally start to consume your life. 

My ability to hold on to negative unwholesome states of minds like frustration, boredom, anger, sadness etc. is little to none. I need to put a lot of intentional effort to feel anger at somebody. Or sadness. Or loneliness.

I hope this helped some of you who are struggling with motivation. Keep working and practicing diligently. 

Feel free to ask me your questions as well

Edited November 17, 2019 by ardacigin

[themovement]

Congratulations man Im really happy for you, you are always posted on here with amazing accounts from TMI and keeping us all motivated. How much effort did you have to put into this to get where you are, how many hours a day do you practice say at the beginning to now? Also did you go on any retreats?

[ardacigin]

@themovement I did put about 3 years of exclusive effort into TMI practices and studying. I meditate 1-2 hours in formal sessions normally.But some days, I only practice 20-30 mins. My daily meditation are always strong though. I put extra effort into maintaining at least mid-levels of joy with powerful mindfulness at least 3+ hours every day. If that ability is hindered in anyway, I focus more on formal session and start doing SDS sessions.

I've started straight on with 1-hour session 3 years ago. Because I had 1 year of meditation experience before than. It was very inconsistent and I didn't have a nice manual like TMI back then. So I was meditating the first year purely because Leo was talking about it and I was reading the scientific benefits of mindfulness. That and Shinzen Young were also providing motivation. Until I've read TMI, I was not a committed meditator or a spiritual practitioner.

I've never done ANY retreats in my life. I did do retreats at home but never more than 2 days. I maintain a business and where I live, I don't have easy access to retreat centers. I plan to do one at some point in the future.

They are definitely valuable if you can do it. But realize that I've accomplished all this with daily formal sits with an INTENSE emphasis on daily cultivation. Of course TMI instructions were invaluable. If I didn't focus so much on daily meditation, I'd never progress to this level.

I also had a period of time in my life where I was meditating 90-120 mins in SDS every morning and doing 6+ hours of hardcore mindfulness in daily life that same day for 6 months straight. That improved my practice a lot and one can argue that this gave me the retreat effect in a lighter way. 

Hope this was useful

 

[Aeris]

some questions on your practice, if you are willing to answer them

 

what do you do when you meditate ? what type of precise meditation ( for your case )
nothing ?

focus on nothing ?

focus on something in your head that isn't a thing ?

focusing on having no thoughts ?

not focus at all & accept everything as it happen ?

would you use plants/herbs for improve you meditative seccion ?

 what has been the most efficient way to deepen your awareness ? / state of mind  / long term.

would you describe relative stage of practice ? ( like ' judo bells ' )

what did you reach in those 4 years from meditation besides "spiritual insight" ? and if any big insights, what are they ?

Edited November 17, 2019 by Aeris

[ardacigin]

@Aeris Wonderful questions. Let me help you.

My current meditation involve further stabilization of the jhanic factors (happiness and joy) with equanimity and contentment in stable spacious open awareness where my usual sense of being a separate self is blurry. If I can maintain it to a sufficient degree, I move forward with mahamudra like investigation and/or self enquiry. But majority of the sit involves stabilization rather than investigation. This will change as I go further in my practice.

My current meditation object is contentment, equanimity levels, mind states and positive emotions. As TMI advise, I stabilize attention to the breath and develop awareness on these introspective elements. 

My thought activity is low if I go deep into formal session. But the joy and happiness I'm describing here have nothing to do with thought activity. In fact, I can argue that thought activity stimulates high energy in the mind which increases the joy and happiness. Rather than being an obstacle, it can aid my jhanic practices. I can maintain this with or without thought. Compared to an average meditator, I have less thoughts overall.

I don't use supplement. In fact, I don't have the healthiest diet currently. One would think that lack of nutrition would disable certain hormones which take a role in jhanas but even in intermittent fasting sort of circumstances, meditation quality is very high. Happiness and joy is very profound. Other than dullness issues which are ascribed to carbohydrates, I don't experience any ill effects of low-quality food. But don't get me wrong. Eating healthy is still important. This is just a phase in my life where I don't focus too much on what I eat.

Long term, TMI like systematic instructions saved my meditation practice.

I don't understand what you mean by 'relative stage of practice'

I've had insight experiences prior to meditation joy mastery where my intuitive understanding of being a separate self was temporarily shut down. I was in sober meditation. It happened 3 times while going to sleep. I lost my boundaries - the point where my skin ends and outside stuff starts. I also had slightly less profound experiences in where a reduction in self rigidity occured. This happened a few times.

The point is that all of this was temporary. And as I've mentioned, the most enduring aspect of my practice has been the development of meditative joy. My life has changed in a fundamental way. I currently understand what people mean by meditation can produce literal ecstasy.

 

[Consilience]

Thank you for the update ??

Do you think 1 hour per day of meditation practice is really enough? What’s interesting is the more advanced I get with my practice (also using TMI) the more it feels like an hour isnt really enough. But sometimes with spiritual work more doesn’t always equal better. 

So my question, what are your thoughts on meditation volume? Is an hour a day enough in your experience or will eventually someone have to level up and do more?

[ardacigin]

@Consilience 1 hour a day is enough if you can spend that time properly and make the most of it. Provided that you have a strong daily practice. Otherwise it is not enough.

I wanted to say that I did 1 hour a day and focused intensely on daily practice. I also had a 6 month period time where I did 90-120 mins SDS sits back to back with an emphasis on daily practice.

My daily practice has always been stronger than many meditators because I never had the opportunity to go to a retreat. Either I had to learn to meditate in life, or I was screwed. Even 2 hours a day is not enough. If those 2 hours are REALLY high quality, that will already affect the next 2-3 hours.

But you still need to maintain high quality of mindfulness more hours interruptedly. While watching Leo's videos. Playing video games, Working on the business, career stuff. Talking to people. etc.

You have to integrate the rest of your life for mindfulness application. As a lay practitioner like I am, everyone requires this integration as quickly as possible.

Some days I don't even do formal sits, but I have effortless access to formal sit quality. And I can maintain that for many hours if I get to effortlessness described in stage 7 TMI. You can get to effortless access concentration with the breath sensations or the happiness and joy in jhana practice. Currently I do both with an emphasis on jhanas. Either way, you are developing the same skill. And the faster you get to effortlessness, the less inconsistent your practice will become.

[Sev]

Great post again! Because of your posts, I got TMI book recently and intent to start studying it soon.

I just don't have idea what pills you have popped regarding SSRI Never heard that they can have that kind of effect what you are relating.

 

[ardacigin]

@Sev  I know what you mean. I've never tried SSRI but my brother is using it and after asking what sort of effect it has I was shocked to hear it didn't enable this stable happiness I got from TMI and jhana meditation. I thought that was THE reason why people used SSRI and by that I mean the effects would be deeper and more lasting than they really are coming from depression.

Apparently, in a normal dose, they manage some increase in happiness at certain times while preventing emotional crashes. Otherwise, it takes you back to 'normal' neurotic human condition from impulsive suicidal thoughts and constant major depression. 

Realizing that helped me to see how it differs from meditative joy. But the best understanding would come from the experience of both. Someone who've used SSRI for a long time and also experienced this fully developed meditative joy can describe it with more accuracy.

I also don't know how much long term use of SSRI would make it harder or easier to attain jhanas. I do have my own speculations but I'm certainly not an authority on the subject since I'm not a doctor and I've never used one.

I'd be glad if someone who'd used SSRI for a long time can comment on their emotional health after stopping the use of the drug  

As of now, I observe my brother very often and even if he shows a lot of beneficial positive emotional enhancement due to SSRI, what I observe is still not even close to what I'm experiencing. And he is using Paxera for his major depression. It is not a weak SSRI by industry standards.

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by ardacigin

[Aeris]

19 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

@Sev  I know what you mean. I've never tried SSRI but my brother is using it and after asking what sort of effect it has I was shocked to hear it didn't enable this stable happiness I got from TMI and jhana meditation. I thought that was THE reason why people used SSRI and by that I mean the effects would be deeper and more lasting than they really are coming from depression.

Apparently, in a normal dose, they manage some increase in happiness at certain times while preventing emotional crashes. Otherwise, it takes you back to 'normal' neurotic human condition from impulsive suicidal thoughts and constant major depression. 

Realizing that helped me to see how it differs from meditative joy. But the best understanding would come from the experience of both. Someone who've used SSRI for a long time and also experienced this fully developed meditative joy can describe it with more accuracy.

I also don't know how much long term use of SSRI would make it harder or easier to attain jhanas. I do have my own speculations but I'm certainly not an authority on the subject since I'm not a doctor and I've never used one.

I'd be glad if someone who'd used SSRI for a long time can comment on their emotional health after stopping the use of the drug  

As of now, I observe my brother very often and even if he shows a lot of beneficial positive emotional enhancement due to SSRI, what I observe is still not even close to what I'm experiencing. And he is using Paxera for his major depression. It is not a weak SSRI by industry standards.

 

depletion from any major chemicals will create imbalance.

thanks for your answer.

I don't really use words to point to my work, I practice daily now, from 1 hour to more, everyday.

no machinery, or anything. I don't even follow any rules.

legs laying down, head on the chair, and I can enter deep state of nothingness by just being there.

I don't appreciate the words of others that describe most of the time nothing to my experience.

 

most of mental depression comes from an identification with thoughts ( as being the thought  )

deep meditation turned on easy for me after doing mushroom / macro / micro and some drop of LSD, I was on acid for like 2 weeks everyday.

then I got backslash, and then I started to have a sense of "how to meditate" creating a deep space within myself until I disapear entirely ( do nothing meditation )

but sometimes I use "focus" when I start to wander about any thought, I keep looking on the breath, then I start to forget looking for the breath.

I can almost induce state of egodeathness by sitting more than 10 minutes.

It's not as strong as psychedelics though.

My goal is clearly to change my state of permanent awareness radically from what I m aware of today.
Maybe reach the potential of psychedelics without any;
 

And I try to always enter in deep states until I feel that my brain melt away

Edited November 18, 2019 by Aeris

[ardacigin]

@Areis Thank you for your answer. I hope your meditations will go deeper. It sounds like you are on the right track. Psychedelics are definitely helping you on this journey.

Here is a video on this meditative joy I'm talking about from Culadasa himself. This is currently the most enduring and powerful cognitive change I've experienced that would combat aversion and craving (which is the basis of all unwholesome negative mind states) apart from the effects of permanent awakening.

 

[ardacigin]

@Sev Definitely start reading TMI if you are interested. The systematic structure itself will slowly increase motivation. It is one of my favorite meditation books. It helped me get through many beginner traps like moving attention, lack of awareness development and dullness in a rather short amount of time.

I'd think of my current 3-year-long TMI practice as the shaved off version of a 10-year non-systematic meditation. TMI instructions helped me that much.

 

[molosku]

@ardacigin Also got TMI inspired by your posts (after few years of meditating with little sense of real progress +1 10-day retreat), now almost on 1 month mark of daily meditations, looking forward to stretch the time of individual sits (currently at 30mins a day)  

[Sev]

@ardacigin A few years back when I was starting my spiritual practice I resonated with Shinzen's teachings. However, I couldn't make really any progress with his techniques. SDS, noting etc... It felt more like I was just straining my nervous system. After that switched to yoga and got very different results. It is interesting now after some time get back to trying those things and see if there's any difference.

It's also funny that I never stumbled upon TMI until now even though there's big fanbase around it. Maybe it's because Leo never mentioned that and it's not in his booklist.