Where Is Leo Wrong?

[whoareyou]

I been saying this for the past few years and will say it again:

Leo is trapped in chasing insights, intellectually trying to understand "reality". 

He thinks that he is getting deeper and deeper - while he is actually not getting anywhere, it's an illusion and a trap of the ego identity that he created for himself. In other words, he has a blind spot which would be very hard to see and to admit - it would mean that he wasted a lot of time and would invalidate a lot of his teachings.

When he booted Winterknight from the forum, he called his approach too "simplistic" and "reductionistic" - which is not surprising to see and where imo Leo is clearly wrong. As many have noted, an actual "awake" teacher would not have booted another teacher like that - but at least his opened many people's eyes who have previously have not seen these things.

[88888will88888]

Looking for objective wrongness is misunderstanding the teaching of nonduality

[Forestluv]

On 11/17/2019 at 8:14 AM, Commodent said:

He denies the value of materialism, in favor of non-dualism. Why not both?

Just another way of looking at it. . . 

Imagine you are a pianist teaching someone how to play the piano. You realize the person has a condition in which they are aware of their right hand, yet unaware of their left hand. They only want to use their right hand. . . What would be the best approach in this situation? Should we teach playing the piano with only a right hand? That doesn't seem like the best approach to me. . . Should we point to their right hand and explain the value of the right hand in playing the piano? Well, they already are aware of their right hand. The problem is that they are contracted within their right hand. . . We may ask "Why not show the value of both hands?". Ok, let's try that. We tell the student "There is value in both the left hand and right hand". The person then goes off into an analysis of left hand vs. right hand and all sorts of theory about left vs. right hand, evidence of left hand vs. right hand, the science of left hand vs. right hand etc. . . Well that didn't go over very well, because they are still not aware of their actual left hand. . . To me, it would be best to say "Look!! Your left hand!! Look at it. Right here and now. There is an actual left hand Here and Now". . . If they realize the actuality of their left hand, we can now explore the actual inter-relationship of left and right hand while playing the piano Here and Now. Then we can explore how left and right hand is actually both parts of the same body. . . Yet this is not possible if one does not realize the actuality of their left hand in direct experience Here and Now (not the theory of a left hand). 

The love is showing someone they have two hands that are One. The Beauty is the music we create.

[Inliytened1]

On 11/17/2019 at 7:14 AM, Commodent said:

 

He denies the value of materialism, in favor of non-dualism. Why not both?

 

Can you clarify what you mean?  The teachings here are that form is identical to formlessness and that form is beauty and creation.  To say it is imagination is simply to say that reality is a Mind, which it is.  

 

[Loving Radiance]

@Serotoninluv  Beautiful, thank you.

[Knock]

@Serotoninluv That was a fantastic analogy, thank you!  

[Richard Alpert]

Where is Leo wrong?

Nowadays pretty much everywhere, except storytelling and marketing.

[Consilience]

I think Leo’s approach to consciousness work feels a off. I am very appreciative that he opened up explaining that he no longer does formal spiritual practices such as meditation or Kriya yoga, in favor of psychedelics, but I think reliance on these substances is a limited approach. Perhaps its part of what he wants to discover/pioneer, which is that psychedelics alone can lead to awakening.

Yet here’s a crucial element Ive found missing with psychedelics: while they’re fantastic for providing insights, they are horrible for embodiment. They provide these amazing sometimes horrifying sometimes ecstatic states of consciousness that facilitate wisdom, insight, and the expansion of consciousness. But! Once the peak ends, it’s more or less over. Yes there are residual effects, and lessons to take away. I don’t want to undermine their power or utility for this work. But they aren’t, in and of themselves, powerful enough to create lasting effects in sober living.

How many times has Leo tripped? How many times have the individuals in this community tripped? Hell, Ive lost a mental count of how many times Ive tripped! And in my experience, these trips are only as useful as the work I put in while sober. If I dont take action to embody via mediation, yoga, sober contemplation, journalling, self actualizing without drugs, they feel pretty useless. 

Psychedelics dont help build my focus, calm my mind, build my equanimity, permanently increase awareness, or make me capable of facing hours upon hours of boredom. It’s one thing to face your physical death on a psychedelic. It’s another to face 10 days straight of doing nothing, and being so woke you dont suffer whatsoever from Boredom, boredom with a capital B so to speak. Being so woke that during those 10 does of absolute nothing, you’re joyful and completely fine. 

Just my 0.02. I have nothing but respect and appreciation for Leo though. He’s changed my life and Im glad he seems to be living his most authentic life. Plus I wanna know where the psychedelics only path leads! So thank you for pioneering Leo ??But for me, Ive realized psychedelics are only one piece of this work and a piece worth pursing yet not relying on.

[Inliytened1]

36 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Being so woke that during those 10 does of absolute nothing, you’re joyful and completely fine. 

 

 Nailed it! This is the very essence of embodiment.  It is a process of finding inner peace in Being post enlightenment.  And it often includes purifying one's self of their defilements.   I can't comment on pyschedelics because i have never taken any.   But i couldn't agree more that the continuation of spiritual practices can greatly help with this (mediation, yoga, etc).  Everyone's path is unique though.  And once you are woke I'm not sure how much more woke it can get you.  I am slacking on my own meditation lately.  But for me it does help in finding that inner peace in just being.   

Ultimately though it is your expansion of consciousness  that resulted from your enlightenment, and the continued process of going meta on the ego, that helps pave the way for you to align with and embody Truth for the remainder of your time as this finite being.

 

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

42 minutes ago, Consilience said:

I think Leo’s approach to consciousness work feels a off. I am very appreciative that he opened up explaining that he no longer does formal spiritual practices such as meditation or Kriya yoga, in favor of psychedelics, but I think reliance on these substances is a limited approach. Perhaps its part of what he wants to discover/pioneer, which is that psychedelics alone can lead to awakening.

Yet here’s a crucial element Ive found missing with psychedelics: while they’re fantastic for providing insights, they are horrible for embodiment. They provide these amazing sometimes horrifying sometimes ecstatic states of consciousness that facilitate wisdom, insight, and the expansion of consciousness. But! Once the peak ends, it’s more or less over. Yes there are residual effects, and lessons to take away. I don’t want to undermine their power or utility for this work. But they aren’t, in and of themselves, powerful enough to create lasting effects in sober living.

How many times has Leo tripped? How many times have the individuals in this community tripped? Hell, Ive lost a mental count of how many times Ive tripped! And in my experience, these trips are only as useful as the work I put in while sober. If I dont take action to embody via mediation, yoga, sober contemplation, journalling, self actualizing without drugs, they feel pretty useless. 

Psychedelics dont help build my focus, calm my mind, build my equanimity, permanently increase awareness, or make me capable of facing hours upon hours of boredom. It’s one thing to face your physical death on a psychedelic. It’s another to face 10 days straight of doing nothing, and being so woke you dont suffer whatsoever from Boredom, boredom with a capital B so to speak. Being so woke that during those 10 does of absolute nothing, you’re joyful and completely fine. 

Just my 0.02. I have nothing but respect and appreciation for Leo though. He’s changed my life and Im glad he seems to be living his most authentic life. Plus I wanna know where the psychedelics only path leads! So thank you for pioneering Leo ??But for me, Ive realized psychedelics are only one piece of this work and a piece worth pursing yet not relying on.

I disagree that they are horrible for embodiment. It depends how seriously you take the lessons learned in your trip and want to change your habits and how you want to approach life. Just like anything else, you could go to a seminar with excellent teachings and one person could really have a mature attitude about it and embody a lot of what they learned and the other person doesnt take it as seriously, doesnt have as much self control, ect and it goes in one ear makes a big difference at first and out the other.

Maybe you havent done the right psychedelics with the right dosages in the right set/setting. Or maybe they just arent for you. In which case Leo is directing you to do other practices.

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

Also, a lot of the anti psychedelic mindset stems from people expecting them to do the work for you. Thus "horrible for embodiment". Yes, the substance is going to have zero effect after it has left your body on your choice and effort to embody what you've learned. That is absurd, yet people still kind of expect this.

You are never going to get around putting in the effort yourself. As a catalyst though, psychedelics are extremely extremely powerful for the person who wants to learn and put the work in themselves. 

[Consilience]

11 minutes ago, TrynaBeTurquoise said:

I disagree that they are horrible for embodiment. It depends how seriously you take the lessons learned in your trip and want to change your habits and how you want to approach life. Just like anything else, you could go to a seminar with excellent teachings and one person could really have a mature attitude about it and embody a lot of what they learned and the other person doesnt take it as seriously, doesnt have as much self control, ect and it goes in one ear makes a big difference at first and out the other.

Maybe you havent done the right psychedelics with the right dosages in the right set/setting. Or maybe they just arent for you. In which case Leo is directing you to do other practices.

Perhaps you miss understand what I meant by embodiment. " It depends how seriously you take the lessons learned in your trip and want to change your habits and how you want to approach life." The taking seriously of the lessons is embodiment, which takes place outside of the trip. It takes work. But this work is usually in the form of things like meditation, self inquiry, yoga, journalling, and otherwise sober activities. Embodiment isn't done through taking more psychedelics. The psychedelics reveal the work that needs to be done, they don't replace the work. That's been my experience. So when Leo talks about ONLY doing psychedelics, it doesn't really seem to imply he's doing the other work needed to stabilize those peak experiences as actual, sober embodied truths. 

"Maybe you havent done the right psychedelics with the right dosages in the right set/setting. Or maybe they just arent for you. In which case Leo is directing you to do other practices." Perhaps this is so. I've only done LSD, NN-DMT, and Mushrooms. 

[Consilience]

3 minutes ago, TrynaBeTurquoise said:

Also, a lot of the anti psychedelic mindset stems from people expecting them to do the work for you. Thus "horrible for embodiment". Yes, the substance is going to have zero effect after it has left your body on your choice and effort to embody what you've learned. That is absurd, yet people still kind of expect this.

You are never going to get around putting in the effort yourself. As a catalyst though, psychedelics are extremely extremely powerful for the person who wants to learn and put the work in themselves. 

1) That post wasn't anti psychedelic

2) Expecting psychedelics to do the work for you seems to be what Leo is doing by forsaking all the other forms of consciousness work he's promoted in the past.
3) "You are never going to get around putting in the effort yourself. As a catalyst though, psychedelics are extremely extremely powerful for the person who wants to learn and put the work in themselves. " aka the psychedelic trip itself is not going to help you embody, aka horrible for embodiment, aka you're in agreement with what I'm saying so I don't really understand where the criticism is coming from.  

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

@Consilience There is a difference with what you and me are saying, I don't agree. Without the psychedelic trip itself, there wouldn't be the "embodiment" that happens afterwards or the opportunity for it to happen in a given case. The psychedelic catalyzes change. 

Moreover, you are not going to be able to "embody" a psychedelic journey into oneness. The notion that you really can is also false. Its showing you a glimpse of whats behind the proverbial curtain of reality in a way nothing else can. So the "horrible for embodiment" is a non sequitur. 

[Forestluv]

@Consilience Thanks for sharing your experience and insights with psychedelics. What you wrote got me reflecting about my experience with psychedelics. 

You bring up the ideas of utility and embodiment. In particular, this quote struck me: "And in my experience, these trips are only as useful as the work I put in while sober. If I dont take action to embody via mediation, yoga, sober contemplation, journalling, self actualizing without drugs, they feel pretty useless. Psychedelics dont help build my focus, calm my mind, build my equanimity, permanently increase awareness, or make me capable of facing hours upon hours of boredom."

I see this perspective a lot. That psychedelics are a temporary altered experience we can use as a tool to enrich our real sober life. I totally get that from the personal/human perspective. Yet for me, I think my first trip was so overwhelming, it destroyed this framework. . . . I made a major dosing error my first trip. I intended to take 20ug of 4-Aco-Dmt, yet took about 120ug (which is about 600-700ug of LSD). One awakening that manifested is real-ness. That trip was 100% real. It is as real as me typing on my computer right now. Not real in the sense of reflecting "wow, that trip really seemed real.". Rather. . .  real real. As if there are two worlds and neither is more real than the other. Or that there is one world in which I can no longer distinguish between "real" and "unreal". For me, there is not a temporary altered psychedelic state and an ongoing normal sober state. That distinction got obliterated my first trip and it has been permanently embodied without any integration. . . I often hear people talk about psychedelics as an altered reality in which they temporarily enter to grab some insights and then return to a normal reality and try to use the insights to enrich their sober life. It seems weird to me, because it is assuming "sober" is more real or has more relevance than "non-sober".  It seems odd to me.  It's like trying to take aspects of a dream I had on Tuesday to enrich another dream I have on Thursday. I suppose that's kinda cool in a way, yet neither dream is more real or has more relevance. It would be the same as saying I want to enter a temporary altered sober state with the intention of getting insights that can enrich my real normal psychedelic life. "How can insights from a sober trip be permanently embodied in my psychedelic life?". 

This gets me thinking about your point about long-term embodiment. . . I often hear people tell newbies to start off with small doses and work their way up. This is a gentle approach that can reduce risks and trauma. Yet I also question whether it is the most effective approach toward trans-personal awakening. An incremental approach may allow the mind and body to stay within a grounded sober reality. This grounding gets shaken up a bit during temporary trips, yet the person gets re-grounded in sobriety. This can be helpful for the mind and body to stay stable as a person. Yet, I wonder if this gradual approach can allow the mind to acclimate and build resistance to long-term embodiment. Such that the mind adapts to psychedelics and re-calibrates such that there is a "sober" that remains "normal". . . For me, the accidental heroic dose was like a 9.5 earthquake that decimated the ground. And that ground has never looked "normal" again. I was never able to re-create normalcy of sobriety or perceive psychedelics as an altered state. 

Last week I was with a devote buddhist seeking enlightenment. I started getting into deconstruction to absolute Nothing. There was really strong resonance and she was fully engaged as if she was about to have a major awakening. . . . She had a slight shift in energy and asked "Wait a minute. . .  was this a real experience or did it happen on that Meo stuff?". . . I chuckled. It was like she asked "Wait a minute. . . did this experience happen on that Tuesday stuff?". . . Normies can be comical creatures. . . I'd love to start a YT channel for normies similar to the channels that have cute cats doing silly things. . . Video clips of normies saying silly things like "Was it real or was it 5-meo?". 

 

[Consilience]

@Serotoninluv Thank you for your perspective.. That's a very good point. The distinction between tripping and sober is truly relative and one isn't more real than another. Perhaps I need to experiment with higher dosages... haha. I've stuck to moderate doses aside from one 4g mushroom tea experience which hit like a freight train. But that trip in and of itself wasn't really about awakening, bad set and setting.  

You're right. Much of what I wrote about is relative to the person, self. Even the notion of someone to embody it is hinged on self. It feels like there are qualities to enlightenment I assume are so, like equanimity, focus, tranquility, lack of suffering, which seem like states of a mind which has fully understood truth. However, I don't know if this is true. What I have noticed in my experience is that psychedelics don't seem to have this enduring mind effect I assume awakening will have on the mind. But this may be due to a lack of experience with these heroic doses. 

Welp thank you again for you input. You too, @TrynaBeTurquoise , even if I got a little feisty.  

[Forestluv]

I don't mean to encourage anyone to take heroic doses. I did it accidentally with a dosing error. Ime, breakthrough doses is a better target. If I go to high, I blackout. 

@Consilience Breakthrough doses are one approach. Another approach is tripping consecutive days until you can't handle anymore. I took it to the point that I could no longer tell what a breakthrough was - or if I was even tripping or not.  

[Inliytened1]

Would like to add that there is no doubt from what you guys have reported that pyschedelics can provide a permanent enlightened or awoken state of consciousness.

But this boredom thing and the end of suffering - a state of happiness that is not relative to circumstances - i think for some that is an ongoing purifcation / ego detachment process in which continued spiritual practices can assist.  That said it doesn't mean they are required.  For me they work great.  Leo continues to promote their continued use in his teachings so whether he personally continues it is irrelevant as every path is unique.  

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

@Serotoninluv Thank you for your perspective.. That's a very good point. The distinction between tripping and sober is truly relative and one isn't more real than another. Perhaps I need to experiment with higher dosages... haha. I've stuck to moderate doses aside from one 4g mushroom tea experience which hit like a freight train. But that trip in and of itself wasn't really about awakening, bad set and setting.  

You're right. Much of what I wrote about is relative to the person, self. Even the notion of someone to embody it is hinged on self. It feels like there are qualities to enlightenment I assume are so, like equanimity, focus, tranquility, lack of suffering, which seem like states of a mind which has fully understood truth. However, I don't know if this is true. What I have noticed in my experience is that psychedelics don't seem to have this enduring mind effect I assume awakening will have on the mind. But this may be due to a lack of experience with these heroic doses. 

Welp thank you again for you input. You too, @TrynaBeTurquoise , even if I got a little feisty.  

Its okay i dont think you got feisty. I feel my ego is still wrapped up in defending psychedelics because of how much they mean to me emotionally. 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Consilience said:

Plus I wanna know where the psychedelics only path leads! So thank you for pioneering Leo ??But for me, Ive realized psychedelics are only one piece of this work and a piece worth pursing yet not relying on.

I have never advocated a psychedelics only path. I talk about a lot of techniques besides psychedelics.