If I see some traits of Feminism as a threat or unfair is because I´m biased?

[Alyosha]

5 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

No problem,  but women are sometimes getting a bad rap. I'm very nice irl to ppl. I got all the ppl I work with a Christmas gift for example. One lady who works for me was so surprised and happy, she came to me crying and hugged me. I loved it.?

You seem like a very sweet person. I admire that. I admit that I am trying to get past my biases, and it is taking some work. 

[Ananta]

1 minute ago, Alyosha said:

You seem like a very sweet person. I admire that. I admit that I am trying to get past my biases, and it is taking some work. 

Ty,  no problem, it takes time I suppose. ❤

We aren't all bad?

[Alyosha]

4 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

Ty,  no problem, it takes time I suppose. ❤

We aren't all bad?

And thus I'm realizing that I must search different places to see this in person. A big part of my bias has been my own patterns. It still stings when I am reminded of my past suffering with women though. All in due time.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Alyosha

[Ananta]

1 minute ago, Alyosha said:

And thus I'm realizing that I must search different places to see this in person. A big part of my bias has been my own patterns. It still stings when I am reminded of my past suffering with women though. All in due time.

I will admit I quit my last job, a year ago, that I had for 7 yrs because of  a female boss, but I'm not willing to say it is because she was female. More that "she" was just not a good person.

Not that all female boss's aren't good people. I actually have a female boss atm that is very sweet and we get along very well. 

[Ananta]

@Alyosha Question-Is your avatar pic a woman, if so, why?

[Alyosha]

3 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

@Alyosha Question-Is your avatar pic a woman, if so, why?

No, my avatar is the main character from The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky. His name is Alyosha hence my name. 

[Ananta]

1 minute ago, Alyosha said:

No, my avatar is the main character from The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky. His name is Alyosha hence my name. 

Oh, I see. I had no idea, thanks for putting me straight . 

 

[Parththakkar12]

On 12/27/2019 at 6:59 PM, Codrina said:

What concerns me though, is that this story of feminism is not really about equal rights, but about revenge. There is a lot of hatred, blaming and shaming towards men. It is more like an annihilation of men, making them look mean, stupid and useless.

The feminist propaganda I notice is not about how men and women share the same qualities, strengths and faults, but about how men hurt women through out history and how they are monsters and women are innocent victims.

Thank you for seeing this! Access to feminine power is right behind seeing this pattern collectively. We really need women to access their femininity and accept it. (same for men with masculinity!)

@Leo Gura It's very important that we don't get carried away in the riptide of narratives and see what's really going on. Of course feminism has been helpful in battling oppression of women, but we gotta save our asses when they come for revenge!

Another important thing we need to see about feminism today is that they're all about 'Women in the workforce, glass ceiling, wage gap' etc. but they don't really care about the issues of women on the ground-level. It's all about women in power!

I personally haven't seen a feminist campaign for paid maternity-leave/better healthcare for moms. The reason is, feminists promote what they're paid to promote. Feminists get corporate sponsorship to encourage more women to enter the work-force, STEM fields, law, etc! Corporations sponsor this to drive down the cost of labour, because now there's men and women working, whereas before it was mostly men. Now I'm not against allowing women to work, but this is a big point to note.

In short, it's a big political game which doesn't have a lot to do with day-to-day lives. Corporate lobbying and the media, of course, is a huge part of this brainwashing. It's not all bad, but it's not as Stage-Green noble-intentioned as one might expect.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Parththakkar12]

An important thing to note is that if this system crumbles and goes down because of its dysfunctions, the new system that'll be constructed, will be a new patriarchy! Only a more conscious one, in which women get to fully express their femininity. It's a good idea to have a vision for a new system and head in its direction if everyone has so many problems with this one.

It's important to note that the patriarchy has been pretty successful in physically surviving the human species for thousands upon thousands of years. All the dysfunctions in it are only because of lack of consciousness. Once those get resolved, I can see it working!

Edited January 4, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[silene]

"the patriarchy has been pretty successful in physically surviving the human species for thousands upon thousands of years. "

Stages red and blue, with some purple (although tribal societies can be matriarchal too).

"All the dysfunctions in it are only because of lack of consciousness" 

Transition to stage orange, as more highly skilled workers and middle class consumers need to be recruited - women are an obvious source.

"Once those get resolved, I can see it working!" 

Stage green will start to see women as of equal value, but with overcompensation (pendulum swinging too far), this should be resolved in stage yellow? Not patriarchy nor matriarchy but a new -archy  incorporating equal opportunities and meritocracy. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by silene

[Parththakkar12]

32 minutes ago, silene said:

Not patriarchy nor matriarchy but a new -archy  incorporating equal opportunities and meritocracy. 

First of all, the patriarchy is literally in our DNA! We've been bred and suckled on it and we literally don't know any other way of survival. The patriarchy includes all hierarchical and bureaucratic formal systems/institutions/structures which were designed by men, for men to work in and for the survival of everyone. It's a very masculine system by design! It was never meant for women to work in. I don't know how practical it is to come up with an entirely new way of survival from scratch. You'd also have to throw all of Spiral Dynamics out the window if we're starting from scratch, because this is the way the stages evolved.

Secondly, equality was never on the table to begin with. Men and women are fundamentally different with different niches in the system. 'Equality' is a Stage Orange/Green idealization which nobody ever really wanted! Even equality of opportunity is not something we really want. Men want the best possible opportunities for their niche while women want the same for their niche. There's a difference between equality and fairness. We care a lot more about fairness than equality. Our niches happen to overlap a lot in today's day and age, doesn't mean we're 'equal'.

A part of women's unique niche in the system is the ability to get pregnant and have babies. The survival of the whole species literally depends on this ability of women! The original religious prophets waaayy back when saw this and designed the system accordingly. Now of course there's outdated elements to it, but they were visionaries nonetheless who had their basics down!

We really need to get in touch with our masculinity/femininity (both men and women have masculinity and femininity) to clear up these confusions! I have a feeling that the way it'll actually play out is that the more conscious our society gets, the more this current system will get reformed to accommodate for the authentic niches of everyone.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[silene]

"patriarchy is literally in our DNA"

also matriarchy, some tribal cultures and families are matriarchal and matrilineal, even if it's a minority the DNA memory is still there available to be reactivated (if this type of thing is genetic, I'm not an expert). 

" It was never meant for women to work in. "
If that was the intention in the past, it's failing now. Women have been chipping away at it for centuries. Where I work (I'm a man in my 50s), I've had women colleagues and managers my whole working life. Many traditionally male professions like engineering and accountancy are actively promoting yin soft skills these days to complement the yang hard technical knowledge. I'm using yin & yang because I find feminine & masculine too similar cognitively to female & male; it's easier to see that we're all a mixture of yin & yang.

" I don't know how practical it is to come up with an entirely new way of survival from scratch."
Me too, I don't suggest it I'm not a revolutionary. More like a gradual evolution of the current systems to allow everyone the opportunity to develop themselves and their yin/yang balance to follow their dreams. Eg to keep up in my office workplace I need to work on my yin soft skills such as communication and empathy to be well rounded. I think we're agreed that this is all contextual; it's no good trying to force a society to develop if the people aren't ready. Also individuals who are at a very different stage from the bulk of their society will have a hard time fitting in! 

" Secondly, equality was never on the table to begin with. Men and women are fundamentally different with different niches in the system."
Apart from having babies, why shouldn't women aspire to whatever niches they want, and have equal opps access to training and job vacancies etc, unless there's a compelling reason why not?  I would put equal opps as the default position for fairness' sake unless there's a damn good reason to waive it. Although, whoever designs and polices 'the system' will do so according to their own philosophy and beliefs. The old religious authority underpinning the philosophy has largely crumbled away, and we currently have a mixture of rational science, plus whatever sociology you happen to prefer. We are in a stage of rapid theoretical change now. I suppose it's all up for grabs, systems and people don't have to be fixed for all eternity, but even if only a minority of people want to break out of gender stereotypes, why should we deliberately try to stop them?

" We really need to get in touch with our masculinity/femininity (both men and women have masculinity and femininity) to clear up these confusions! I have a feeling that the way it'll actually play out is that the more conscious our society gets, the more this current system will get reformed to accommodate for the authentic niches of everyone. " 
I suppose the system needs to optimise life for the individual as well as the community, and we're lucky if we live somewhere that the system is capable of being reformed without too much backlash. We need to get in touch with our whole selves - this masculine/feminine or yang/yin thing is really a very approximate and limited model, a broad brush to describe something far more complex.

Edited January 5, 2020 by silene
Spelling.

[Ananta]

8 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Of course feminism has been helpful in battling oppression of women, but we gotta save our asses when they come for revenge!

What!?

Lol ??

You afraid? 

I think you are spending much to much time worrying about nothing.

[Parththakkar12]

3 hours ago, Anna1 said:

Lol ??

You afraid?

Revenge-seeking has casualties which just happened to be in the firing line of the revenge-seeker. It causes needless damage which has to be protected against. Take a look at the Iraq war for example. When a particular section of society gets radicalized, it's an issue for the whole society!

3 hours ago, Anna1 said:

I think you are spending much to much time worrying about nothing.

That's like conservatives saying that 'Patriarchial oppression doesn't exist and feminists are spending too much time worrying about nothing! Why are you afraid of the patriarchy?' Maybe you don't notice the revenge-seeking elements of feminism. It's pretty well-known! To my eyes, 'seeking revenge for oppression' is a mirror image of what incels are doing. It's not at all respectable and it gives the movement a bad rap.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

That's like me saying that 'Patriarchial oppression doesn't exist and feminists are spending too much time worrying about nothing! Why are you afraid of the patriarchy?'

No it’s not. That is a false equivalency. 

To the privileged group, equality will appear as threatening and oppressive. 

In this case, gender equality will appear as threatening and oppressive to many men, especially men conditioned in patriarchal households and societies. One key to overcome this is being able to view things from others’ perspectives. For example, if you truly understood the experience and perspective of women striving for gender equality, your perspective would radically change. Yet this is precisely why the ego resists. The ego wants itself to survive - it doesn’t want to surrender it’s identity. 

[Parththakkar12]

9 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

equality was never on the table to begin with. Men and women are fundamentally different with different niches in the system. 'Equality' is a Stage Orange/Green idealization which nobody ever really wanted! Even equality of opportunity is not something we really want. Men want the best possible opportunities for their niche while women want the same for their niche. There's a difference between equality and fairness. We care a lot more about fairness than equality. Our niches happen to overlap a lot in today's day and age, doesn't mean we're 'equal'.

@Serotoninluv ^^ If we threaten each other's niches, that's a huge issue for both sides.

We understand that adults and children have different niches, don't we? Mixing these niches together would mean making child-labour legal and giving children the right to have sex! Imagine what'll happen if a group of 5 year olds starts protesting for the right to have sex with adults!

5 hours ago, silene said:

Apart from having babies, why shouldn't women aspire to whatever niches they want, and have equal opps access to training and job vacancies etc, unless there's a compelling reason why not?  I would put equal opps as the default position for fairness' sake unless there's a damn good reason to waive it. Although, whoever designs and polices 'the system' will do so according to their own philosophy and beliefs. The old religious authority underpinning the philosophy has largely crumbled away, and we currently have a mixture of rational science, plus whatever sociology you happen to prefer. We are in a stage of rapid theoretical change now. I suppose it's all up for grabs, systems and people don't have to be fixed for all eternity, but even if only a minority of people want to break out of gender stereotypes, why should we deliberately try to stop them?

You're right on every count! This conversation was never about 'should'-statements though.

When I use the word 'niche', it's not a one-size-fits-all for all men and all women. All I'm saying is that they're different and why.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

23 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@Serotoninluv ^^ If we threaten each other's niches, that's a huge issue for both sides.

The privileged group will often use “both sides-ism” to protect their privileged  position. The ego will not want to surrender it’s privileged position and will resist seeing inequalities. Ways to protect an unequal privilege is to avoid looking at the inequality as well as creating false equivalencies and justifications to maintain the status quo.

The vast majority of women simply want equality and to be treated in a decent manner free of oppression and harassment from men, yet this will appear as demanding and threatening to a privileged male who wants to maintain the status quo. 

[Parththakkar12]

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The privileged group will often use “both sides-ism” to protect their privileged  position. The ego will not want to surrender it’s privileged position and will resist seeing inequalities. Ways to protect an unequal privilege is to avoid looking at the inequality as well as creating false equivalencies and justifications to maintain the status quo.

That's a feminist projection. They're the ones making false equivalencies! But I guess mods gotta be politically correct... Are you being PC cuz you're a mod?

Again, what you're saying is true, just not relevant to this conversation.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

14 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

That's a feminist projection. They're the ones making false equivalencies! But I guess mods gotta be politically correct... Are you being PC cuz you're a mod?

No. You are perceiving through a particular lens. There can be various defense mechanisms protecting this lens. One defense is that others are being “PC” for their personal gain. Another defense is accusing others of what one’s self is doing. I stated other defenses above. I know all these defense mechanisms very well because I had to personally work through them over the last 20 years. Once one has worked through their own conditioned psychological dynamics, they are easy to spot in others. 

I was raised and conditioned in a traditional patriarchal household. De-conditioning takes work and is uncomfortable at times, yet it is so worth it. It is so liberating and allows much deeper and meaningful connections. I would never go back to how I was. 

Yet it looks like you are more interested in protecting a conditioned perspective than expanding and transcending it. That’s fine. Yet over time, you may get sick of it and realize how much it is limiting your potential. Or maybe not. My dad is in his 70s and still holds similar views to you. 

[Parththakkar12]

I know that men are privileged. Does that mean that any guy who wants to critically look at feminism is wrong? I never said the whole movement is full of shit, I'm just wanting to critically look at it.

There's fundamental problems with the whole notion of equality/privilege which I'm pointing to. There's also fundamental problems with the whole patriarchy-bashing thing. Do you see that?

50 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The vast majority of women simply want equality and to be treated in a decent manner free of oppression and harassment from men, yet this will appear as demanding and threatening to a privileged male who wants to maintain the status quo. 

I never said I want to maintain the status quo! Quite the opposite, in fact, I'm discussing actual potential change here. You tell me, how are we supposed to create actual lasting change without critically looking at the positions of people for and against it?

Edited January 5, 2020 by Parththakkar12