If I see some traits of Feminism as a threat or unfair is because I´m biased?

[Javfly33]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, men are not being oppressed. The ego just perceives equalizing as oppression because a self-biased mind doesn't see a difference.

Then what would you call it to the fact that in several countries only men are forced to go to war ?

Colombia´s Example : https://www.ejercito.mil.co/servicio_ciudadano/preguntas_frecuentes/quienes_estan_obligacion_definir_334204_334204&c

Another one and this is from your natal country  ..Only men can legally be sentenced to life-setence in prison: http://www.russian-criminal-code.com/PartI/SectionIII/Chapter9.html

See, there´s a couple example of a pretty nasty things (war, prison) in where men are "oppresed" and not women. But it´s also true that in this countries women are more oppresed than Europe´s or America society. It just goes both ways as far as how intense the Patriarchy status has any given country. Usually men are less priviliged in abstaining from pain and violence, and women are less priviliged in enjoying freedom and status. The Patriarchy has always fucked intensely both genders for the good life of the 1% (Royalty, or whatever social priviliged social ground was present depeding on the era)

However, I still think that women have been more hurt and oppresed by the Patriarchy through all history than men. But that´s just because I value more freedom than pain or fear. Probably other people will value more safety than been forced to experience calamities and would have choose to be born a women in almost any era of human history.

I completely agree in your previous post about society Both men and women are puppets of larger evolutionary forces which drive the entire universe towards greater consciousness and love. I just think we should give more shout out to men´s rights, not because women´s probably need more attention and women´s right are less, which I think, but because in this sense much of the anti-feminism men will start going more pro-feminist. 

You have to realize that much of the males nowdays which support feminist don´t do it from a consciouss perspective of giving less importance to their male ego and realizing that society is going towards the destruction of very defined indentities and boundaries, but rather because of being identified with leftist ideology and lacking fundamental awareness about some men´s inequalities through history and still present nowdays. If they did they probably wouldn´t be so supportive of some feminism. The same goes for a lot of women, they are pro-feminist due to their self-bias of being a women, and not because they are consciouss enough to realize how much of their "female identity" is a society construct and not their own nature.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Javfly33

[Farnaby]

IMO the problem is making this a "us vs. them" thing, instead of choosing a broader perspective looking for win-win situations.

I know many feminists have this more inclusive perspective, but it's also undeniable that recently people with a confrontative attitude, with lots of unhealed trauma, etc., are gaining power and promoting things that IMO only create more separation. 

The premise is that if you behave correctly and empathetically, you won't have any trouble. That's a nice thing to say but not always how it turns out, because as humans we project and hurt others when we're hurt.

Many feminists argue that if you do things correctly, you don't have to worry about being accused of abuse, etc. And I like to think that's generally true. But we can't forget that relationships can be toxic and you can't completely rely and trust that you won't get into trouble.

In my country they want to pass a law where only an explicit consent is valid before a sexual relationship. What does that even mean? Do we have to sign a contract before having sex? Or maybe ask every 5 minutes if she's still ok with it? I think it's obvious how many problems this can create and how unspontaneous that would make sex. 

Of course I think that if you have some basic empathy, you know when the other person wants to have sex with you and when not, but can you really be sure every woman on the planet is conscious enough to not act out and falsely accuse you? 

I think these issues have to be approached in a way that considers all these factors, in order to protect both women and men. 

[Parththakkar12]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Rather than seeing all this as a fight for rights, see it as an expansion of consciousness, love, and self-identity.

I'm sure that's possible to do. Can you tell me how can I see the following as an expansion of consciousness, love and self-identity :

 Everyone is basically calling masculinity toxic, i.e. being a man is a bad thing now. Aggression is bad/dangerous, stating the facts is mansplaining, power/authority is oppressive, competition is sexism, women can do everything men can do so men have no value, etc. All of this is circle-jerked among feminists. The explanation is 'No we're not anti-male, we just make an enemy of everything that is masculine!'

These things make me conclude that it's an all-out war on men for women's rights. It's not oppression per se, but it's very very concerning and definitely mistaken. It results in men having to suppress their masculinity and it has vastly negative implications on our emotional health. Now before someone says 'Men's emotional health is not important cuz they're the oppressors!!! Men should die!!', we wouldn't get the same response if we put women's emotional health there. This is collective emotional abuse and humiliation and it gets trivialized mercilessly. Very disrespectful towards men.

Also, how does making an enemy of men for being men help you get women's rights, let alone expand consciousness and love?

Edited January 7, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Eph75]

7 hours ago, Arcangelo said:

There's already a men rights movement. Why? Because men already feel they are being oppressed.

 

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, men are not being oppressed. The ego just perceives equalizing as oppression because a self-biased mind doesn't see a difference.

 

Just because women are generally speaking the oppressed gender, doesn't automatically mean that there are no men that are oppressed in some kind of situation/way. Some cases where women have the "upper hand" have already been mentioned here.

Anywho, The Red Pill is an interesting documentary related to that subject.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3686998/

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Eph75

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

hen what would you call it to the fact that in several countries only men are forced to go to war ?

Just let it go.

Men and women do not have the same responsibilities.

When men start carrying babies in their bellies, maybe then you can make a case that wome  should be drafted too.

7 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Everyone is basically calling masculinity toxic, i.e. being a man is a bad thing now. Aggression is bad/dangerous, stating the facts is mansplaining, power/authority is oppressive, competition is sexism, women can do everything men can do so men have no value, etc. All of this is circle-jerked among feminists

Almost no one is saying that. That is your sloppy misunderstanding and strawmanning of feminism.

It's your circle jerk because you have not bothered to study any serious feminist literature. You are stuck in an echo-chamber of Red Pill like ideology. The more you listen to that garbage the more you will feel right.

[tenta]

6 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Everyone is basically calling masculinity toxic, i.e. being a man is a bad thing now. Aggression is bad/dangerous, stating the facts is mansplaining, power/authority is oppressive, competition is sexism, women can do everything men can do so men have no value, etc. All of this is circle-jerked among feminists. The explanation is 'No we're not anti-male, we just make an enemy of everything that is masculine!'

 

So is everyone saying this or is this just feminist rhetoric? It's more nuanced than a lot of people saying "competition is sexism"

[Parththakkar12]

I'm not talking about the fight for women's rights per se. The literature you're directing me to will talk about that, and I get that. What I am talking about, though, is the open hostility towards men which happens under the name of feminism.

https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/white-men-are-bad-even-six-year-old-tells-me-so

https://quillette.com/2018/08/15/why-its-not-ok-to-hate-men/

https://gen.medium.com/why-do-some-men-hurt-women-b6a8e97f872b

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/13/feminists-do-not-hate-men

https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/08/ironic-misandry-why-feminists-joke-about-drinking-male-tears-and-banning-all-men.html

https://medium.com/humungus/should-we-stop-saying-men-are-trash-684ec1357440

https://www.iol.co.za/capetimes/opinion/why-all-men-are-trash-and-need-to-take-responsibility-for-gender-based-violence-32326101

Slander works!

I've seen dozens upon dozens of such articles!

The only reason I'm still having this conversation is to know why are you defending such behavior? Why does this stuff get swept under the rug or rationalized away?

Edited January 7, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I've seen dozens upon dozens of such articles!

The only reason I'm still having this conversation is to know why are you defending such behavior? Why does this stuff get swept under the rug or rationalized away?

I just don't take such positions seriously. I don't know any serious person who believes or advocates "men are trash" or some such. That's not what feminism is about. A quality feminist understands the value and importance of masculinity and men.

You can find all kinds of nonsense on the internet. That doesn't mean it represents what feminism is about. There are fringe people in every social movement who spout crazy nonsense. To cherrypick those fringe ideas and make them representative of the entire movement is intellectually dishonest and shows a lack of nuance and lack of understanding how movements work.

By your logic we can demonize all of science as long as I can find a few articles written by some fringe scientists about how black people are genetically inferior to white people. But it would be absurd to use such fringe examples as representative of science as a whole.

[Parththakkar12]

There's reasons for the popularity of such statements and that it's okay to be public about your hatred for men, getting overwhelming support for that! There's shadows which don't show those reasons.

This isn't what feminism represents, right? I want this to be clear because there's cultural phenomena doing this stuff in the name of feminism.

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I just don't take such positions seriously. I don't know any serious person who believes or advocates "men are trash" or some such. That's not what feminism is about. A quality feminist understands the value and importance of masculinity and men.

Ah okay gotcha. Makes sense. The demonization of masculinity in the name of feminism runs pretty deep though. I shared a Teal video which talks about the Castration Dynamic which explains this.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Leo Gura]

@Parththakkar12 Such things don't even warrant an response or a defense.

The reason your examples seem popular is because men's rights groups and conservative groups have waged a PR war against feminism by purposefully strawmanning and demonized it. This is all part of their denial and collective ego backlash against integrating what feminism brings to the table.

Demonization of feminism, progressivism, and socialism is very popular on YT and in right-wing circles. It's a cottage industry. People make entire careers of it -- such as Jordan Peterson. But really his positions are so ignorant that they do not even warrant serious intellectual engagement. It it an insult to a true intellectual to have to defend against such right-wing ignorance.

[Parththakkar12]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@Parththakkar12 Such things don't even warrant an response or a defense.

The reason your examples seem popular is because men's rights groups and conservative groups have waged a PR war against feminism by purposefully strawmanning and demonized it. This is all part of their denial and collective ego backlash against integrating what feminism brings to the table.

Ohhh!!! I didn't think about that. The PR war can work cuz they're triggered, so it's easy to make it seem that they're talking out of their ass. Makes sense.

[Parththakkar12]

In that case, according to a quality feminist, which one is the problem : Men having male privilege, or men misusing it? Can a man cease to have male privilege if the whole issue of unequal representation/unequal power gets resolved?

[purerogue]

I am not sure why you make 2 sides, there are is allot of bs going from new feminism movements , just as there are from red pill and similar things. 

Leo seems to be so deep into Left that he can't see his own bias. 

[tsuki]

I wonder how many anti-feminists here are in a happy, loving, commited, long-term relationship with a woman.
Our own misogyny is the thing that prevents us from:

1. establishing a trusting, fulfilling, relationship with our partner
2. deepening our sensitivity, compassion and empathy,
3. connecting with the source of our own feminine energy that will allow us to love ourselves.
   Did you get that? Maybe you don't need another person to love you and show you affection? Hmm?

Imagine being hurt, unable to express your anger and frustration because you are weaker than your oppressor.
You can't even properly admit to yourself that this is how you feel because you can't leave that person.
These feelings get repressed, sour you, make you bitter, resentful and unstable. Would you not seek the opportunity to express them? Maybe that's what our traumatized mothers did when they were raising us? What if "BE A MAN!" is a lie that covers abuse?

Instead of arguing your guts out, look at your relationship with your mother.

Edited January 8, 2020 by tsuki

[purerogue]

Maybe look at your relationships with father. 

[tsuki]

11 minutes ago, purerogue said:

Maybe look at your relationships with father. 

I do, actually.

[CreamCat]

Feminism belongs to Green. Green's problems cannot be answered to by Green or below in the same way that Orange's problems cannot be solved by Orange.

At your level of consciousness, any attempt to grasp feminism would be futile because you won't ever reach a satisfactory answer until you grow past Green.

I guess Solid Yellow would start creating solutions to feminism's and Green's problems. Solid Turquoise could properly tackle Green and below head on. Proper Coral would be able to handle them without too much hassle. Teal is yet another mind-fuckery.

Stop haggling with feminism at your level of consciousness. It's futile. Focus on growing while enforcing your boundaries.

For now, it's beyond you.

Quote

Albert Einstein - No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by CreamCat

[Javfly33]

23 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Just let it go.

Men and women do not have the same responsibilities.

When men start carrying babies in their bellies, maybe then you can make a case that wome  should be drafted too.

 

You are exactly right, men and women do not have the same responsibilities,  and particularly because that exact reason, both men and women are oppresed in different ways. 

War, normalization of violence and intense dehumanization towards males it´s a pretty good example of "oppresion" to a only a particular gender because of certain beliefs (or facts) that the gender has about. Obviously women suffer the same fate. That it´s worse or better I´m not going to argue. As I said being born a women has significant disadvantages in any era of history but so does being born a man. Is whether what perks and cons what you prefer.

Only focusing in one gender and calling the people we talk about men´s right  "anti-feminism" for me it´s not consciouss nor empathic towards the whole population. But again, I´m a male, i could be self-biased.

[Forestluv]

56 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

both men and women are oppresed in different ways. 

War, normalization of violence and intense dehumanization towards males it´s a pretty good example of "oppresion"

You are conflating oppression dynamics, which's creates a distortion.

Oppression involves a power dynamic in which a dominant group treats an subordinate group unjustly. By definition, women do not oppress men. Men have been the dominant group that have oppressed women. This can be extremely difficult for the dominant group to recognize and accept. They will create all sorts of twist to avoid seeing this, such as “Well we have it hard to. Or what about. . . “. Or creating false equivalencies. This isn’t just with gender. In the US, white is the dominant group that has oppressed blacks and many white people create all sorts of stories to avoid seeing this: “white people have it hard too. What about reverse racism”. 

Of course everyone in the dominant group doesn't live a life of unicorns, rainbows and cheese puffs. Members of a dominant group often have severe challenges, in particular to their survival. Slave owners had serious survival challenges and many were severely injured and killed in war. Yet this does not nullify or equalize the oppressive power dynamic between slave owner and slave. 

Your example of war oppression is not  gender oppression. Women are not oppressing men through war. It is a different oppression dynamic. In this dynamic the rich and powerful are the dominant group oppressing the poor without power. Billionaires and senators do not go to war or send their kids to war. Lower / middle class men are disproportionately affected. Wealthy powerful men are sending lower / middle class men to war. Women are not oppressing men by sending them to war. And men are not oppressing women by sending them to war. Men oppress women through other means. 

Imo, wealthy oppression of the low/ middle class is important to address, including the disproportionate oppression of men in war. Yet this oppression dynamic goes way beyond war. White, wealthy men oppress the lower/middle class in many different ways.  I like that Bernie Sanders and AOC want to address this issue. . . Yet, men oppressing women is a different power dynamic. This oppression is also important to address and it’s nice to see politicians like Bernie and AOC wanting to address it. 

Yet conflating class and gender oppression muddies the waters and makes it more difficult deal with either oppression dynamic. It would be like saying that both slaves and slave owners fighting in the civil war were oppressed. Without distinctions, this frame doesn’t allow us to address each form of oppression. This allows the status quo to continue and allows the dominant group to continue its oppressive behavior. 

Imagine male soldiers oppressing women through physical and sexual abuse. When calked on this, the males reply “Well, we are being oppressed too because we are poor involuntary soldiers that have to fight in war”. This conflated frame doesn’t help either injustice. 

[Parththakkar12]

To all the non-feminists here, it's okay to be a 'sexist male pig who's lesser conscious'! I'm integrating my inner 'sexist male pig' and I invite you to do the same. It doesn't make you a bad person objectively speaking (there is no objective bad), in fact it's self-loving and self-accepting to do so.

Being a feminist doesn't make you a better person, in fact there is no absolute good/bad in the context of people! Maybe it's more conscious (or woke), but we don't control how conscious we are now, do we? Being more conscious also doesn't make you a better person.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Parththakkar12