If I see some traits of Feminism as a threat or unfair is because I´m biased?

[Javfly33]

I want to hear some opinions on this matter. Over the last 2 years  Overall my view on feminism has changed from being quite opposed to the movement to overall support it.

However I still find myself some times feeling "injustice" or "threatened" to certain stuff. I want to know if this could still be part of my bias but I sometimes I just think some things are really not fair.

I´ll give an example. I just saw an ad asking me to firm a digital petition to the government of my country. (similar to Change.org). There were a lot of "bullet-points" about feminism that the ad was advertising to firm and let know to the government. But there was one that got my interest. That one was simply

"end the violence towards women"

Why as a man I should feel fair that i am regularly asked to sign petitions like "end the violence towards women" which in other words is just "put effort and resources/money to investigate why and how women are more victims in x situations and how we can remedy that" (which of course i dont think its a bad thing!)  but i never get asked to sign "end the violence towards men". I really don´t get it how that is fair. For example as a man I have more probabililty of being murdered or receive any kind of violence (except rape), surely a lot of money and investigation could look into why this happens and how reduce this statistics too. There´s also other scenarios where man are specially the victims apart from the usual violence : homelessness, jails, Labor Risks, Suicide. Why is fair there is almost no money and interest research in how to reduce this statistics and what man can be getting unfair to end in jails or get suicided more than women? From mainstream media In this case is indeed fair to attribute it to genetics and biology. To women problem is always because society. Of course with that dialectis is rational to try to fix everything unfair about women position in society, and ridiculous to fix it with men. 

And please don´t reply the Leo stuff "you are the one who is biased because blabla your survival because it turns out your a male". Yes but the same goes for women they also looking for their survival. Everybody is looking for their comfortabilty and survival. From that perspective women are also wrong for trying to fight for better salaries or positions because they are just looking "for their survival". That argument in this case i can´t see how it would make sense.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

@Javfly33 By your logic, why should you ever care about anyone but yourself?

In your self-centeredness you interpret the message of "stop violence against women" as somehow taking resources away from men. Yet this message doesn't mean to ignore men's issues.

You lack basic empathy for those who are not you.

You are like a white guy in the colonial South who walks by a poster that says, "Stop slavery now!" and you say to yourself, "But why should I care about the slaves when white poor folk are hungry on the streets? How is helping slaves fair?"

Stop thinking that helping to elevate others somehow takes away from you. This is a scarcity mindset.

By caring about women, you will increase your care for men. By helping animals you will also help the whole universe. << this is the proper attitude. Love is an unlimited resource, so you don't have to worry about holding it back.

[tenta]

 

[Hansu]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In your self-centeredness you interpret the message of "stop violence against women" as somehow taking resources away from men. Yet this message doesn't mean to ignore men's issues.

Holy shit. This just changed my whole view on politics

[Tanz]

@Javfly33 An easy way to look at things is realizing a majority of people suffer.  It doesn't matter what race or gender.  White men suffer, women suffer, many suffer.  When people suffer they have tunnel vision and it may seem that only they believe they are the ones that are suffering which is true on many levels. If you can expand your ability to LOVE it will make you suffer less and perhaps expand the other people you used to judge ability to become LOVE.  

Furthermore, a defense mechanism of the EGO when they hear people expressing their suffering is, well, I suffer too, or life is hard for me too rather than process it through compassion and perhaps find the commonalities you may have with that person.  

[CreamCat]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

In your self-centeredness you interpret the message of "stop violence against women" as somehow taking resources away from men. Yet this message doesn't mean to ignore men's issues.

You lack basic empathy for those who are not you.

You are like a white guy in the colonial South who walks by a poster that says, "Stop slavery now!" and you say to yourself, "But why should I care about the slaves when white poor folk are hungry on the streets? How is helping slaves fair?"

Stop thinking that helping to elevate others somehow takes away from you. This is a scarcity mindset.

In any society, men and women are roughly at the same level of consciousness because they are in the same society. For a man who perceives feminism as a threat to men, there is a woman who perceives MRA or benefits for (conscripted) combat soldiers(~99.9% of whom are men) as a threat to women. That's my observation. Your observation may differ.

Let's talk about a viking society for example. The male warriors of the viking society rape and plunder foreign citizens. You may think their men are bad and evil, but if you examine their women, they are no better than vikings. They are just as vile and treacherous. There is no angel. At least, we have progressed a lot since the viking age.

Scarcity mindset is still prevalent among the earth population. It's also prevalent among corporate managers.

Edited November 18, 2019 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

@CreamCat Yes, but when a viking woman gets raped by a viking man (and she will), she will start to rethink her support of viking rape and pilage culture. And so culture will evolve.

Rape and pilage is self-defeating because karma is a bitch. You rape long enough, someone you love will get raped. And that will make you rethink rape.

[CreamCat]

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, but when a viking woman gets raped by a viking man (and she will), she will start to rethink her support of viking rape and pilage culture. And so culture will evolve.

Yes, culture will evolve in the big picture. But, level of consciousness is not limited to support of rape. Level of consciousness pervades every aspect of life.

Let's talk about a population of extremely ugly people. Their ugliness comes from genetic defects. Men think their women are ugly. Women think their men are ugly. There's no point in pointing fingers at each other because the problem is not that the opposite sex is ugly, but the gene pool of the population is ugly. In a population full of people who have ugly mind, there is no point in pointing fingers at the opposite sex or the opposite something.

So, when the thread poster, a man, points fingers at his women for caring only about themselves, he should question whether he cares only about himself. The same for women. When a factory worker blames his CEO for greed, the worker should question his own greed, too. When the CEO thinks workers are lazy, the CEO should question one's own laziness. The problem is generally that the population is lazy and greedy.

I think lots of problems are in the population, not some malfunctioning parts of the population. People may misinterpret a population issue as other issues.

The solution to the thread poster's issue is to increase selflessness of the population. It's a long shot. It's going to take time.

Edited November 18, 2019 by CreamCat

[Parththakkar12]

On 11/17/2019 at 3:59 PM, Leo Gura said:

In your self-centeredness you interpret the message of "stop violence against women" as somehow taking resources away from men. Yet this message doesn't mean to ignore men's issues.

But who is looking at men's issues / the abuses of feminism towards men? Feminists sure as hell aren't doing that. There is a lot of man-hating and glorification of unhealthy female independence that goes on in those circles which gets rationalized away. To my eyes, (I'm taking care to be politically correct here) feminists say they're about equality, but really they're about out-manning and out-competing men and being female supremacists.

You can't tell men to not be self-centered when you yourself are being self-centered! (If you're a feminist woman)

This also makes me think that feminism is really both on Stage Orange (The independent careerwoman who don't need no man) and Stage Green (The compassionate ones who care about systemic issues of women). There's shadows in both these categories which we're overlooking.

Before moderating my comment, remember that this is a thread for critically looking at feminism.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Parththakkar12

[mandyjw]

53 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

But who is looking at men's issues / the abuses of feminism towards men? Feminists sure as hell aren't doing that. There is a lot of man-hating and glorification of unhealthy female independence that goes on in those circles which gets rationalized away. To my eyes, (I'm taking care to be politically correct here) feminists say they're about equality, but really they're about out-manning and out-competing men and being female supremacists.

You can't tell men to not be self-centered when you yourself are being self-centered! (If you're a feminist woman)

This also makes me think that feminism is really both on Stage Orange (The independent careerwoman who don't need no man) and Stage Green (The compassionate ones who care about systemic issues of women). There's shadows in both these categories which we're overlooking.

Before moderating my comment, remember that this is a thread for critically looking at feminism.

You are looking at the content, not the structure. In a stage orange culture, feminists must use stage orange tactics, they must speak the language that is being spoken to be heard. The transition from orange to green will not be painless. 

Remember this in all situations that seem unfair and it will give you peace, the degree to which you can love others in your interactions is based on your state of consciousness. Once that is seen anything but forgiveness and understanding is insanity. 

Women have been neglecting self-love for centuries, always putting others ahead of their own desires and needs, sometimes by choice and sometimes by force. There's bound to be a collective ego backlash from that, how could it be otherwise? It's not your fault or the men in your generation's fault, don't buy that if it seems like that is the message being spoken. Collective karma is a thing. It's always helps if you are suffering to zoom out and examine the big picture. 

[Parththakkar12]

Just now, mandyjw said:

You are looking at the content, not the structure. In a stage orange culture, feminists must use stage orange tactics, they must speak the language that is being spoken to be heard. The transition from orange to green will not be painless. 

Hmm.. Yeah I guess there's also stage yellow/turquoise feminists who understand how they attract oppression by focusing on it. I've seen this to be plain projection in more than a few cases! Not denying the existence of systemic issues here.

Patriarchy has been the way humanity has always survived. This won't change for a very long time. There's dysfunctions with the patriarchy, but this doesn't make the whole thing bad/wrong. Demonizing the patriarchy, which is what feminists do, is counter-productive. After men and women have equal rights in the law, it's impossible for men and women to become socially equal. This doesn't mean one side is better than the other, it just means that both sides have different roles to make the whole thing work.

If we're able to create a conscious patriarchy, feminism won't be needed. It's a short-term thing which serves only to raise the consciousness relative to gender roles, not demonizing them! I see a fundamental rejection of the femininity of women and the masculinity of men in feminists and this is counter-productive for it's purpose.

Just now, mandyjw said:

It's not your fault or the men in your generation's fault, don't buy that if it seems like that is the message being spoken.

Thank you for seeing that! Somebody is getting blamed though, it's probably the system as a whole.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Parththakkar12 said:

There is a lot of man-hating and glorification of unhealthy female independence that goes on in those circles which gets rationalized away. To my eyes, (I'm taking care to be politically correct here) feminists say they're about equality, but really they're about out-manning and out-competing men and being female supremacists.

I'm not saying you are wrong. It's more nuanced than right or wrong. . . 

We each have our own filter we perceive the world. As a man experiencing difficulties, it's natural to say "what about men experiencing difficulties?". There can be a filter that arises. Now, I would perceive reality through this filter. I'll notice and interpret women as being demanding, as wanting to out-man and out-compete me. I will see them as a threat to my well-being and a threat to a healthy society. As well, I will extrapolate and over-generalize - such that all women and feminists are like this. 

When I'm able to step outside of myself and put this personal filter aside, I see something very different. I see the oppression women undergo. I see their desire for equality very differently. I see how men often talk over women, dismiss women, and at times harass women. I can see a qualified woman getting passed over for a job promotion to a less qualified man. I'm open to asking women about their experience and learning from them. I'm able to imagine what life as a woman might be like. This perspective can be integrated with my previous perspective to give a more integrated, holistic perspective. I don't need to go to another extreme and say all women all angels and all men are devils. Rather, one can see and understand various perspectives from a meta view. 

[Parththakkar12]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

This perspective can be integrated with my previous perspective to give a more integrated, holistic perspective.

Okay. Suppose that you're the big boss of a company and you have a 3 candidates for a promotion spot, which is a leadership position. 2 are highly qualified women who don't have a lot of experience and one is a man. The man is lesser qualified, but more experienced and his temperament is more like an alpha-male 'I'm gonna call the shots' type. What's the percentage chance you'd choose the man over the women?

Leadership is an aspect of masculinity, not femininity! The aforementioned situation is more likely to happen than the other way round.

Competition with men is a losing game for women, generally speaking. If women really want empowerment, my suggestion would be that instead of trying to compete with men in the workforce, they get in touch with their divine feminine and embody that. They'd be able to attract a loving providing partner who'd make them feel safe and protected. In such a situation, they'd feel more in their element to express their creative ability. Then, the 'workplace sexism' would become a non-issue! (There's exceptions but this would be the general trend)

[mandyjw]

4 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I see a fundamental rejection of the femininity of women and the masculinity of men in feminists and this is counter-productive for it's purpose.

Thank you for seeing that! Somebody is getting blamed though, it's probably the system as a whole.

I believe in clearing the way for everyone to have equal access to do the things they want to do, but you are right that women themselves shame femininity itself, and this is a huge blind spot within the feminist movement. Again though, that's just the level of consciousness we are at. 

I would like to see society raise the value they give to care-giving jobs and paying more for them, rather than expecting that equality looks like having a 50/50 split of men and women in the field of engineering. In reality, more men are going to be drawn to engineering than women, and more women are going to want to work as caregivers than men. The reality is that people in a stage orange society are much more impressed with seeing a big building go up than having someone make their transition in life with excellent hospice care, so one job is paid really well and the other is volunteer. But the truth is, that many women still get "stuck" in unpaid caregiving jobs, whether caring for children because they can't afford or can't access daycare, or caring for an elderly parent. This is a huge responsibility put on women and it's mostly unappreciated and unseen. That often prevents women from having or exploring any kid of job they want. 

Plenty of women make fantastic engineers and CEOS and they should have every opportunity to do a job like that. But they still face many prejudices and that still needs to be addressed. Likewise plenty of men make amazing caregivers, and people are sometimes suspicious of men having caregiver jobs. That needs to be addressed too. 

[mandyjw]

9 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Leadership is an aspect of masculinity, not femininity! The aforementioned situation is more likely to happen than the other way round.

The quality of leadership is not specific to any gender. This is not true with humans nor with many animal species. Femininity, is after all a concept that is relative. It can never truly be defined in itself outside of culture. Don't forget that femininity is itself, content within a structure. 

 

[Forestluv]

@Parththakkar12 Why do you get to decide what traits count as leadership? Why doesn’t a woman get to decide the traits that make a good leader? . . . Why do you get to decide how women should behave in work environments? Why don’t women get to decide how you should act in a workplace?. . . 

I’ve worked in environments with the alpha male leader that calls the shots. This is not an effective leader, imo. I would say they suck as a leader. They are unable to relate to people on a human level and they create dominant / submissive atmospheres that are toxic. I worked in a lab for years with this type of alpha leader. Sure, he was able to make us productive - yet the work environment was toxic. There was an underlying current of resentment and conflict that was suppressed. It was really unhealthy. These men do not make good leaders, imo. These days, I serve on hiring committees and I would never advocate hiring this type of job candidate.

Confidence, assertiveness and decisiveness can be good leadership qualities in certain contexts. Yet these traits alone would be a weak leader. A good effective leader has these traits and more. They also have empathy, compassion, humility and good listening skills. They can take advice and constructive criticism from others. They are willing to share and give credit to others. They are not insecure boys hiding behind an alpha male facade. . . 

I lived in the city you live in and went to CU. It is a progressive place. Look around and observe. You are in a great environment to develop and grow.

[Arcangelo]

''If I see some traits of Feminism as a threat or unfair is because I´m biased?'' > No, it's real.

I do see some traits of feminism as a threat and unfair too.

You are not alone.

3 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

(I'm taking care to be politically correct here)

Me too. Everybody is a bit too sensitive nowadays. For example if i say some women this or a lot of women that i will get in trouble. If I say hi to a woman she can take it like sexual harassment and go to the police. Crazy times we are living in.

 

I really hope i didn't offend anyone with this post, I apologize in advance if I did. I cherish the privilege of being able to post at actualized.org

I like virtually interacting with other actualizers.

 

Peace

 

Arc

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Arcangelo said:

If I say hi to a woman she can take it like sexual harassment and go to the police.

You are old enough to be more mature than this. It’s disappointing to see a fellow man your age peddling this type of thing to younger men.

[Arcangelo]

I don't want to derail but i made a thread about this recently. I asked a girl her name and she told the security guards that i was harassing her. Never happened to me before.

True story, it affected me psychologically for days, still does. Being called a sexual harasser and having to talk with security guards about me not being a sexual harasser is no joke. It takes a toll on your psycho-spiritual well being.

What's funny is that she told me her name: Scarlett

 

 

Peace

 

Arc

[Forestluv]

@Arcangelo