If I see some traits of Feminism as a threat or unfair is because I´m biased?

[Angelite]

19 minutes ago, Angelite said:

@Anna1

Found it. This will be good for you and your husband in case he envy you.

And do not wish for that by which Allah has made some of you exceed others. For men is a share of what they have earned, and for women is a share of what they have earned. And ask Allah of his bounty. Indeed Allah is ever, of all things, Knowing. [4:32]

 

And for all (male & female), We have made heirs to what is left by parents and relatives. And to those whom your oaths have bound [to you] - give them their share. Indeed Allah is ever, over all things, a Witness. [4:33]

^this continuation kinda sums up this thread. (Refer, 4:11-12 on the ♣1:2 ratio of man&women 's heir)

Heir is different than what you earned for yourself. 

[purerogue]

9 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@purerogue Part of dominant group privilege is that can be unaware of their privilege. They don’t need to address it or deal with it. That is part of the privilege. If you were female, black or brown in America, you would quickly become aware of privilege. As well there will be strong resistance to seeing one’s own privilege.

One exercise I do in my classes is I go to the chalkboard and tell the students I am going to ask them a question to brainstorm and I will write all their ideas on the chalkboard. I will start off with the men in the class. To the men, tell me all the ways on a daily basis you take to protect yourself from sexual harassment and abuse. . . Silence. . . The men are looking around confused. They don’t know if this is a trick question. . . More silence. . . Sometimes I tease them and say “Don’t be shy guys, tell me all the ways”. . . Then I ask the women the same question and the answers come rapidly. I can’t keep up with them. 

The men have the privilege of not being concerned about protecting themself from sexual harassment and abuse on a daily basis like women do. The men don’t have to consider it or deal with it. Another dynamic is that the vast majority of men will quickly put up mental defenses. About 10% of male students get blindsided by this exercise and have a moment of awakening. They get a glimpse and get curious. Yet about 90% of men will quickly put up defenses of “Well yea, but” and then the defenses go up.

Based on how you phrase your comments and questions in this area that you don’t seem truly genuine, curious and open. At least from my pov. . . You don’t seem to genuinely want to know, understand beyond your current perspective. It’s very very hard to expand with this mindset. For example, you write “I want to know, seriously yet have not noticed them”. To me, you don’t come across as someone that genuinely and seriously wants to know. It’s all around you, yet you do not see and sense it precisely because you don’t want to know. You have all the opportunities to know around you. You could make platonic female friends and genuinely ask them and come to know. You could go out to a cafe with black friends and ask them with genuinely curiosity, yet you don’t. . . I’m a natural empath and it’s very easy for me to see and experience other people’s perspectives. And I’m also very curious and fascinated by it. One of the keys is to drop ownership of any perspective, go empty and allow it to arise. Yet this seems to be extraordinarily difficult for most people. More dramatic means are generally necessary. For example, you could go live within an oppressed minority group. I lived in a poor community in Honduras for a while and many privileges were revealed. Yet just telling you would be insufficient due to thought filters and defenses. . . Or one could date a person of an oppressed minority. I dated a black woman and directly experienced racism. She helped reveal many of my privileges through direct experience. Or one could volunteer within an oppressed marginalized group. I volunteered for years in a psychiatric ward and many of my privileges were revealed. This type of direct experience would be sufficient for many, yet not all. . . Another method might be through psychedelics. Psychedelics can dissolve one’s own attachment to identity and increase levels of empathy and awareness. . . The next level would be extremely radical. For example, if you transitioned into a transgender woman you would be nearly guarenteed to have your previous male privledge revealed. 

From what I’ve observed, merely thinking and conceptualizing about it is insufficient intensity for you. If you are truly serious about expanding in this area, I think more intensive direct experience would be necessary. 

These are just my observations. I may be off. Do with them as you wish. 

 

I am sorry, how exactly is sexual harassment privilege, first of all it is against law, second you are talking as if males are safe from this problem, you made a good point, males get no education about how to keep them self safe and they lack support for such problems in general.

Sexual harassment happens both ways, difference is that males do not talk about it as often,as they are supposed to be able to protect them self, which  makes it way harder for them to tell about it even if there would be more support on this mater.

For someone who knows so much about sexual harassment, your post seems completely biased. 

Also point to note is that for some females just as little as guy who she does not like going to her at club and trying to start conversation is sexual harassment, or just looking at her body, you will never hear such nonsense from males, not because it does not happen, but because they do not look at it like that. 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by purerogue

[Meetjoeblack]

On 17/11/2019 at 6:33 AM, Javfly33 said:

I want to hear some opinions on this matter. Over the last 2 years  Overall my view on feminism has changed from being quite opposed to the movement to overall support it.

However I still find myself some times feeling "injustice" or "threatened" to certain stuff. I want to know if this could still be part of my bias but I sometimes I just think some things are really not fair.

I´ll give an example. I just saw an ad asking me to firm a digital petition to the government of my country. (similar to Change.org). There were a lot of "bullet-points" about feminism that the ad was advertising to firm and let know to the government. But there was one that got my interest. That one was simply

"end the violence towards women"

Why as a man I should feel fair that i am regularly asked to sign petitions like "end the violence towards women" which in other words is just "put effort and resources/money to investigate why and how women are more victims in x situations and how we can remedy that" (which of course i dont think its a bad thing!)  but i never get asked to sign "end the violence towards men". I really don´t get it how that is fair. For example as a man I have more probabililty of being murdered or receive any kind of violence (except rape), surely a lot of money and investigation could look into why this happens and how reduce this statistics too. There´s also other scenarios where man are specially the victims apart from the usual violence : homelessness, jails, Labor Risks, Suicide. Why is fair there is almost no money and interest research in how to reduce this statistics and what man can be getting unfair to end in jails or get suicided more than women? From mainstream media In this case is indeed fair to attribute it to genetics and biology. To women problem is always because society. Of course with that dialectis is rational to try to fix everything unfair about women position in society, and ridiculous to fix it with men. 

And please don´t reply the Leo stuff "you are the one who is biased because blabla your survival because it turns out your a male". Yes but the same goes for women they also looking for their survival. Everybody is looking for their comfortabilty and survival. From that perspective women are also wrong for trying to fight for better salaries or positions because they are just looking "for their survival". That argument in this case i can´t see how it would make sense.

 

 

Feminism is abysmal. Sure, it hides behind equality in cowardice fashion but what does it actually do? 

The wage myth has been debunked eons ago. Guys study STEM. Women tend to study the arts, sociology, teaching, etc. Major in something useless and wonder why no money. 

If feminism was actually about equality, they would be anti false accusations, false paternity, the kangaroo Court rooms on college campuses, the divorce and family court systems. 50% divorce stat and 80 % of divorce rape initiated by women. There's some equality. 

Its abysmal. The promo for body positivity, "proud single mom's," because that's something worthy of pride? 

 

I remember a guy i was kind of buddy's with. He started dating a dreaded feminist. Meanwhile she had a tinder account going. The hypocrisy is hilarious. She also cheated on her bf to get at my buddy. But man bad lol. 

The sec I hear feminism, I avoid like the plague. I hear the theme song from the exorcist and I don't need a false accusation. 

[Ananta]

4 hours ago, Meetjoeblack said:

Guys study STEM. Women tend to study the arts, sociology, teaching, etc. Major in something useless and wonder why no money. 

I have an Applied Science Degree in Nursing from a University, which is an area of STEM. 

Why are you being so sexist?

And why are you talking all the time about divorce? You don't even have a girlfriend, but your obsessed with divorce. 

[Annoynymous]

@Meetjoeblack dude, from where do you import these shitty ideas?

I am male and my major was in international relations (arts faculty). My sister is a doctor. Can you see how gross and over generalized position you hold?

Perhaps you should get an arts degree on women and gender studies to get some accurate ideas on feminism to save yourself from you bastardized, toxic and deluded view on feminism.

Your biases are not in your fact, they are on how you interpret them. If you feel so victim as male, start a movement for male rights but do not come from the place of  wounded ego on feminism.  

[Preety_India]

34 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

I have an Applied Science degree in Nursing from University, which is an area of STEM. 

Why you being so sexist?

And why are you talking all the time about divorce? You don't even have a girlfriend, but your obsessed with divorce. 

Anna, you must have noticed that the ones who don't have a gf are the ones who wag the most about divorce and women! Ironies. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Preety_India

[Ananta]

Just now, Preety_India said:

Anna, you must have noticed that the ones who don't have a gf are the ones who wag the most about divorce and women! Ironies. 

Yes, I know. I could name a few names, but that would be rude of me. ? 

I think pointing it out to them, as they complain, is important for them to look inward as to why they are doing it?

I think it's a self defense mechanism of some sort. Sort of like, I can't get a GF, so I'll just talk shit about them, so I won't want one so much.

[Preety_India]

19 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

Yes, I know. I could name a few names, but that would be rude of me. ? 

I think pointing it out to them, as they complain, is important for them to look inward as to why they are doing it?

I think it's a self defense mechanism of some sort. Sort of like, I can't get a GF, so I'll just talk shit about them, so I won't want one so much.

?

[silene]

I don't understand why feminism gets blamed for the issue of child custody in divorce anyway. It's patriarchy which traditionally says women's place is at home looking after the kids. The feminism I know about says it should be equal decision making on roles, not fixed roles depending on your gender. 

[purerogue]

5 hours ago, Annoynymous said:

@Meetjoeblack dude, from where do you import these shitty ideas?

I am male and my major was in international relations (arts faculty). My sister is a doctor. Can you see how gross and over generalized position you hold?

Perhaps you should get an arts degree on women and gender studies to get some accurate ideas on feminism to save yourself from you bastardized, toxic and deluded view on feminism.

Your biases are not in your fact, they are on how you interpret them. If you feel so victim as male, start a movement for male rights but do not come from the place of  wounded ego on feminism.  

I think he meant that here are roles that woman study more and are interested into and there are roles that men are more interested into.

 

[Javfly33]

On 8/1/2020 at 8:02 PM, Serotoninluv said:

You are conflating oppression dynamics, which's creates a distortion.

Oppression involves a power dynamic in which a dominant group treats an subordinate group unjustly. By definition, women do not oppress men. Men have been the dominant group that have oppressed women. This can be extremely difficult for the dominant group to recognize and accept. They will create all sorts of twist to avoid seeing this, such as “Well we have it hard to. Or what about. . . “. Or creating false equivalencies. This isn’t just with gender. In the US, white is the dominant group that has oppressed blacks and many white people create all sorts of stories to avoid seeing this: “white people have it hard too. What about reverse racism”. 

Of course everyone in the dominant group doesn't live a life of unicorns, rainbows and cheese puffs. Members of a dominant group often have severe challenges, in particular to their survival. Slave owners had serious survival challenges and many were severely injured and killed in war. Yet this does not nullify or equalize the oppressive power dynamic between slave owner and slave. 

Your example of war oppression is not  gender oppression. Women are not oppressing men through war. It is a different oppression dynamic. In this dynamic the rich and powerful are the dominant group oppressing the poor without power. Billionaires and senators do not go to war or send their kids to war. Lower / middle class men are disproportionately affected. Wealthy powerful men are sending lower / middle class men to war. Women are not oppressing men by sending them to war. And men are not oppressing women by sending them to war. Men oppress women through other means. 

Imo, wealthy oppression of the low/ middle class is important to address, including the disproportionate oppression of men in war. Yet this oppression dynamic goes way beyond war. White, wealthy men oppress the lower/middle class in many different ways.  I like that Bernie Sanders and AOC want to address this issue. . . Yet, men oppressing women is a different power dynamic. This oppression is also important to address and it’s nice to see politicians like Bernie and AOC wanting to address it. 

Yet conflating class and gender oppression muddies the waters and makes it more difficult deal with either oppression dynamic. It would be like saying that both slaves and slave owners fighting in the civil war were oppressed. Without distinctions, this frame doesn’t allow us to address each form of oppression. This allows the status quo to continue and allows the dominant group to continue its oppressive behavior. 

Imagine male soldiers oppressing women through physical and sexual abuse. When calked on this, the males reply “Well, we are being oppressed too because we are poor involuntary soldiers that have to fight in war”. This conflated frame doesn’t help either injustice. 

But you haven´t really thought why really men are being sent to war. Is not because of coincidence.

Withouth the gender identity that society constructed for males , it couldn´t have been possible to justify why only men go to war. This is the same as withouth the gender identity that society constructed for females , couln´t have been possible to justify why women couldn´t vote, and therefore it couldn´t be possible to accept that as normal. 

The "beliefs" society constructed that I am talking about is of the man being the gender that tolerates more brutality and violence, that is a "brute". And therefore is the one who should be sent to war, get way less empathy in violence situations, and get longer life prison sentences (yeah, keeps happening in 2020) .

The construction of this narrative has been documented in plenty of history books: this "fact" have been used constantly to motivate and accept males to go to war and in general all sorts of dehumanization and toleration of brutality. This is clearly gender identity.

@Serotoninluv

Therefore I can´t see how this is not "gender" oppresion. How is this different to the gender female beliefs that have permitted that society has seen normal to oppress women? I am truly curious how would you see this different.

And by the way, if you are going to tell me that is not gender oppresion because "but males do it to other males", inquiry how would you feel if i told you in regards to violence/murder in ghetto usa boroughs "but black people do it to other black people".

Edited January 10, 2020 by Javfly33

[Annoynymous]

5 hours ago, purerogue said:

I think he meant that here are roles that woman study more and are interested into and there are roles that men are more interested into.

 

@purerogue Not True.

[purerogue]

9 minutes ago, Annoynymous said:

@purerogue Not True.

Yes, not true , everything is equally divided.

[ravlondon]

On 18/11/2019 at 2:32 AM, Leo Gura said:

Rape and pilage is self-defeating because karma is a bitch. You rape long enough, someone you love will get raped. And that will make you rethink rape.

How does that work? I'm pretty sure that that won't automatically happen to someone who committed an action.

[Ananta]

3 hours ago, ravlondon said:

How does that work? I'm pretty sure that that won't automatically happen to someone who committed an action.

Rebirth/reincarnation.... karma follows.

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, ravlondon said:

How does that work? I'm pretty sure that that won't automatically happen to someone who committed an action.

You're thinking about it in too limited a manner. It doesn't have to be immediate and direct.

If you shit in a public pool, the shit will eventually come back to you because you'll be swimming around in it for a long time. That doesn't mean it will come back within 5 minutes.

Right now your logic is: "Well... the pool is quite large, so if I shit in the northwest corner but I swim in the southeast corner, chances of it coming back to me are low so maybe I can get away with it."

[Moreira]

On 21/12/2019 at 10:34 PM, Preety_India said:

Women are not trying to beat men. A woman needs financial independence. It's absolutely important for her. That in no way means she is trying to defeat the man. I have no idea why you think that. 

Women need a job just as much as a man needs. Why should it be otherwise. This does not degrade her feminine essence in any way.. 

In your mom's case I can completely understand that she might have wanted a wonderful person in her life to share her struggles and take pressure off her, but it's kinda unrealistic to expect that. There is no knight in shining armor kind of a guy who wants to rescue a woman from all her troubles and take care of her emotional and security needs. The word here is "willing" that you have used here 

Most men are not willing or they are willing only for some time. Do you think that if you were offered money to sit on the couch then you would say no. Absolutely not. Nobody will.. A woman is very lucky to find a man who is wonderful and kind. But it's not always a story with a happy ending. She has to find her own way. 

Now the toxic part of feminism. It is true that women need independence so they can survive on their own two feet. But feminism is not all rosy. There are parts in it which are toxic. Like I have seen women in higher positions wielding their power to demean and destroy people. 

My boss at work is a female. And I have encountered a lot of misuse of power and abuse. She fired an employee simply because they didn't get along well, she was a hard working girl and we had become good friends but the boss was sorta jealous of her and wanted to rid of her. This is where feminism gets toxic. 

Feminism is not inherently toxic. Because it was meant to empower women and help them with their survival, needs and ambition..

But a lot of women exploit feminism. A very good example of this is seen in divorce cases especially in the West where the woman strips the man naked of any financial asset and sometimes even denies the man the right to see his children. My ex boyfriend who was an American had this problem. His ex wouldn't allow him to see his own child. Its ridiculous. His mom sent him to a cult where he was exploited and abused. He was raised without a dad because his mom did not think that a man was needed around her kids. Now you see? His mom and ex made his life unbearable to the point where he was suicidal. That made him abusive to me in return because he started despising women as a result of his past and I had to suffer the brunt of his hate of women. But his hate is reasonable because he was a good guy, he was great at school but the women in his life ruined him. This is where feminism gets toxic. When a woman gets disproportionate amount of power and she can do whatever she wants for her family, children etc. Her decisions have no supervision or approval. And if she ever gets criticized she is quick to pull out the woman card. 

Feminism becomes toxic when a woman thinks she can never go wrong and when she is never subjected to scrutiny and when she is never held accountable for her bad decisions and choices. When she never has to pay or get punished for wrecking lives but let go with a slap on the wrist just because she is a woman. 

Feminism becomes toxic when a woman is not treated as a normal human being capable of flaws and failings, but put on a pedestal and treated like a goddess. 

I have seen both good and bad sides of feminism. It's like a double edged sword. The good side is when a woman is given support so she can survive on her own when she is empowered to Iive her life with confidence, when she given tools and resources and opportunities so that she can achieve her dreams and ambitions, when she is offered help in distress so she quits abusive dependent relationships and finds her survival. 

The bad side is when she uses her power to control and dominate other's lives, when she makes decisions that are never objected or questioned, when she assumes unquestioned authority and nobody can find her wrong because she is a woman. 

 

 

 

Observe nature and tell me species where the female lives independent of the family.

No. Every animal lives in families together, collect resources together, protect each others and have babies. 

Never observed a female having a role like a job for having personal remuneration , but their roles are based on feeding and protecting their babies.

Financial independence is creating selfish women. And women as emotional beings get lost into hedonism ignoring her sacred role of being mother.

 

 

[mandyjw]

Women will always be the weaker sex when value is judged from a survival standpoint. If you focus so much on survival and neglect the emotional and spiritual realm, there is no will to live anymore. You are programmed this way because you not here just to survive. 

The sacred role of a woman is much more all encompassing than being a mother. There's a reason why women are sexy and less utilitarian than men. The feminine side represents being in touch with joy, desire, beauty, sensuality, caring, feeling and inspire men to share that with them. Unfortunately if survival needs are not met, or if the mind is perpetualy stuck in a survival fear loop in a man or a woman, these traits cannot come out and depression or even violence is the result. 

Of course these two opposites between practical and impractical fun only exist within us. Men and women are just symbolic or representational of one more than another only because we appear to exist with in a game of survival. If you can be in touch with and integrate both you can play your role as naturally as the unique balance is for you comfortably without needing the opposite sex to act a certain way. 

There is always going to be a power game and suffering when one identified with rather than appreciative of their own unique balance of being in this world. 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by mandyjw

[ravlondon]

There are some aspects of Feminism that were expressed to me recently that make a lot of sense. Sexism is like racism in the modern day, it is carried through from historical oppression and you won't see it till the nuances of it's impacts until they are explained to you and you start to see it conceptually.

[Preety_India]

1 hour ago, Moreira said:

Observe nature and tell me species where the female lives independent of the family.

No. Every animal lives in families together, collect resources together, protect each others and have babies. 

Never observed a female having a role like a job for having personal remuneration , but their roles are based on feeding and protecting their babies.

Financial independence is creating selfish women. And women as emotional beings get lost into hedonism ignoring her sacred role of being mother.

 

 

It's all a power game, doesn't matter man or woman. Give disproportionate to men and you will have toxic patriarchy where men will exploit women and oppress them. 

Similarly give disproportionate power to women, you will get toxic feminism where women will exploit their powers to dehumanize men and breach their rights. 

It works both ways. 

Evil exists in both. Women are just as capable of evil as much as men are. 

And coming to survival. Survival has to be ensured for both gender. Because anyone who is pressed too much for survival becomes desperate and becomes psychopathic. This is animal nature. Survival is every thing. Try making people desperate for survival and their evil side comes out. 

In spirituality we want to be free from survival but it's not easy. 

The best solution to the gender problem is to have a gender neutral society that subdues the arrogant sociopathic side of men and tackles victim mentality of women and balances gender power struggles to create a smooth dynamic and helps create men and women who are healthy less toxic and community oriented.