Practical ways to find out there is no free will

[Aeris]

5 hours ago, Nak Khid said:

we have free will 

predeterminism is false

No.

The fact that you ask yourself this question has been determined by a chain of causality that we cannot be aware of.

I don't even know why I choose to answer.

But in fact there is both.

In your conscious awareness you feel on free will.

You're free in the limit of what reality has given you as experience.

If you truly had free will nothing can stop you to beat Einstein or da Vinci.

But you will never be them or maybe even an artist.

You don't choose your human experience. 

Why some humans keep repeating questions. Others live their 'normal human lifes "

You never choosed.

The mindfuck total is being aware that you run on some unconscious process.

But now we call this 'conditionning'

Given by society nature family environnement.

Ho you want to be free from what you livre up ? The everything that carves the choice you do everyday ?

Even if you could stop yourself to do your old habit. That is Indeed possible you are not limited in this area.

But you are limited to the possibility you'll choose by pure instinct.

And no amount of Logic and tweeking will make this 'your' choice.

Your thinking is a reflection of 'reality'

And you don't choose reality. Reality chose you.

 

[sumire]

55 minutes ago, DaneV said:

There is no point. It just happens. Or not

The point of our existence, as I understand it from one of @Leo Gura’s videos, is to realise that we are God and create, whether consciously or unconsciously.

Causality is certainly factored into our human behaviour as previously discussed, but surely, there is some element of free will in the liberating realisation that we ourselves are not the body and therefore can respond according to its functions?

 

[Aeris]

10 minutes ago, sumire said:

The point of our existence, as I understand it from one of @Leo Gura’s videos, is to realise that we are God and create, whether consciously or unconsciously.

Causality is certainly factored into our human behaviour as previously discussed, but surely, there is some element of free will in the liberating realisation that we ourselves are not the body and therefore can respond according to its functions?

 

I explained why you're free only in your conscious awareness.

but in reality you're scripted like a character in a movie, just this script is extended, complex, and not possibly understand-able from your conscious awareness.

why do you dream this and not that ?

why do you live like this and not that ? why do you choose this thought over another ? why choosing thought ? why stop yourself to choose ? what lead your decisions ? why this external factor happen'd ? why do you have an experience as an human at all ? Why A is better than B ? Why do you choosed A answer vs B answer ?

the real is made of the same matter than "dream".

but maybe you can do "conscious dream".
doesn't mean you can escape the dream, but you're free in the dream indeed.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Aeris

[allislove]

Imagine Bob has a dream with bob dream character.
Does bob have a free will? Probably not, unless bob realises that he is not just bob, but he is Bob and always was Bob. 
Now we can say that bob has a free will to dream whatever he wants but as a Bob, not as a bob dream character.

Edit:

So, essentially, you are asking how to show bob that he is a dream character? I don't know. I would say meditation, yoga, psychedelics is the way. But maybe, as people mentioned, just tell bob to observe his thoughts. It should be clear at some point that bob doesn't create them (the same applies to actions). 

Edited November 14, 2019 by dimitri

[Forestluv]

7 hours ago, sumire said:

We have no free will over our thoughts, but is it not the case that we have the free will to choose to act on our thoughts?

For example: when you had the choice of checking the timer, a choice implies that there must be someone to make the decision. Your being, the Self, could have resolved to check the timer, or it couldn't have.

Nice inspection. . . 

I think this gets at the next layer. At first, one may realize "Thoughts just appear. I am not the author of my thoughts. However, I can choose between two thought options. I can choose to act toward one option or the other". To me, this is the next layer. Observe this choice. Is there a chooser? Is there simply the appearance of choice? Is there a subjective experience of choice? Is there a thought story of choice?

I imagine driving in my car. Sometimes my driving is automatic. I don't think "I am now facing a choice between turning on my turn signal or not. . . I am now choosing to accelerate. I am now choosing to make a left turn". Sometimes it's just automatic. I just drive and listen to music. Sometimes I sing along or think about memories of the song. . . Along the drive, there are countless "choices" being made. What speed to go, whether to brake, whether to stop or turn left. Yet are these really "choices"? Sort of, but not really. We can imagine choices are being made, yet there wasn't the subjective experience of a chooser making a choice. . . So now let's say I realize my highway exit is near. I don't have the GPS on and I don't have time to input the destination. Shoot, the next exit is here. Should I exit here? Or is it the next one?. . . Now the story and subjective experience of "choice" and a "chooser" arises. I may think "Dang. I should have been using GPS. I made a bad choice. . . . I don't know whether to choose this exit or the next exit. If I make the wrong choice, I will be late for my Doctors appointment. I'm feeling stressed now. I don't want to make the wrong choice. Ok, I will choose the exit here. I hope I am right.". . . So. . . are these simply happenings with a story and experience of "choice" overlayed on top of the happenings? Is "choice" simply imagination? Or is "choice" real? . . It's tempting to get into a duality of choice vs. no choice. This is a form of a "real" vs "imagined" duality. And it's tempting to take one side or the other. Human minds are conditioned to think in opposition. There must either be choice or no choice. . . The challenge is that we put ourselves in a binary position. Most people are conditioned to believe in choice. There is a very strong subjective experience of choice. As well choice is tightly associated with survival. Here, it is insightful to realize the opposite side of the duality. . . There is no choice or chooser. . . Yet then the temptation is to grasp "no choice" and reject "choice". We may create a website and videos about how there is no choice/chooser. We may state personal and scientific evidence. We may get into arguments. . . The next layer is to let go of the opposite side of the duality and start to see the inter-connections between the duality. Eventually the duality collapses and there is knowing of both choice/chooser and no choice/chooser. 

6 hours ago, MAYA EL said:

@Serotoninluv that is an arrogant assumption. 

Just because you meditated for a bit and didn't find an answer/ or you finally came up with one in no way means that what you found or didn't find is the absolute answer/ truth. 

So because you don't know where thoughts come from  just means you are not at a point in your awakening where you can grasp and understand the origin and reason.

A few things I think worth considering. . . The context of the thread is about free will and choice. In this context. . . When you state that the assumption is arrogant, was that a choice you made? . . . The human mind can get lulled into assuming objectivity. For some minds, this is hard wired and relative awareness is deeply subconscious. For other minds, awareness of relativity is just below the conscious level and a person just needs a little nudge. For example, we may ask the person "When you say the statement is arrogant, is that your personal interpretation or is that objectively and universally true?". . . When pressed, most people would realize that their statement is a personal interpretation - however their is an issue of underlying attachment and identification. . . Another person may get defensive and say "No, it really was arrogant. That's just how it is".

Yet clearly this isn't an objective and universal truth. How could we objectively determine if a thing is "arrogant". Would we use a computer algorithm to determine if it was objectively "arrogant"? As well, this clearly isn't universal. Even within this thread, one user said the statements were "arrogant" and another user said the statements were "good points". So obviously neither statement is universally true. 

So back to the theme of the thread. When the mind thinks "that is arrogant". Is this a choice? We could say yes, because there were lots of options available to choose from. We could say the statement was: arrogant, humble, sweet, loving, condescending, kind, rude, insulting, insightful, delusional . . . and on and on. We could create a massive list to choose from. . . We could also say there was no choice. Did the mind actually consider various ways to interpret the statements? Did the mind consider the strengths and weaknesses of each option? Did the mind narrow the options down to either "arrogant or condescending" and then finally choose that the statement was arrogant?. . . Probably not. For most minds in this situation, the stimuli goes through a lens - a feeling and thought arises that this is "arrogant". Usually, this is accepted and not question. It just is arrogant. It's obviously arrogant. The mind doesn't even question the underlying psychological dynamics. . . Yet as mentioned, when this is revealed the person may get defensive and argue that the statements are arrogant. This would be a relatively low level of consciousness (stage orange and below on SD). Or when someone reveals this the person may shift and become aware "Well, of course it's just my personal interpretation. That is so obvious." This is a higher level. From here the mind may still stay attached/identified to "this is arrogant" or there can be a letting go. Perhaps the person starts to contemplate the patterns in the own mind. The next "stage" is when one starts realizing relativity on their own and there is little attachment/identification. This gets into stage Yellow on the spiral.

Another point: conflation between absolute and relative is super common. As well, there is often conflation between objective and absolute. Here, I am expressing relative. Any expression is relative. There is realization of this and embodiment of this. This is easy to observe in one's mind body. . . When you point out "this is just your own experience and something you came up with. It's not absolute truth", I can observe my own level of development. What is my mind body response? Do I think defensively? Do I think "This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. He obviously hasn't had the direct experience". Or is the mind body in a place in which there is knowing of relativity and that any point is relative? Does the mind and body know that any contextualization of ISness is relative? . . . How does the body respond? Where their feelings of internal tension? This is a good example of how insightful simple observation of one's psychological dynamics can be. Early on in self actualization, it's super helpful to get feedback from others to help reveal underlying dynamics. Yet as we develop, the person becomes their own best teacher. Eventually there is an integration between introspection of the individual and extrospection within a collective. 

And all of this is relative and has an infinite number of interpretations. How will you choose to interpret it? Is it insightful? Is it New Age bs? Perhaps it's delusional word salad. You get to create your own reality. . . And whatever you imagine to be true is true. What is, IS. 

[Nak Khid]

Free will is the most pointless of pointless topics to discuss in my opinion

[SoonHei]

Free will is the most important topics to discuss in my opinion

[Nak Khid]

3 hours ago, SoonHei said:

Free will is the most important topics to discuss in my opinion

please explain how believing in it or not believing it has any practical application

[MAYA EL]

@Serotoninluv nice salad. my comment was based on the fact that people have found answers to the things that you have not found answers to

Now this doesn't mean that they are accurate answers and this is because multiple people have gotten multiple different answers about the same questions but the accuracy of those answer are beside the point because the point is that you project the mentality that the answers that you have are absolute which is a sign of ignorance and arrogance . Unless I have misinterpreted your message?

Edited November 15, 2019 by MAYA EL

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, MAYA EL said:

@Serotoninluv nice salad my comment was based on the fact the people have found answers to the things that he has not found answers to now this doesn't mean that they're accurate answers and this is because multiple people have gotten multiple different answers about the same question but the accuracy of the answer is beside the point the point is that he projects the mentality that the answers he does have are absolute which is a sign of ignorance and arrogance

Who are you referring to as "he"?

And the grammar is hard to read without punctuation. 

[MAYA EL]

@Serotoninluv  my apologies I was doing 2 things at once and got sloppy I have edited my comment.  

[DoubleYou]

You have waaaaaay more freedom than any ideas of free will could ever give you.

To surrender is to receive.

[Eu Sint]

Everything is an arrogant salad where a fictitious doer thinks he has free will, to choose or not to choose which spices to add to the arrogant salad he imagines. ? 

❤️Love you ❤️

[allislove]

@Eu Sint nice salad.