Leo's Level of Consciousness and Your Own LOC

[mandyjw]

Reading that book caused a huge war within my mind, I'm glad I read it but, Leo's advice here in this thread is really, really important. You gotta get really good with paradoxes!  

Also Eckhart Tolle I believe is a misunderstood anomaly, as we all are... and so it gets very very tricky when you start talking about specific enlightened people because that's all imagination. 

The book particularly indulges the imagination so study it, get lost in it, then go back to you own experience as if you'd just read a particularly engrossing novel.

[Eu Sint]

How can one measure the level of consciousness, when everything is consciousness? Do the numbers come from outside the consciousness? Are they anything other than consciousness??

[Nickyy]

@LfcCharlie4 I think Leo is right on this, because I don't see the need to pass through brilliant thinkers to get to the now. Maybe I'm wrong and you really do need to become a sage like character and know all of these philosophical and spiritual systems before you give them up? 

 

[Nickyy]

35 minutes ago, Eu Sint said:

How can one measure the level of consciousness, when everything is consciousness? Do the numbers come from outside the consciousness? Are they anything other than consciousness??

Yeah, but people don't know that, so you can measure their level of wakefulness, if you like? 

But I don't think you have to actually really learn any of these mind strategies in order to be in the now.

My theory about spiral dynamics is that green is not a stage above orange, but green is actually oranges sibling. They are both the same level, are different branches of the same level. And that prolly explains why they hate each other so much lol 

Green is some sort of philosophical genetic dead end. Like some random mutation that took logical thinking too far into cloud cookoo land 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Nickyy

[LfcCharlie4]

@Nickyy No, you definitely don't Ramana or The Buddha or Jesus didn't do that, it is simply referring to how self realized you are. 

 

For example Einstein was a hugely intelligent man, but was he fully self realized? It's highly unlikely. 

 I wouldn't get too confused with the early stages of the map, it's more used to show depths of awakening if you like, but of course is just a guide. 

[LfcCharlie4]

@Eu Sint That's like saying Donald Trump and Ramana are at the same level of consciousness on a relative level. 

You're trying to speak in absolute terms when we are attempting to speak relatively. 

Yes, all there is the Self, Consciousness, The Absolute whatever you want to call it but look around the world, not everyone is as aware as that as everyone else, if we all were, society would look a LOT different. 

 

50 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Reading that book caused a huge war within my mind, I'm glad I read it but, Leo's advice here in this thread is really, really important. You gotta get really good with paradoxes!  

Also Eckhart Tolle I believe is a misunderstood anomaly, as we all are... and so it gets very very tricky when you start talking about specific enlightened people because that's all imagination. 

The book particularly indulges the imagination so study it, get lost in it, then go back to you own experience as if you'd just read a particularly engrossing novel.

Lol, I was Eckhart's number 1 fan before reading that book and thought he was as enlightened as one could be. So trust me initial reaction was that I hated it etc, it's common to have backlash like that, it was the same when I first ever heard of enlightenment. 

 Yeah, they've both admitted it's tricky without seeing someone face to face, however you can gauge rough ideas from listening to teachers. For example Eckhart talks predominantly about the Now, 'no self and no boundaries' which is common of those in the 600s. He's also an Enneagram type 9 hence his peaceful nature, which makes it impossible to hate him, but that doesn't mean he's fully realized. 

 I love Eckhart, The Power of Now was like the Bible to me for a while and it was my first opening into Non-Duality, although at the time I was just a 16 year old wondering why I felt depressed after being wildly happy all my life, but I am more thankful for that depression than anything else in my life now, funny how life works. 

[mandyjw]

9 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Lol, I was Eckhart's number 1 fan before reading that book and thought he was as enlightened as one could be. So trust me initial reaction was that I hated it etc, it's common to have backlash like that, it was the same when I first ever heard of enlightenment. 

 Yeah, they've both admitted it's tricky without seeing someone face to face, however you can gauge rough ideas from listening to teachers. For example Eckhart talks predominantly about the Now, 'no self and no boundaries' which is common of those in the 600s. He's also an Enneagram type 9 hence his peaceful nature, which makes it impossible to hate him, but that doesn't mean he's fully realized. 

 I love Eckhart, The Power of Now was like the Bible to me for a while and it was my first opening into Non-Duality, although at the time I was just a 16 year old wondering why I felt depressed after being wildly happy all my life, but I am more thankful for that depression than anything else in my life now, funny how life works. 

Me too.  You cannot judge a teacher based on what they speak about though. There's a reason why Eckhart reaches as many people as he does, why he is a super star of spirituality and made such a huge change in so many of us at the start of our journeys. He is a bridge. This is perfection. Should the bridge be judged as less important because it is not the land it connects? Whether he is conscious of more he doesn't speak about or not, we can't know. Whether Ramaji judged Eckhart using a filter of self bias, making the assumption that a teacher would only speak of the highest knowledge that he is aware of... or whether he used a metaphysical means of knowledge to judge this, we can't know. 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by mandyjw

[Leo Gura]

You do not know the degree of awakening of any human beings. Just keep that in mind. That is what is true for you. Anything else are beliefs you have picked up from hearsay or your own speculations.

You have no idea how awakened Ekhart Tolle is, or Ramaji is, or anyone. And even the notion that you could know is highly suspect.

Assigning numbers to teachers is a dangerous game.

It's extremely important that you admit to yourself that you don't really know these things. Otherwise you fall into a delusion of thinking you know something which you actually do not know.

If Ramaji's mind is corrupt, then his scale could be corrupt and you have no way of knowing that. You cannot just assume that his scale is accurate. To assume such a thing would violate the whole thrust of our work here.

FYI, Ramaji's numerical rating of me was immediately incorrect. He rated me too highly and wasn't aware he did so.

You cannot trust anyone in this work. No one! Not Ramaji, not Buddha, not Christ, not me.

[Inliytened1]

Its even deeper than this.  Non-duality is total Oneness.  So to be completely stabilized in non-duality is to be directly conscious pretty much at all times that you are alone as God.  That all of these teachers are projections of your mind.  That you are imagining them.

[LfcCharlie4]

@mandyjw of course, I am not shitting on Eckhart by any means of imagination, I loved him, and he is what the world needs right now as you say hence why he is the superstar of spirituality. 

I mean there’s other factors such as the Opera appearance etc, but there’s a reason that happened, and he deserves the incredibly success he has. 

[LfcCharlie4]

@Leo Gura of course, I don’t actually know anything, these are all just assumptions and ideas and concepts, LOC as a whole is a concept, I’m more than aware of that, they could be wrong, and very wrong.

 

Although you do agree there’s of course depths to awakening, and some teachers are more deeply awakened than others. 

 

im sorry to hear your experience with Ramaji wasn’t as good as you hoped, nobody is perfect, what LOC did he put you at btw out of interest, and did you receive RASA? 

Like you said nobody knows anything. 

[Nickyy]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You do not know the degree of awakening of any human beings. Just keep that in mind. That is what is true for you. Anything else are beliefs you have picked up from hearsay or your own speculations.

You have no idea how awakened Ekhart Tolle is, or Ramaji is, or anyone. And even the notion that you could know is highly suspect.

Assigning numbers to teachers is a dangerous game.

It's extremely important that you admit to yourself that you don't really know these things. Otherwise you fall into a delusion of thinking you know something which you actually do not know.

If Ramaji's mind is corrupt, then his scale could be corrupt and you have no way of knowing that. You cannot just assume that his scale is accurate. To assume such a thing would violate the whole thrust of our work here.

FYI, Ramaji's numerical rating of me was immediately incorrect. He rated me too highly and wasn't aware he did so.

You cannot trust anyone in this work. No one! Not Ramaji, not Buddha, not Christ, not me.

So what about spiral dynamics. Based in one man's research. 

But spiral dynamics is like the Bible round here . But it has it's flaws

[LfcCharlie4]

@Inliytened1 so is what your after complete merging into this oneness? 

[Inliytened1]

16 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@Inliytened1 so is what your after complete merging into this oneness? 

I'm not after it i AM alone.  As are you! Once you are conscious that you are alone would you start rating imaginary people in your dream?  Even to say that you will experience being the Buddha or Tolle (which you will) would be to rate yourself in some other infinite dimension happening simultaneously.  What would be the point?  Its all YOU. 

Its interesting entertainment, for its own sake.

[Hello from Russia]

I'd treat it just as a relative framework to judge how woke some people "feel". I found it's pretty useful to judge someone's level of "wokeness" in daily practical situations, it gives you a good foresight for your future interactions. Especially good for leaders. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Hello from Russia

[LfcCharlie4]

@Nickyy by the way I’m not trying to say this model is perfect or complete.

Its a good reference point imo, and you can clearly see the difference between certain teachers, but who knows all judgements could be wrong on certain teachers/ students. 

 

Only you can truly know your own existential experience. 

[LfcCharlie4]

@Inliytened1 all is the self, but that doesn’t mean you need to stop taking action in the world. 

Thats like saying, because absolutely everything is perfect why bother fixing the chaos in Syria, I’m using an extreme example, because it’s easy to use spirituality to bypass parts of life. 

The purpose of it, is to use as a personal reference in your journey, and to help you find suitable teachers for yourself and the stage you’re at. 

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@Inliytened1 all is the self, but that doesn’t mean you need to stop taking action in the world. 

Thats like saying, because absolutely everything is perfect why bother fixing the chaos in Syria, I’m using an extreme example, because it’s easy to use spirituality to bypass parts of life. 

The purpose of it, is to use as a personal reference in your journey, and to help you find suitable teachers for yourself and the stage you’re at. 

I understand that ❤?

As long as one is mindful of the Absolute as well.  The non-dual awareness in the background

You can use any system in duality to help you along but ultimately at a certain point it must be transcended.   

[LfcCharlie4]

@Inliytened1 I agree Leo has actually helped me a lot today. 

I think it’s a common symptom of where I’m at to fall “in love” with your Guru, hence it’s coming across I’m obsessed with this model, when in reality it is merely a tool and I need to transcend it. 

All I can do is speak of existential experience, and in the last 6 months this background of incredible peace has just been growing, I am delving deeper and deeper into the now, and quite frankly am loving life. I still have a LOT of inner work to do though, and life to get out there and live. Thank you @Leo Gura for helping me notice this  

[Leo Gura]

41 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

So what about spiral dynamics. Based in one man's research. 

But spiral dynamics is like the Bible round here . But it has it's flaws

Spiral Dynamics is not just based on one man's reaearch, and it's a complex model that doesn't assign people numerical values for awakening, and like I always say, you need to understand that it's relative and has its limits.

SD is much more robust than a linear numerical scale for nonduality.