The importance of theory vs experience

[electroBeam]

Had a half baked insight just now.

Leo has mentioned before about the importance of theory and how the spiritual people who hate theory and just focus on experience are going in the wrong direction. Leo's argument at the time was something like theory ensures you don't get biased and brainwashed by gurus and teachers, and just experiencing isn't good enough for this reason.

 

But I've got another idea of why theory is important. 

If there was just experience, and no theory, there would be nothing to experience!

A theory is a representation of Truth (or a facet of truth). And when I say theory, I'm talking much more broadly than the contemporary meaning of theory. Your recognition of a pen is also a theory. You don't know what a pen is, you can only experience a pen in 3D (instead of 4D), your evidence of a pen has been filtered by your eyes, so what you see is not actually the pen yet you still think you're seeing a pen. Also you're able to tell us what a pen is even if it doesn't exist in front of you right now. This is all suggestive that a pen is a 'theory' to you, its a representation of truth rather than truth itself. 

 

If no theory existed, and just experience existed, how would you realize God's infinite facets? God is infinity, not these facets?? How would you have different enlightenment experiences? Coming at God from different angles? How boring would that be? 

 

See you can't realize God through these different facets just be experience alone. The way in which you realize god (which facets you realize God through) is dictated by your belief structure. This is why so many people describe their enlightenment experiences differently. A theory is a representation of reality, and the representation part is what makes all the difference. It divides you and that infinity. It confuses you into thinking that God is something that it actually isn't. And when you do realize God, you realize God through the lens of this theory. And that's how the facet is created. 

 

Haven't you noticed that the way you guys describe enlightenment is a bit different to the way Sadhguru's followers describe enlightenment? Or the way Christian monks, Buddhist monks, etc do? Haven't you noticed that so many people in spirituality fight over what God is? 

Haven't you noticed that people on here describe enlightenment experiences one way, then after Leo shoots a video (for example about Love) people start describing their enlightenment experiences completely differently? More about Love? This is because Leo is literally dictating which facet of enlightenment you are going to experience just by you watching his videos. 

 

So long story short, theory is important for making God cool. And there is nothing wrong with creating theory, in fact its a necessary component of enlightenment. 

and the interesting part is, the more theory and  stuff we create, the more ways we can see God, the more facets we can realize God through as a collective. While science IS bullshit because its a representation of truth rather than truth itself, this representation is necessary for realizing facets of God. Some super cool interesting facets at that. 

"without religion, science is blind. Without science religion is lame" -> Einstein. Can be rephrased as "without God theory is blind, without theory God is lame" 

Edited November 11, 2019 by electroBeam

[Inliytened1]

@electroBeam what you are eluding to here can also be perceived as concept VS actuality.    

Concept and theory are great for learning about the content within reality.  But to grasp the structure of reality ultimately you will need to transcend concept/theory/ideas.  Grasping reality is Actuality or becoming the present moment. (Direct experience)  I used the structure analogy because it just came up in Leo's last video so i thought it was fitting.   Here is some interesting food for thought...YOU are a concept!

But for figuring out everything within reality theory is great.

 

[Angelite]

Who created the word "theory" ? 

I think it shouldn't exist. Now when I said God, all you have in mind is theory. Not God. 

Jk. 

[electroBeam]

55 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@electroBeam what you are eluding to here can also be perceived as concept VS actuality.    

Concept and theory are great for learning about the content within reality.  But to grasp the structure of reality ultimately you will need to transcend concept/theory/ideas.  Grasping reality is Actuality or becoming the present moment. (Direct experience)  I used the structure analogy because it just came up in Leo's last video so i thought it was fitting.   Here is some interesting food for thought...YOU are a concept!

But for figuring out everything within reality theory is great.   That's what we do here... You can even study the nature of reality with theory but it won't take you all the way because it is finite and you can't ultimately grasp Infinity from the finite.

 

thankyou for the summary of Leo's latest video Now are you ready to stop being a parrot and try and understand what I was trying to say?

[Inliytened1]

@electroBeam it is what it is.  From my own direct experience i became conscious of the limitations of theory.   I didn't rely on anyone else.  But i see how you can see it that way.  

[mandyjw]

I didn't understand or appreciate the importance of theory for a long time. I didn't understand that by listening to teachers who talked about the importance of experience (like Eckhart Tolle) that I was learning theory. And for a long time I thought Leo was completely stuck on theory yet I continued to listen and learn.  I started noticing old people around me, and I noticed that some had turned into absolutely miserable people and others like my grandmother embodied the complete acceptance and presence I was looking for, but they knew nothing about enlightenment whatsoever. It was obvious that presence was something that could be cultivated and at the same time just happen. 

I was happy with that. But intelligence is seductive and "happy" was a facade. I experienced the "download" that people sometimes talk about and the term infinite intelligence and open mindedness got entirely new depths of meaning. 

 

[Inliytened1]

10 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I didn't understand or appreciate the importance of theory for a long time. I didn't understand that by listening to teachers who talked about the importance of experience (like Eckhart Tolle) that I was learning theory. 

 

@mandyjwYes we are using concept and theory right now to study the nature of reality.  (I added that to my original post) 

@electroBeam so you can leverage it for more than just content...and that works great for most things..But, that being said,  for grasping the nature of Truth you will hit a wall or a limit where theory can no longer go..that wall can only be surpassed with mysticsm.

 

[Angelite]

It is like this :

1. Bastardization of language
2. Assumption
3. Projection

 

STATEMENT

MEANING & 

EXPLANATION. 

These three are important to ensure the purity of a language. 

When you bastardize a word, for example "illusion" , then you will ruin the language. Language is a useful medium. If you spoil it, it will ruin your own people. 

If you change the meaning of love, or God, ruining your own tools. 

 

 

I've noticed this a lot when I first got into this forum;

These words are used differently

• God
• Religion
• Beliefs
• Reality
• Illusion
• Dream

Your whole reality will be limited to your own projection/assumption/meaning that you have associated with these words. There are many instances when i'm actually speaking literally but you guys projected it as beliefs&concepts. 

It's like there is a veil/filter to what could have been just It.

Why? 

 

When I said angel, that's it. An angel. Not a human being. Not animals. Not God. But an angel. A genderless creation made of light. 

[electroBeam]

31 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

 

@electroBeam so you can leverage it for more than just content...and that works great for most things..But, that being said,  for grasping the nature of Truth you will hit a wall or a limit where theory can no longer go..that wall can only be surpassed with mysticsm.

 

Of course.

What I'm talking about here is the symbiotic relationship between duality and non duality. Of course theory is limited, of course confusing theory with God causes suffering and you will hit a wall. But why did god allow that to happen? That's what I'm answering here. I'm not talking about HOW to get enlightened. I don't care about how to get enlightened in this post. I'm going meta or beyond the desire to enlighten.

I'm talking about WHY the HOW exists. I'm talking about WHY god created theory, rather than not. What the function of theory is. I'm not talking about its limitations. I don't care about its limitations in this post. I'm talking about why its there. I'm not even talking about what it does, or what it can do. I'm talking about the 'structure' of structure itself.

What I'm saying is the function/structure of theory is designed to divide you from God, so that you can experience God. Without theory, you cannot experience God. You can only Know god (and there is a massive difference between Knowing and Experiencing God). 

 

As a relative example:

if you theorise about an airplane, then you can actualize that airplane and then EXPERIENCE flying. But if it was not possible to theorise about an airplane, you could not build an airplane and EXPERIENCE it. 

 

God <-> Theory is the exact same. To Experience a certain facet of God, you need to absorb some spiritual theory, then actualize that theory, then experience that theory (or realize god through that theory).

 

There are many different facets of God: voidness, love, energy, passion, bliss, goodness. Why is that? Why are there so many different sides of the same coin? BECAUSE OF THE THEORY! THATS WHY THEORY IS IMPORTANT! You will experience god as love, if you have absorbed a lot of theory about how god is LOVE (say some christian beliefs). You will experience God as voidness, if you absorbed a lot of zen theory. etc etc etc. That's what I'm trying to say. 

And physical beings will keep producing theory for infinity, and facets of God will generate forever, enabling God to have infinite facets. 

 

This has ramifications for knowing WHAT you should create and WHAT life purpose you should have. 
 

 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, electroBeam said:

If there was just experience, and no theory, there would be nothing to experience!

One way to look at experience is as a contextualization that is occurring now. In this regard, there are no experiences, just contextualizations we call “experiences” that are occurring now. There are an infinite number of contextualizations. Therefore Nothing/Everything is experience.

2 hours ago, electroBeam said:

A theory is a representation of Truth (or a facet of truth). And when I say theory, I'm talking much more broadly than the contemporary meaning of theory. Your recognition of a pen is also a theory. You don't know what a pen is, you can only experience a pen in 3D (instead of 4D), your evidence of a pen has been filtered by your eyes, so what you see is not actually the pen yet you still think you're seeing a pen. Also you're able to tell us what a pen is even if it doesn't exist in front of you right now. This is all suggestive that a pen is a 'theory' to you, its a representation of truth rather than truth itself. 

To me, this seems like conflating representation and theory. But yea, you can create any definition of theory you want. It’s all relative.

2 hours ago, electroBeam said:

If no theory existed, and just experience existed, how would you realize God's infinite facets? God is infinity, not these facets?? How would you have different enlightenment experiences? Coming at God from different angles? How boring would that be? 

Transcend theory and find out for yourself. That’s the whole point. You cannot transcend theory by theorizing about transcending theory. You have to actually do it.

2 hours ago, electroBeam said:

Haven't you noticed that the way you guys describe enlightenment is a bit different to the way Sadhguru's followers describe enlightenment? Or the way Christian monks, Buddhist monks, etc do? Haven't you noticed that so many people in spirituality fight over what God is? 

This is all distraction and irrelevant. Cut out the middle men and realize the source for yourself. Rather than wasting time and effort worrying about others’ concepts of god, realize god for yourself.

2 hours ago, electroBeam said:

and the interesting part is, the more theory and  stuff we create, the more ways we can see God, the more facets we can realize God through as a collective.

This is infinitesimal. It’s as if you are in room 227 and think it is the Grand Hotel. Unaware it is a room within the Grand Hotel.
 

There is nothing wrong with theory or trying to make sense of things, it can be beautiful. Just like bird chirps can be beautiful. As well, theory can be very practical and useful. Yet to grasp theory is highly contracted. To be attached to theory is a mind wanting to control the narrative. There is expansion available you are not yet conscious of.

[electroBeam]

@Serotoninluv Why must we realize the source? Why can't we be born knowing the source already? Why did we forget in the first place? Why is the universe structured in a way that we must realize the source? Why is realization necessary?

When the inquiry(that produced this post) was made, it was made with the intention of trying to figure out how I should 'merge' my life purpose with spirituality, if that was even possible. It was not made to try and discover the source or have an awakening experience. In my opinion life is much more than just awakening, its about creation aswell. And I was trying to see how to reconcile the 2. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by electroBeam

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

@Serotoninluv Why must we realize the source? Why can't we be born knowing the source already? Why did we forget in the first place? Why is the universe structured in a way that we must realize the source? Why is realization necessary?

We don’t need to realize. If we were at a magic show, it’s fun to be amazed by the magic. We may think “That’s amazing!! I wonder how the magic trick works!!”. That amazement and wonder is great. We don’t need to realize how the trick works. There is actually a price to pay for this realization. . . 
 

12 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

@Serotoninluv When the inquiry(that produced this post) was made, it was made with the intention of trying to figure out how I should 'merge' my life purpose with spirituality, if that was even possible. It was not made to try and discover the source or have an awakening experience. 

My apologies. I misinterpreted your intention ? 

[Tanz]

Theory and intellect have a function.  They catalyze creation into 3D reality.  

For example: Theory: "All men(and women) are created equal"
Action: public education
Experience: people are given a chance to come from a poor neighborhood and receive a Harvard education

Action: The internet
Experience: youtube, google, actualized.org -- humans connecting, learning from one another, collective consciousness 

 

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

Of course.

What I'm talking about here is the symbiotic relationship between duality and non duality. Of course theory is limited, of course confusing theory with God causes suffering and you will hit a wall. But why did god allow that to happen? That's what I'm answering here. I'm not talking about HOW to get enlightened. I don't care about how to get enlightened in this post. I'm going meta or beyond the desire to enlighten.

I'm talking about WHY the HOW exists. I'm talking about WHY god created theory, rather than not. What the function of theory is. I'm not talking about its limitations. I don't care about its limitations in this post. I'm talking about why its there. I'm not even talking about what it does, or what it can do. I'm talking about the 'structure' of structure itself.

What I'm saying is the function/structure of theory is designed to divide you from God, so that you can experience God. Without theory, you cannot experience God. You can only Know god (and there is a massive difference between Knowing and Experiencing God). 

 

As a relative example:

if you theorise about an airplane, then you can actualize that airplane and then EXPERIENCE flying. But if it was not possible to theorise about an airplane, you could not build an airplane and EXPERIENCE it. 

 

God <-> Theory is the exact same. To Experience a certain facet of God, you need to absorb some spiritual theory, then actualize that theory, then experience that theory (or realize god through that theory).

 

There are many different facets of God: voidness, love, energy, passion, bliss, goodness. Why is that? Why are there so many different sides of the same coin? BECAUSE OF THE THEORY! THATS WHY THEORY IS IMPORTANT! You will experience god as love, if you have absorbed a lot of theory about how god is LOVE (say some christian beliefs). You will experience God as voidness, if you absorbed a lot of zen theory. etc etc etc. That's what I'm trying to say. 

And physical beings will keep producing theory for infinity, and facets of God will generate forever, enabling God to have infinite facets. 

 

This has ramifications for knowing WHAT you should create and WHAT life purpose you should have. 
 

 

Ok...i see what your intentions with the post are now..interesting insight!  But I'm not sure it holds water with Truth.  In other words, its possible for someone to not do any theory about Absolute Love - but then pop some DMT and have a mystical experience of Divine Love.   In this case, they bypassed theory altogether.   

I totally see where the WHY comes in for building airplanes - and i see where it could definitely play its Role in Life purpose and even realization of God - but again - is it ultimately necessary for the realization of God - perhaps not?  i don't think that was the WHY behind it.   Perhaps more of the WHY is so that it could explore itself but not so much that it could self realize itself.  But you could probably make the argument either way.

 

 

[electroBeam]

55 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Perhaps more of the WHY is so that it could explore itself but not so much that it could self realize itself.  But you could probably make the argument either way.

Yep possible.